Initial foray into 4x5

[musings]

<p>I have been doing more shooting of landscapes and architectural scenes lately and am now looking into 4x5 field cameras. I will also be carrying some DSLR gear, so I want to have good portability in 4x5 and have been intrigued by the Toyo 45CF (although there appears to be several really good brands in the basic 4x5 category). The DOF and perspective control make 4x5 a no-brainer for me, especially considering the relatively low prices.</p>

<p>Considering that I will be shooting more wide-angle shots and vistas, I was leaning towards a 90mm or 115mm for a first lens. The 115mm may be a bit too long, so I will likely go with the 90mm. The 45CF lacks a wide-angle bellows option, so 90mm is the widest Toyo recommends.</p>

<p>I know this members of this group have been long-time users of 4x5, so any additional perspectives and advice you have would be welcomed. Thanks in advance!</p>

[richterjw]

<p>I have just begun LF within the last couple of years. My favorite part is the huge negatives. It makes me want to use 8x10. I have a Calumet 4x5, which is not comfortably portable but is serviceable. I hope you enjoy. JR</p>

[bruce_watson1]

<p>Don't start with a 90mm lens. It's not a good starter focal length. Start with a normal focal length, like 150mm or 135mm. It's much easier to learn how to use movements if you can see what you are doing. Starting with a 90mm lenses will likely frustrate you, maybe to the point of throwing you off LF entirely. Go <a href="http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?searchid=2728133">here</a> and do a search. It's been said many times, and not just by me.</p>

[musings]

<p>Bruce -- ok, good advice. The 135/150mm route may be too long for landscape use, but it would be good for learning the T/S movements. Once I get the hang of that, I will move to a wider lens for the field use.</p>

[brucecahn]

<p>I have heard a lot of complaints about the CF Toyo. Several people have tried to sell me theirs in my LF camera store. I think you should consider something else. As said above, the 135 is a good basic lens for 4x5 landscapes, and I have found the 90 to be very good for that purpose as well. If you have both of those it will cover most situations. Get a camera that will give you movements with the 90.</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>Hi Jeff, welcome to LF--it begins with spending money<g>. I've used a CF Toyo that a friend of mine owned (he recently sold it). I rather liked it. Nice build, compact, and did the basics. I use a Toyo 45F monorail as my kick around camera, a Sinar X for what little commercial work I do in LF these days, but a Crown Graphic for most of my outdoors work. The Crown is very capable, cheap to get into, and works well with both wide and long lenses. But if you find a good CF, I wouldn't hesitate. I've also seen good cameras from Horseman and others, but the real advantage of the Toyo CF (in my mind) is its light weight. If your system is too heavy or burdensome, you won't use it.</p>

<p>If, what you want to do is capture as much landscape as possible, I wouldn't hesitate getting a 90mm, if that's really what you want. But I'd definitely keep in mind you'll want something longer. I would only give this advice if you're looking for wide panoramic type landscapes, which are seldom the case with my landscape work.</p>

<p>I shoot more long lens landscape as I do wide angle, which is undoubtedly why Bruce wants you to consider a longer focal length. Let me give you an example (albeit with a Hasselblad). In this shot, I could easily have attached a 50 or 40mm WA to my camera and captured all kinds of stuff. But instead, I used a 150mm lens (about 90mm or so on 35mm format, or 300mm on 4x5). I liked the compression it gave me. I'm sorry I don't have a similar scan handy of a 300mm on 4x5 (which I shoot all the time), but the scans are rather big.</p>

<p>Another consideration derived from Bruce's advice is that a wide lens, like the 90mm is not terribly useful in doing closer up work, like the stuff you might see of leaves, flowers, ferns, and that sort of thing. A good focal length for those type of subjects is 150mm to 210mm. If you've got to have a 90mm, I wouldn't disuade you from buying one (don't buy the f/5.6 version because it will probably be too big to fit into the body of a field camera while carrying it). But plan on getting a longer lens too. (sorry if you've seen this pic recently, but I don't like to put too much work on the web).</p><div></div>

[bruce_watson1]

<p><em>I shoot more long lens landscape as I do wide angle, which is undoubtedly why Bruce wants you to consider a longer focal length.</em></p>

<p>Michael, please, don't put words in my mouth. I said exactly what I meant. I'm not pushing any style of photography or any selection of lenses after the learning curves have been climbed. I'm just passing on my experience that a short lens makes it more difficult to learn movements. So would a really long lens, especially a telephoto design, but the OP didn't ask about that.</p>

[musings]

<p>@ Bruce and Michael -- thanks for the great input, much appreciated. One of my first observations re: LF was the breadth of good, comparable cameras available in 4x5. I do like the portability of the CF, which is an important consideration, and I will likely choose 135mm for the first lens. I do like the compressed DOF and the format is big enough to capture most of the landscape shots I need. I will likely add the 90mm once I get a handle on the lens plane movements at 135mm. Beautiful photo, Michael, btw!</p>

