sam_ellis Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>My thought is that you're going to come across as a jerk, no offense. I think you waited too long- you didn't remind them of the deadline, you've had the check for two weeks, and now you want to make a big stink less than a week before their wedding? I certainly hope that you find out the story before informing them of the new contract and penalty. You're also going to insult them by asking "what the couple can afford"? AND you're going to mention lawyers?<br> You're going to be spending 6-10 hours with this couple trying to capture the happy moments of their day, do you really want to put a negative foot forward? If they're pissy with you, are you going to get the best photos? Then if they don't like them, they can blame their mood on your attitude and they'll nitpick every detail. <br> I still say find out the story, chalk it up to a mistake on both of your parts, get paid in cash or a cashiers check, and move on. Just let them know that since there was a problem with the check that you must have cash or a cashier's check. If they can't do that, then no work will be done on the photos until after all payments are cleared.<br> Sam</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy_kay Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p><em>My thought is that you're going to come across as a jerk, no offense. I think you waited too long- you didn't remind them of the deadline, you've had the check for two weeks, and now you want to make a big stink less than a week before their wedding?</em><br> <em></em><br> I did remind them of their deadline and I've only had the check a couple of days.</p> <p><em>I certainly hope that you find out the story before informing them of the new contract and penalty.</em><br> <em></em><br> If the contract has been broken, I legally can't do the wedding. I have to pay $120 to the lawyer to draw up a new contract. It's not just a random penalty. I also have to pay $30 for overnight delivery of lenses I usually rent with the money from the wedding, but in this case have been unable to.</p> <p><em>You're also going to insult them by asking "what the couple can afford"? AND you're going to mention lawyers?</em><br> <em></em><br> I'm trying to work with them. You don't think it's more insulting if I place an ultimatium on them stating "You must have this paid in full prior to the wedding". What if they can't afford it? Does this mean I won't do the wedding.</p> <p><em>Just let them know that since there was a problem with the check that you must have cash or a cashier's check. If they can't do that, then no work will be done on the photos until after all payments are cleared.</em></p> <p>I legally cannot take pictures if there is no new contract in place. Like stated above, if a photographer does that knowing the contract was already breeched, they can get sued even if the couple never pays them.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiva Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Kay ... my immediate feedback is that it's really tough to photograph a wedding if the customer has words like "breech" and "contract" and "lawyer" all in the same sentence mere days before the wedding.</p> <p>~Who signed the check? </p> <p>~Is there any way at all of keeping the bride and groom away from this tangled web until it's straightened out?</p> <p>~I always send out a "reminder" via email on the day before the deadline. I format it to read in a way that is not suspicious or demeaning. I find success with bringing it up as a service to their busy and hectic planning schedule:</p> <p>*************************************</p> <p>Hi ___ and ____:<br /> <br /> One last bit of business before the fun starts!<br /> <br /> A quick reminder: <strong>I know things can get hectic</strong> as a wedding day approaches so a quick reminder that the final payment is due two weeks prior to your wedding day celebration (per contractual agreement :-) ). <br /> <br /> If the payment is already on it's way to us in the mail then just discard this reminder; if you've been to busy to think about it then I know you will \ appreciate the reminder.<br /> <br /> Looking forward to your wedding day photography and meeting many of the people in your circle of family and friends!!<br /> Sincerely,<br /> Bill<br /> <br /> ~Amount Due: $ ____.__</p> <p>****************************************</p> <p>If the above gets no response within 12 to 24 hours then I place a phone call and say the same thing: I am assuming they have been Incredibly Busy so I'm giving a reminder (as a service to them). This is Not helpful to you at this point; you have a tough situation for sure. </p> <p><strong>Get "the date" straightened out first: </strong> they might be thinking they dated it in April and are all worried that they've offended you so they back dated it ... you Never Know. Find out "the facts" first which it looks like you're doing but First Approach is of the spirit that you're calling as a "service" to them as you're sure they are Hectic and Busy. They may have actually written the check in April and "forgot" to send it. Just smile.</p> <p>~Even in the case of having to deal with them after the payment date has passed I'd frame everything in as positive manner as possible. It's rather easy to pleasantly convey your situation without coming across angry or perturbed (which you absolutely have a right to feel right now!).</p> <p>~Look long term: even if this gets ugly you want to be positive and loving as you turn them down and take needed steps to cover yourself. This approach will serve you well in the long term. Oh, one last tip: make sure you talk to "the right person" only ... don't get several people involved from the family side: less is more if they are the right person. Good Luck! Let us know how it turns out.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty_lowrey Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>"So I will basically ask the couple what they can afford to do and place that in the new contract. I will also charge them a fee of $150 for breech of contract and drawing up of new contract by my lawyer, which does not have to be paid until after the wedding, but must be paid in full before delivery of images."