neil_everitt Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 <p>Bob, <br> It would appear that the level of CPS service offered varies wildly around the world. The platinum and gold service to which you refer in the US does not appear to be available in the UK - and it is the first time I have ever heard of it. <br> On three occasions that I have approached Canon for repairs under CPS in the UK, I was never quoted any repair turn around shorter than two weeks – not the within six days they quote on the US CPS. Maybe I was unlucky but I don't consider two weeks to be much of a professional advantage. <br> The last time I needed a repair – a broken shutter on a 1DMkll last summer – I didn't even bother to contact CPS. I had it fixed within five days by an independent repairer. The cost was around £300 if I remember correctly. Perhaps someone on here who has had a similar repair carried out by CPS in the UK could tell me how much their "discounted" repair was and how long it took, just for comparison.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fj5 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 <p>Anyone know how to get a hold of CPS Canada? Do they even exist?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 <p>I don't know, but if you call the Canon customer support number for Canada (I assume they must have one?), I'm sure they'll be able to tell you.</p> <p>The only number I have for Canon Canda is their main office number. It's (905) 795-1111</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fj5 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 <p>I emailed customer support through their contact us page and I usually get an answer back in a day max. I haven't heard from them in about a week. Even google doesn't pop up anything which is rather odd. Thanks Bob, I'll try the number.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fj5 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 <p>Follow up to those who may also want to know:<br> All questions regarding CPS in Canada are to be directed to <a href="mailto:cpsinquiries@canada.canon.com">cpsinquiries@canada.canon.com</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des adams Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <p>If it costs $500 MORE just to get good service what is that saying? Good service should go without saying, after all one has already paid for the product. This is quite a shifty little scheme if you take the time to think about it. Buy more stuff to qualify then give us $500 ... oh wow.<br> :)))</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <p>You can't give 48hr turnaround to everyone unless you have a huge repair deaprtment that sits idle much of the time just waiting for work to come in. These days that's not something most companies can afford to do. Do you fix things in the order that they arrive, so the $200 broken A520 P&S from Aunt Betty gets worked on before the EOS 1ds MkIII from a CPS member? That's the question. You can try to give everyone decent service (say a 14 day turnaround), but if you want priority 48hr treatment then you have to pay for the extra staff to cover it.</p> <p>Nobody has to join CPS, nobody has to pay $100 for gold or $500 for platinum status. That's a choice you can make (if you qualify - see later). This is not a "bitch-fest" against Canon. The problem here is that a percentage of working professional photographers who actually WANT to join CPS can't do so because they don't own enough of the "right" equipment to qualify. And even if they do, unless they keep upgrading it, it's likely that their qualifying items will eventually be dropped from the "approved" list when new models are introduced. That's the issue.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zml Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <blockquote> <p >unless they keep upgrading</p> </blockquote> <p ><em>(Please read the entire post before reacting..)</em> There is something I don’t get it here: if you depend on your equipment for livelihood(and CPS is meant for people like that…) and want to deliver high(est) quality photos with digital, you need to upgrade often, no matter what. In the film era, I’d replace a worn-out Canon F1 with another F1 and do it rather infrequently: I’d shoot 20-30K frames a year so the body would last a long time even if it did require a shutter or a clutch exchange. And if I wanted higher resolution, I’d simply switch to a different film or work on my technique. With digital, I shoot 75-100K frames a year and must upgrade the camera body to get higher-res files. One of my 40D bodies has already over 70K actuations, not to mention the 1D3: both have over 100K already. And these numbers are not unusual; in fact I’d say that I’m a bit on a low end of the number of shutter actuations per year. In a word, you need to replace the equipment often with current models, so often in fact that a working pro shouldn’t have any problems with qualifying based on the current US CPS equipment list.</p> <p >Besides, CPS or not, I get very good service from Canon as opposed to many horror stories with some other manufacturers (Mamiya, Hasselblad, Arca Swiss come to mind…) so the courtesy of faster turnaround to CPS members means a few days, not weeks or months, faster than for non-members.