<p>Thanks again, guys, for the continued education...cheers, Jeff</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>Okay Bruce. I'll take it back then. Bruce, btw, thought I'd mention your website isn't coming up.</p>

[AJG]

<p>One way to think about the lens question is to remember what focal lengths you like for landscape in 35 or MF. The multiplier from 35 to 4x5 is about 3.6--the 90 is about equivalent to 25 mm or so, and the 115 is closer to a 32 on 35 mm. The other issue is covering power--most 135s on 4x5 won't allow much in the way of movements, especially lens movements, while a 115 (if it is the Rodenstock or Caltar f/6.8 version) will nearly cover 8x10, thus allowing lots of movement on 4x5. I don't recall if Toyo makes recessed lens boards for their field cameras, but they would allow movements with short focal length lenses. They are definitely a compromise in terms of convenience, though. </p>

[friedemann_pistorius]

<p>Some wooden folders should be considered, too. Some of them have backs that can be moved forward for better use of w/a lenses, i.e. Shen Hao and Tachihara 4x5 cameras.</p>

<p>If money is no concern, Ebony makes very nice field cameras, some of them being non-folders, which are especially designed for use with w/a lenses.</p>

[musings]

<p>I looked at the Shen Hao and the Tachihara, too...very beautiful cameras for sure. The Tachihara is especially noticeable with the dark wood and gold brackets and knobs.</p>

[doremus_scudder1]

<p>FWIW, I use a Wista DX for most of my field work, especially when I have to hike a long way. Its design allows a lens to be stored in the folded camera. Most other designs require the lens to be dismounted before folding the camera (not sure about the Toyo). This is a big issue for me, since weight and compactness are important. I can carry the Wista and four (compact) lenses in a fanny pack. My WF Ektar 100mm, 135mm Nikkor/135mm WF Ektar, 150mm Nikkor, 203mm f7.7 Ektar and 240mm Fuji A all fit in the camera folded, so I can pretty much leave whichever lens on the camera I was last using (or anticipate using next). </p>

<p>I use a 90mm SA f.8 and a 75mm Fuji on recessed lensboards as well. The DX has enough movements to vignette both. The downside is the 300mm bellows draw, which makes using longer lenses difficult. I have an extended lensboard for use with 300mm lenses, but longer on this setup is not practical. </p>

<p>If you decide to look at the DX, be aware that there is a DXII, which is the same camera without the shift feature. The shift, for me, is indispensable, so I would not consider the DXII. Wistas come up on the online auctions for relatively cheap from time to time. A good used one can be a significant savings.</p>

<p>On my last trip to the SW, I carried the following lenses when hiking rather long distances. 75mm Fujinon SWD, 100mm Wide-Field Ektar or 90mm SA f.8, 135mm Nikkor W (I know this lens often gets bad reviews, but mine is really sharp...), 203mm Ektar, and a 240mm Fujinon A and/or a 300mm Nikkor M (all depending on space, length of trip, anticipated subjects, etc.) All of them except the 75mm and the 300mm on the extended board fold up in the camera.</p>

<p>Of all the above, by far the most used was the 135mm. I like my 90mm as well, but used the 75mm suprisingly often this last trip. I don't think I would want to go into the field without at least four lenses. Often I will choose a "lens kit" depending on the subjects I expect to encounter. For example, in close quarters in the slot canyons I would carry 75mm, 90mm, 135mm 150mm and 240mm. Out on the dunes in Death Valley, where I often like to pull things in close, I carried 100mm, 135mm 203mm 240mm and 300mm (I manage four lenses in the camera pack and one in with the filmholders, so five lenses is my maximum unless, of course, my beatiful assistant/hiking partner/wife volunteers to carry one or two...) For some reason, I don't use my 150mm that much; I prefer the 135mm focal length, which can be cropped a bit to get the 150mm view.</p>

<p>Pardon me if I'm a bit talkative today.... This got longer than I anticipated. Hope it helps some.</p>

<p>Best,</p>

<p>Doremus Scudder</p>

[musings]

<p>Thanks, Doremus -- all great input and much appreciated. I am not sure why Wista would not have the shift capability on the DXII -- I am scratching my head over that one. Btw, the Toyo 45CF does allow the camera to fold with the lens still attached, but I ended up getting the Toyo 45CX instead because it was a killer deal (see my later post on this). I will be lacking a lot of portability in going this route, but $200 for the lens board, 90mm lens, W/A bag bellows, and ground glass made this purchase a no-brainer. In due time, I will be getting a true 4x5 folder, and I will give the Wista DX a serious look. Cheers, Jeff</p>

[pete_watkins3]

<p>Jeff,<br>

I've been using a Wista DX for 8-9 years now. I have other 4x5 / 5x7 cameras but for 4x5 I rate the Wista. I can even squeeze a 65 mm Super Angulon on to the front of the camera, without a recessed lensboard,, movements are limited to front rise & fall but it works.<br>

