Zone VI Studios buyback???

[jorge_gasteazoro5]

I beleive Witold is correct when he mentioned that some of the new policies of Calumet were less than honest. I have a personal experience with them that truly demonstrated to me they were out to make a buck not take care of the customers. Back many years ago I ordered an Apo-Symmar 150 lens. As is turned out the lens they sent me was a "gray market" lens in order words it had been imported directly by Calumet. Now I dont mind "gray market" I have bought many lenses like this "BUT" the problem was that Calumet charged me full price, as if it had been sold to me with a USA warranty. When I called them they told me, "a we imported this lens and we will give you a "Calumet" waaranty" I said this is not good enough, the price difference is significant between a gray market lens and a USA lens, why are you selling this without making your customers aware of your practice? In the end, I kept the lens, it was my fault for not asking before I ordered. But I feel I should not have to ask, that they would have dealt with me in an honest manner. Needless to say I never ordered any equipment from them unless it was something for my Zone VI enlarger since I was stuck with them.

[todd_katz]

After reading all the post and the finger pointing on the enlarger. It appears we will never know the true answer on the enlarger issue and at this point who cares it past history. My question is why do you want to buy back Zone VI. Don't you think Calumet doesn't wants it out there being a threat to its business again if it ever was. Why not ask the question, A business is going to be modeled after the original Zone VI what can be done to make it better. I miss the original Zone VI it was a place you could call with a problem and they would take the time to help you out. The staff knew their products and if the sales staff didn't know the answer. There was always Fred and Richard who were both large format photographers. Fred was sometimes hard to take and did sometime belittle you. Richard on the other hand didn't care what you asked him even if it had to do with color he would help you out, I sometimes found him to be more helpful then Fred.

[keith_pitman]

Here is a new website from a Zone VI disciple:

 

http://www.fineartphotosupply.com/

 

"Different is not the same" but at least these guys are trying.

[witold_grabiec]

Todd,

 

You're probably right in your assumptions that Calumet would not easily give up Zone VI. I'm not completely convinced that's the case though, simply because Zone VI branded line has actually shrunk in recent years. This tells me that business "gurus" at top of Calumet never realized the potential Zone VI name brought along.

 

As for the NEW Zone VI, I don't think it would have to be improved right away. Getting it back to basics should suffice. As I pointed out before, the pricing could be better (although in the old days they DID have a few products you could not get cheaper anywhere, print drying screens come to mind for sure). Obviousely for any business to succeed, it MUST adjust to changing market conditions. I think we all agree that Zone VI type of company would rely on a rather small customer base. With internet being as useful as it is (I'm not talking an on-line store, that's a given)it could be utilized for market research and direct input of ideas. As I shoot around I always seem to come accross something that could be fixed by a product that isn't there. If I had a place to spell out my concerns, I'd do it in a heart beat. Especially if I knew that my input:

 

1. would be read by a human being

 

2. would result in a direct response (no matter what that response might be)

 

3. would occasionally help create a product that addressed my initial concerns (I say occasionally as user concerns have to be prioritized, some will thus fall out of the picture as soon as they get in, others may not carry enough merrit to bother etc.)

 

In the end I'd like to see the following:

 

1. Zone VI Studios back the OLD way with the addition of an on-line store

 

2. Existing products updated (and of course improved)

 

3. New products developed

 

Any new attempt to recreate OLD Zone VI would obviousely not have Fred. However, I don't think that's entirely necessary. While he was one of a kind, his sound business approach CAN be recreated with same (or vastly similar) spirit. His successor would have to love photography, understand it very well, be a hands-on type of a guy, and above all, would have to display highest level of integrity. To me that's doable.

[witold_grabiec]

Jorge,

 

Thanks for pitching in. I'm sure there is many stories similar to yours. As I pointed out earlier, Zone VI mentality NEVER belonged with Calumet (or any business of that size). We, who used to love Fred's venture, know it better than anyone.

[vicki_guidice]

It kills me that you folks seem to think that you can just snap your fingers and start a company and then the whole world will instantly notice and make you profitable. I've been in photography since 1972 and just now have gotten around to starting a photographic supply company. You all are welcome to try out our website and read about our products (www.Fineartphotosupply.com), but business isn't as simple as hanging our a shingle and buying a wheelbarrow to throw your cash into.

 

Calumet is a distribution company. If you sell thousands of items, you can't possibly have a personal voice and give the kind of personal service and information that Fred Picker did. But you can carry all sorts of items for all different types of photographers. Zone VI didn't and we don't. It doesn't go both ways. Why do you think Calumet bought Zone VI - to advance large format B&W photography and personally cater to it's advocates like Fred did? ... because they were all as serious about photography as Fred was? ... Because they are all fine art large format photographers like Fred was? That's silly. They are a catalog company and the name of the game in that business is to have a mailing list and Zone VI had a very valuable mailing list. That's why they bought it. Producing and mailing a catalog like the Calumet catalog is very expensive and they cannot afford to carry products that don't "pay their way". They discontinued items that weren't worth carrying because they are a completely different business -- they can provide some wonderful services but they are completely different services from the type Zone VI provided.