</p> <p >I’m afraid that the CPS membership is more of an ego trip for some than a real necessity but AFAIK there are no “knowing glances”, no secret handshakes: CPS membership is meant chiefly for equipment repair/loan convenience even though Canon may sometimes ask questions, seek feedback from its members or offer educational opportunities and token “freebies.” If you need these conveniences and you qualify –pony up a few bucks and enroll. But if one craves to join a professional association solely because of the need of belonging, one should pick one that attracts people with similar interests (NPPA for PJs, NPN for nature photogs, etc.) not the CPN/CPS. </p> <p >As with any other arbitrary requirements some deserving people will be left out no matter what: equipment alone professional photographer does not make and there are legions of folks who do wonderful paid work using Rebels and such and who need/want to join CPS, and they should contact Canon and ask for changes in the program but don’t expect that Canon will allow all equipment to qualify; there always will be a fairly high equipment hurdle.</p> <p >Opinions differ and I’m not trying to defend anything or anybody here but the new CPS program in the US is in its first year and I have a feeling that Canon might fine-tune it based on constructive feedback even though the grumbling about the new rules seems to be confined to the ‘net.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil_everitt Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <blockquote> <p>The problem here is that a percentage of working professional photographers who actually WANT to join CPS can't do so because they don't own enough of the "right" equipment to qualify. And even if they do, unless they keep upgrading it, it's likely that their qualifying items will eventually be dropped from the "approved" list when new models are introduced. That's the issue.</p> </blockquote> <p>But, Bob, why do they want to join? Is it more an ego thing that suddenly they are not perceived as "professional" photographers by Canon, because no one has yet answered my question as regard to tangible benefits, certainly here in the UK. <br> I would like to believe that CPS in the UK could offer me a much better service at a cheaper price than I could get from an independent repairer but, so far, no-one has yet been able to come up with any evidence to show that that is the case.<br> If so, I suggest that people move on. Who cares if Canon no longer classify you as professional? After all, "cowboy" builders would be classified in their particular trade as a "professional" – they earn their living from the building trade but how many of them get repeat jobs or jobs by recommendation?<br> I would maintain that professionalism cannot be measured by how much of your living is earned from photography, just as it can't be in any other trade. There are some dreadful exponents of the art of photography out there who still manage to find someone stupid enough or gullible enough to employ them. No, professionalism is a state of mind, craft and attitude, providing great results for clients on time, again and again, irrespective of whether you earn 100% of your income from photography or 1%.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil_everitt Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <p>I couldn't agree more with Michael Liczbanski.<br> My old F1s I used to be able to keep for 10-15 years or more and EOS film gear for 10 or so. In the, what, 6 or 7 years since the introduction of the 1D, I have had a succession of Mkls, Mklls and Mkllls just to keep up with the vast improvements in quality that each successive model has brought. And I feel I owe that to the clients I work for. <br> And don't tell me photographers can't afford it. I didn't drop my charges when I went digital because although I saved the expenditure of film, chemicals, processing, etc, this money was instead re-allocated to keeping up with the new technology, i.e. investing in equipment.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <p>Sure, upgrading is something we all do. However (for example), the EF 200/2.8L II is a qualifying lens, but the EF 200/2.8 L isn't! The difference between these two lenses is small, no real incentive to upgrade. The EF 200/1.8L isn't a qualifying lens, but the 200/2L IS is. Some might argue that the 200/1.8L is actually better, especially for indoor sports (which is where it's probably most used). The EF 85/1.2 L doesn't qualify, but the 85/1.2L II does. Now the new MkII version is better, but not all that much better and I'm sure many will be able to do perfectly good, professional, work with the 85/1.2L. And so on.</p> <p>While some may regard having the latest and greatest version of everything as essential for professional work, others realize that once you have good gear, it stays good gear. There's really no need to "upgrade" every time a new product appears. I don't really think the standards of professional photography are getting higher and higher every year (some may in fact argue the reverse!) and if you can do professional work with a 5D and a 200/2.8L II today, you may not feel the need to "upgrade" to a 5D MkII and (if it ever appears) and IS version of the 200/2.8L.</p> <p>Again (for those who missed it), this isn't in any way a discussion of WHY someone would WANT to join CPS. It's a discussion of why <em>only</em> equipment (and a subset of the latest equipment at that) is taken into consideration as a qualification for those who do want to, to the exclusion of professionals who don't happen to own the necessary set of (two) "approved" cameras and (three) "approved" lenses.</p> <blockquote> <p>As with any other arbitrary requirements some deserving people will be left out no matter what: equipment alone professional photographer does not make and there are legions of folks who do wonderful paid work using Rebels and such and who need/want to join CPS, and they should contact Canon and ask for changes in the program but don’t expect that Canon will allow all equipment to qualify; there always will be a fairly high equipment hurdle.