</p> <p>This is almost sure to put a stinky damper on their wedding day, and you will not come out well in this situation.<br> Call them, let them know you cannot accept a post-dated check, and let them know that a correctly dated check has to be recieved ASAP. Don't accuse, don't charge them $150 for breech of contract...honestly, none of that will work out well for you. You're going to end up with ticked off clients and bad word of mouth.<br> Do the wedding, and sit on the pictures until they pay. Don't post process anything until you have $$ in hand, and let them know this up front.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy_kay Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Well I spoke with the bride and she was very nice about the situation and I agreed to waive the contract fee if she paid in cash, which she offered to do. So the situation is worked out. I will just make up another contract myself without paying the lawyer his fee to draw up another contract and I'll just eat the costs on overnight shipping for the lens.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boinkphoto Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Yeah, I think Betty is on target - just go easy.</p> <p>The best guess is it's an honest mistake and they didn't realize forward dating the check would make you unable to cash it (I certainly didn't know that was true). Even if they did, not much is to be gained by making a stink.</p> <p>I'd just call them nicely, explain the situation, and ask that they re-issue the check properly data ASAP. If they don't comply or are a pain about it, then I'd start getting assertive about it. Until then, I'd treat it as an ordinary mistake.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS1664879711 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Did I read and understand correctly -- you pay a lawyer $150 to draw up a contract for every wedding you shoot? That is one lucky lawyer!</p> ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missy_kay Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Brian,<br> No I paid $150 for the original contract, and the lawyer stated if the contract had to be revised for any reason he would charge $120. I have yet to be in need of a revision until now.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS1664879711 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Most people couldn't turn a profit with that approach. Best of luck to you.</p> ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregory_c Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>could be a honest mistake, get corrected check, take to their bank, see if they can cash it, or check for sufficient funds.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam_ellis Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Kay,<br> I'm glad it worked out for you! You did say that the couple sent you the check a week and a half ago and hadn't said anything about sending out a reminder. Thus my statement above.<br> Sam</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natalie_l Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Kay - glad to see everything worked out well.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjmarkowitz Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>In many states a post dated check does not destroy negotiability under the UCC. Check with your bank. You may be able to deposit it. the question is whether the funds are available to pay you or not :)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_h.1 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>I am skeptical about about the case Anna described about the photographer not having to be paid. Usually when I hear storys like this its a rare instance and, more often, small but critical relevent circumstances and facts are left out of the story which cause it to make complete sense when included. I can't give advice on what to do in this and other cases as there are too may unknown variables.</p> <p>I can give advice as to this paying a lawyer for new contracts each time there is a deadline missed or something like that. I would go see the lawyer or a different lawyer to supply language and mechanisms to insert an amendment, novation or other modification so that the wheel doesn't need to be invented each time. Ask them about having a provision allowing changes at the sole written discretion of the photographer or after breach language that can be inserted to salvage the shoot if the photographer so desires.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think27 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Wow. I know some people expect payment before the wedding. In 17 years I never did. Got paid the day of... never got burned. I hold the precious images... That's all the insurance I ever needed. No pay - no proofs. easy. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_ralph1 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>A post dated check is not a true negotiable instrument in most jurisdictions. It is a request for you to make a loan, offered by the issuer/borrower and perhaps accepted by you, that contemplates payment in the future only, just like any other loan. A check is unique in credit forms that when it bounces, one can engage the police and the criminal courts in its collection. However, a post dated check is generally not regarded as a "check" for criminal law purposes. As such if this instrument should bounce, and if the police should charge the issuer with a crime, the issuers have a valid legal defense in most jurisdictions because the crime only applies to true checks. So, one's only collection mechanisms are small claims court, a collection agency or a collection attorney. The if the proud couple busted themselves in wedding prep, then they may not be very collectible for a civil debt such as simple loan for money.