Best wishes,<br>

Pete</p>

[musings]

<p>Thanks, Pete. For a true folder, the Wista DX, Toyo 45CF and Tachihara all appear to be fine choices. The 45CX is actually more compact than I originally envisioned, but it doesn't have the convenience of a true folder. For now, though, I am going to get a sturdy box for the CX for "luggability". </p>

<p>I am hooked on 4x5 photography now. Fascinating stuff...so simple yet so complex. I will post some first photos in the coming month.</p>

[dan_south]

<blockquote>

<p>Bruce -- ok, good advice. The 135/150mm route may be too long for landscape use, but it would be good for learning the T/S movements. Once I get the hang of that, I will move to a wider lens for the field use.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The 135 and 150mm lenses on 4x5 are not "too long" at all. One of my favorite 4x5 landscape lenses is the 180mm. There were many times when I was frustrated that 210mm wasn't long ENOUGH, so I bought a 240. I wasn't a big fan of "normal" focal lengths when I shot small format, but I learned to appreciate them (135, 150, 180) when I switched to LF.</p>

[musings]

<p>I agree with you, Dan, and there is the distinct advantage of compressed DOF with the longer focal lengths. My "killer deal" on the 45CX came with a Graphex 90mm so I will need to acquire a more standard length lens as well. I am already shopping around for a 150mm. Cheers, Jeff</p>

[dan_south]

<p>Well Jeff, in the interest of full disclosure I must confess that my most often-utilized 4x5 lens is the 90mm. It was my first LF lens, too. (I didn't follow my own advice!) The 90 isn't too tough to work with, but sometimes the edges and corners of the frame are difficult to see in dark conditions.</p>

<p>Joe Cornish uses the 90 for a lot of his work, so I guess we're in good company. Best of luck to you!</p>

 

[musings]

<p>Thanks, Dan...much appreciated! You LF photographers have one of the best kept secrets in the photography world. I didn't realize how much fun (and hard work) LF could be, but I am very happy to have been introduced to it. It's a blast! Cheers, Jeff</p>

[ben_collier]

<p>Jeff,<br>

<strong>Andrew Gillis'</strong> response is spot on. Look at your 35mm/MF portfolio and determine your most used focal length. That should be a clue for chosing the equivalent focal length of your first lens. Go from there as you build your system.<br>

Modern lens brands? As long it covers 4x5 with adequate movement to fit <strong>your</strong> photographic style, flip a coin. There are so many folks that love write incessantly about technical lens aspects that are barely relevant for field work, it makes me believe they rarely leave the practice tee to play the course. Much like career academicians that live vicariously and have no real world experience upon which to base there theories.<br>

Choosing a camera is much more difficult. Gaining insight from other people's experience can be a great indicator, but the chance that their style and preferences are the same as yours is quite remote. At the end of the day, do your own homework, be accountable, make a decision to buy your camera, not their's.<br>

If this is your first foray into photography, then large format may not be the right initial choice. It seems to typically be more of an evolutionary step after being comfortable with (at least) basic photographic fundamentals.</p>

 

[musings]

<p>Hi Ben -- thanks for your input, much appreciated. This is not my first foray into photography -- I have shot for 20+ years in 35mm and 120/220 and now DSLR. It is my first foray into 4x5, however, and I am having a ball with it so far. I have read up on the Scheimpflug Principle and am getting the hang of tilt/swing/rise/fall. Having prior experience in photographic techniques has been very helpful for me, and since I have always been a physics nut, reading about Scheimpflug is very fun also. Cheers, Jeff</p>

[ben_collier]

<p>Jeff,<br>

After 20 years, choosing you first and subequent lens focal lenths should be a no-brainer. Hope you enjoy the looking at that wonderfully huge image on the ground glass as much as I do.<br>

As you point out, there are a number of great camera choices. I use a Toyo 45AII (the 45AX is the same camera without the revolving back) and shoot only landscapes with lenses from 75-400T (can shoot down to a 47XL, albeit without much in the way of front movements). Since I use rear tilt to focus, it's not really and issue. The downside to the Toyo field cameras is that they have limited movements, don't have a bellows option and may not be regularly suitable for architectural photography, depending on your style. I suspect this is the trade-off for the compactness and portability with other field brands as well.<br>

Put Scheimie away and shoot!</p>

 

[musings]

<p>Thanks, Ben! I <strong>*do*</strong> enjoy looking at that beautiful image on the ground glass! It's a joy to behold. I can't imagine trying to focus this baby without a focusing loupe, though...really need that in the corners especially. What fun this is...I think you guys have the best gig going in the photography world by far...</p>

[bohdan_pryszlak]

<p>¡ʎdɐɹƃoʇoɥd lɐəɹ ˙ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ sƃuıɥʇ əʞıl oʇ puəʇ əʍ ˙plɹoʍ əɥʇ əəs əʍ ʎɐʍ əɥʇ oʇ əɯoɔləʍ</p>

<p> </p>