</p> </blockquote> <p>But why, and why an "arbitrary" equipment requirement. If it's Canon PROFESSIONAL Services, why not a "professional" requirement. They don't call it "Canon Approved-Set-of-Equipment Services". In fact no proof at all of professional status is now required (it used to be). If you say that you are a professional, they simply believe you. In some ways it's like the old "no income verification" mortgages. If you said you could pay it, they believed you. Look what happened there...</p> <p>Maybe they should just have changed the name. If they'd called it "Canon Platimum Program", available for advanced equipment users for $500/yr, I suppose nobody could argue with them!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zml Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <blockquote> <p>if you can do professional work with a 5D and a 200/2.8L II today, you may not feel the need to "upgrade" to a 5D MkII</p> </blockquote> <p>Well, true, but with very few exceptions of the "infrequent shutter pushers" your 5D is going to fall apart if you make your living with it: 30 weddings a year times 2-3K pics per wedding gives an awfully high number of actuations. And when it does fall apart, or gets relegated to a backup status, most shooters tend to upgrade to 5D Mk next , or a higher-end camera, instead of getting another "new-old-stock" 5D Mk. previous (if still available...) That alone keeps your equipment list fairly current.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil_everitt Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <blockquote> <p>While some may regard having the latest and greatest version of everything as essential for professional work, others realize that once you have good gear, it stays good gear. </p> </blockquote> <p>That may be true with, to a large degree, with lenses but not so with digital camera bodies. The 1DMkl was a good camera; in my opinion, the first true digital alternative to film cameras for sports/press work. However, the Mkll provided a significant improvement and, despite some people's experiences to the contrary, the Mklll a further leap forward. The Mkl was a good camera but, from the point of view of taking the best quality pictures, it cannot stand comparison to a Mklll. </p> <blockquote> <p>If it's Canon PROFESSIONAL Services, why not a "professional" requirement. They don't call it "Canon Approved-Set-of-Equipment Services". In fact no proof at all of professional status is now required (it used to be). If you say that you are a professional, they simply believe you.</p> </blockquote> <p>This assumes that you accept the definition of professional as being someone who earns all or a majority of their income from photography. See my response above. There are "cowboys" and incompetents in every profession. They still manage to find some mug to give them work. When busy, I have in the past subbed work to others or suggested where customers might find someone to work for them. On many occasions I have been embarrassed at the quality of photos and level of service that has subsequently been provided. Yet these, by definition, are professional? <br> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zml Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 <blockquote> <p>So now, if you afford the latest equipment, albeit you're a retired truck driver, you're a professional and qualify for Canon CPS. I get it.</p> </blockquote> <p>Well, apparently you don't "get it" because one must still declare one's pro status quite explicitly while enrolling. Whether or not one is truthful, it is a matter of personal integrity. (My apologies for bringing up this - apparently alien - concept...)<br />Those seeking the real skinny about the US CPS 2009 program should log on to the Canon USA CPS pages and read the rules and conditions for themselves.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 <p>Canon's definition of professional is that you make more than 50% of your income (I think they actualy say 51%). As I said above, they take your word for it, no proof required.</p> <p>If you make $5000/year and $2501 comes from photography, you're a pro. If you make $200,000/year and you only make $99,999 from photography, then you're not.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fj5 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 <p>FWIW, when I spoke to Canon Canada over the phone regarding my desire to apply for CPS Canada, he asked me if I make 99% of my income through photography. He never mentioned anything around the 50% mark. Is this something strictly stated for US? </p> <p>Anyone know why CPS Canada does not publically list their terms and conditions? Why the only contact info I have for them is a single email address? Do I sense a bit of "secret society"-ism here?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 <p>Canon USA state:</p> <blockquote> <p><a name="#3"><strong>3.</strong></a><strong> What constitutes a full time professional photographer? <br /></strong>A full time professional photographer is defined as someone who derives at least 51% of his or her annual income from photography.</p> </blockquote> <p>I do sense a lack of coordination (contact?) between the various Canon CPS groups around the world. Requirements and benefits seem to differ.</p> <p>I'd say that requiring 99% of income via photography is probably NOT the official requirement since I'm not sure anyone would qualify for that if they have any investments at all! Even 99% of earned income would be unreasonable.