</p> <p>Perhaps some more financially responsible (and collectible) person would be willing to guarantee the check or the debt in writing. One could simply deposit the instrument, and in most cases the bank and clearinghouse machines will process it. If it is honored, great. If it is dishonored, then you have bank charges and a civil collection process, without the police, which will require you to absorb costs.</p> <p>One reason that a check could be post dated is because they have a cash flow problem. Or, they may want to excercise control or have leverage over you since they have not seen the final product yet. Neither situation is very good for the photographer.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagesax Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 If you feel so strongly about charging the couple all sorts of extra fees, just back out of it and take the day off. You seem way too stressed over this, to make this into a successful wedding. I'm stressed just reading all of your threats! Lawyer fees, breach of contract, writing a new contract, OMG! Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm trying to help you here, but put yourself in the brides position for a second. If you were the bride and the photographer said you breached the contract therefore you have to pay all of these extra fees would you hire this photographer? The bride can find a photographer anywhere, anytime, and at a days notice or less, perhaps for free on craigslist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagesax Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Sorry Kay, I missed your post. I didn't see that you already called the bride and worked things out. I'm glad to hear that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenweber Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Even though everything is worked out, remember that if you accept a post-dated check in some states, it is an admittance that you are accepting a check that you know is not good and you cannot go after them if it bounces.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael s. Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Over-lawyering a (comparatively) small deal involving a personal service contract to photograph a wedding = a recipe for more disputes, and more legal fees.</p> <p>This is life, which means (i) mistakes are made, and (ii) people sometimes are short of money. People occasionally miss a contract deadline, inadvertently or not. Checks can be mis-dated -- sometimes post-dated; sometimes dated last year -- again, inadvertently or not.</p> <p>A set up that requires you to pay legal fee$ for consultation and redrafting each time a problem arises may be a good thing for the lawyer (in the short run), but a <em>bad thing</em> for your business.</p> <p>Last thing: Cannot recommend posting here under your business name while suggesting that others (your clients) may be misbehaving.</p> <p>/s/ Ornery old lawyer</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_bryant1 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>I'm new to this forum, but I've been reading threads for a couple weeks now. There's a lot of great photographic advice to be had here. As for legal advice, looks to me that the legal advice in this photography forum is every bit as good as the photographic advice you'd get in any law forum.</p><p>I'm glad to hear this particular situation has worked out well.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>Interesting thread. <br> <br> Maybe I am a bit too relaxed, but, I've always worked with three payments or half and half. . . and as per Mary's point: the cussy never gets an eyacky at the pickies until they cough up the bickies – <br> <br> Translation: the Client does not get to view any previews until final payment is made.<br> <br> As for cheques: Banks here ARE very fussy. A post-dated cheque would never make it through the system nor would one with the "Pay To" name incorrectly spelled, incomplete or altered (like with a different pen) - however banking laws and bank's liabilities regarding cheques and their clearance, might be different from country to country.<br> <br> As for, mistakes clients make, making assumptions, extra contracts, lawyers, e-mail correspondence and extra fees for breach and the like - many offered the same view, but Ian summed it up: "Phone them, be polite, explain and resolve." . . . <br> <br> Anything “extra” assumed, implied or mentioned will be / is a burden to your business and to your customer relations, not to mention your own stress level, which Bob has indeed already mentioned. <br> <br> WW </p> <p > </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyphotopro Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 <p>If you think you had a problem getting payment just to do the shoot, just wait until you try to get paid for the prints and albums. Don't turn a thing over to them without payment in cash (get a counterfeit detection pen from Office Depot or Staples to check the currency they give you!)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_gale Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 <p>Is the chck from a local bank, or one were you can get to a branch soon? Ask the couple for a new check and cash it within the hour. If it works, excelent, go and shoot the wedding, if not, give up and hope they can find someone who will work for them for free.</p> <p>Dont tear up the check, it could win you a court caseif need be.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmz17 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 <p>Oh my &dei! I can't say I envy you wedding photographers one bit. Being a freelance IT consultant myself, I simply refuse to work with private customers. They don't understand business, they don't usually have the money and they expect miracles.<br> I understand why this attitude doesn't work for wedding photography, but really, wouldn't just taking pictures of drying paint be more fun than all the hazzles I read about ;-)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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