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglas lee Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 <p>Found this on another forum, thought I would pass along the info:</p> <p><strong>Items added to equipment eligibility list for <a href="http://www.digitalweddingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=269725">CPS</a> membership qualification:</strong><br />EOS-1D<br />EF 85/1.2L USM<br />EF 28-70/2.8L USM<br />EF 35-350/3.5-5.6L USM<br />EF 70-200/4L USM</p> <p>Also, CPS email in US is <a href="mailto:cpsmember@cusa.canon.com">cpsmember@cusa.canon.com</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_larson1 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 <p>Hot dang. Including the 70-200/4L, I have FOUR lenses on this list. All I have to do is aquire another 40D, and I qualify? Hot Dang. To0 bad my 10D, my flash units, and my pile of primes don't count.</p> <p>Oh wait . .I have to <em>earn</em> 51% of my income on canon. .as opposed to <em>spend</em> 51% of my income? Oops.</p> <p>Honestly though. . as an amateur, I have no interest in this service so I would not be inclined to <em>fake</em> credentials to get in. In terms of prestige. . if my IMAGES don't do it. . if my SACK of camera equipement doesn't do it. . the CPS card won't do it either.</p> <p>And honestly. . I don't have enough problems with Canon equipment to warrent fibbing or <em>paying</em> for the premium repair services.</p> <p>Now, if I was a PRO, relying on the Canon equipment to the point of requiring two (or more) bodies. . .I would probably start having redundant <em>lenses</em> as well. Afterall, The Krebelobock Wedding is not going to have CPS event support. If a 24-70/2,8L breaks. . . I better be able to whip out another lens be it a 24/1.4L or a 17-40/2.8L within minutes.</p> <p> And <em>paying</em> $500 for <em>expedited</em> repair support. . .just sounds expensive. How many of these things am I going to break in a year? Geez. . .I I broke a $1800 (or whatever) 85/1.2L today. . .I probably could get one from B&H <em>tomorrow</em> without paying a $500 premium .. . .which in many cases I would have to do regardless.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatkins Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 <p>Yes, but for that $500 you also get a 60% discount on eligible items. So if your repair costs for the year come out to $1000, you're $100 bucks in pocket! Plus you get 6 free "clean and adjusts".</p> <p>You don't need that many repairs or "clean and adjusts" on high ticket items to rack up $1000, especially if your gear takes a beating.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 <p>The problem with this policy is that many amateurs, who don't need fast turnaround on repairs, meet the equipment requirements but many pros don't. It's incredibly stupid.<br> <br /> I shoot fights. All I need for what I do is a 24-70, which I have, and maybe a 70-200, which I have rented but don't usually need for shots that can be published. I have a qualifying body, but exactly one lens that qualifies. It doesn't matter that I do regular assignment work for magazines, promoters and gyms, and get regular book publication through an agent, apparently to the people running the program, what you own is more important than what you do.<br> <br /> On the other hand, I have no problems with Canon service, and when I have explained when I need something back, they always comply. So maybe I should be happy, I don't have to join their program but my needs get met.</p> Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakim_peled1 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 <blockquote> <p>The problem with this policy is that many amateurs, who don't need fast turnaround on repairs, meet the equipment requirements but many pros don't. It's incredibly stupid.</p> </blockquote> <p>Why? Canon chose to focus on pros because pros <strong>need</strong> these advantages, while amateurs only <strong>want</strong> them. Also, I'll bet most pros do qualify. I - as an amateur - almost qualify in terms of gear. All I need is another body and I'm sure that if I was a pro I'd buy one. </p> <p>Happy shooting,<br> Yakim.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fj5 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 <p>FYI:</p> <p>Thank you for your interest in the Canadian Canon Professional Services<br />program. CPS is a great program for professional photographers who generate<br />100% of their income from photography and who use or are considering using<br />Canon photographic equipment. Please fill out this CPS application form<br />and mail it back to us with the appropriate required information. Please<br />note that if complete information is not supplied, approval to CPS can not<br />be administered. Please allow 4-8 weeks for processing.</p> <p>**IF APPLICABLE: Please note that we now require a hardcopy of your Retail<br />Sales Tax Purchase Exemption Certificate (PST) to be mailed with your<br />application, Vendor Permits will not be accepted**</p> <p>Should you have difficulty opening and viewing these attachments, please<br />follow this link to install the latest version of the Adobe Acrobat Reader.<br> <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html">http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html</a></p> <p>(See attached file: ONT PST Exemption Form.pdf)(See attached file: CPS<br />Application Form ENGLISH.pdf)<br> <br />(Embedded image moved to file: pic08953.jpg) </p> <p>-----</p> <p>100%?!?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas_abbott1 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 <p>NOTE: Canon has updated the list of qualifying bodies and lenses. Old favorites such as the original 1D and 1Ds, as well as the original 85 f/1.2 and the 28-70 f/2.8 are on the list. Somebody at Canon has listened (or read this thread).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakim_peled1 Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 <blockquote> <p>Somebody at Canon has listened (or read this thread).</p> </blockquote> <p>I wish..... :-(</p> <p>Happy shooting,<br> Yakim.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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