 

Do you think it's that easy to just start up a photo company from scratch? Calumet might sell you the Zone VI name, but do you think they are stupid enough to give you their mailing list too? Maybe they could throw in about $200,000. in start-up capital while they are at it. Mercy!

 

I love that comment that we don't have Cameras and Enlargers yet but it's a start. That's brilliant. Suppose we had cameras and enlargers and spent the money on inventory, copy, packaging --- and the marketplace doesn't want it? What then? Fred Picker was successful because he could personally and knowledgeably educate the marketplace about what he was selling, and he was a good businessman too. And Zone VI started out small - very small. Their first tripod was a Majestic - the same one we carry. Their first print washer was an Arkay drum washer! Ours is proprietary, and has about 25 years of research behind it.

 

If any of you guys have a magic lamp that you can rub and out pops a Zone VI Studios complete with a customer base, supplier base, physical facilities, working capital, and about 17 years of experience in the marketplace -- God bless you. Give me your name and I'll sign over Fine Art Photo Supply to you.

 

Anthony Guidice

[witold_grabiec]

Anthony,

 

I'm quite frankly surprised at your comments. That's not the impression I've got from the few posters pointing at you and your company as a new, promissing, and notably good thing. I've only just now heard about your company, and I'm sorry but I have not had a chance to check out your web site (yet). Since I've initiated this thread AND you sound upset (correct me if I'm wrong please) here is my summary:

 

Part of your reply repeats what I've said all along, that is Zone VI NEVER belonged with Calumet or anyone of that size, simply because of different business mentality. Zone VI, as started AND ran by Fred Picker, was a well thought out approach to selling what's needed in fine photography without OVERstocking or OVERkilling inventory with stuff available cheap from some well established mail order outfits.

This way he did not need large employee base, large warehouse, an army of accountants etc. While I call it Zone VI business mentality (they were the first company of this kind I came accross) others may think otherwise. One thing remains though, Fred was successful because of that. I agree that Fred's great strength was in educating the market in what it needs. That much credit to him, but nothing new in principle (unfortunately you could get fired for thinking along those lines in almost ANY larger business).

In my latest post I sort of put out a "business plan" for the new Zone VI. It's not really that. That's just a very simplistic way of explaining (my personal) desires. I missed that. Maybe you're trying the same approach (so I'm hoping anyway). There is a noticable void in the market place for small and personal. The big guys have been buying out the small in order to shrink available options (or to acquire a sound mailing list, but whatever Calumet paid Fred it was NOT worth a mailing list of ANY quality). The more I think of the Calumet's acqusition the more I see it as a hostile takeover. They could have made a good chunk on it had they thought of it more like a merger: leave the name as separate division, keep the little catalog running, continue with the newsletter and workshops. Neither of the latter two required Fred for too long. Then there was time to find his successor. But given what happened that was not Calumet's thinking. Instead of improving products they either left it alone (the best they've actually done to Zone VI line) or dropped it (Fred's great videos is one for sure) or made it worse (Zone VI field camera)(I can just smell the enlarger issue flying in).

 

I certainly never thought a buyback would be easy or an instant success. I only intended to fill in the existing void. Many responses proved me right.

 

If someone hoped you would (perhaps) one day bring along an enlarger or a camera to the market, you should see it as a complement not a display of ignorance. Either they misread your business intentions, or you misread theirs.

 

I define a successful business as something one can enjoy. Historically that's been the case. If one can't keep it going, can't seem to find new challenges, he quits. If it feels more like a day to day chore, he quits.

 

I view this entire forum (and every thread in it) as nothing but education, education, education. So it kills you, and that's too bad, too bad. I only hope you did not make yourself a bad name.

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>"I define a successful business as something one can

enjoy..."</I><P>I define a successful business as being a

business that makes a profit. A successful businessman is one

who enjoys running that business. even Picker was a pretty

mean "bean counter" atthe end of the day. Witold do <I>you</I>

run your own business? Have you ever done so? I can't

understand why you are jumping down Mr. Guidice' throat simply

because he is pointing out some very basic realities. Actually, if

as you say Calumet is run by "bean counters," They'd probably

be happy to sell you the Zone VI business as I seriously doubt it

is a profitable division of their business if you offered them the

right amount of money. You could probably even harvest an e-

mail list from the members of this forum and from the usenet

large format forum.<P>Zone VI started as a spinoff from Picker's

Zone Vi Workshop, as a place that people who attended those

workshops could order supplies and then cameras they

couldn't easily find elsewhere. Hell you might even look up

Lillian Farber or Picker's companions and cohorts to see if they

are willing to help.<P>Yes it is a shame that Fred Picker is dead.

It is a shame that he had to sell Zone VI. But there are many

other small companies that fill those niches: The View Camera

Store, Canham Cameras, Photographer's Formulary, Bostick &

Sullivan, Wisner Cameras, Mr. Guidice's company, ...and those

are the ones that come to mind in less time than it'll take you to

read this sentence.

[witold_grabiec]

Ellis,

 

I think it's inapropriate, to say the least, to discuss Fred's "other side", here or anywhere. That's especially so given what was happening in his late years, and where he is now. Some, like yourself, seem to feel the urge to do otherwise.

 

Now:

 

What the hell are you talking about? NO, I don't have my own business. I have not done so yet. So what does that make me? An idiot on the subject? If you decided to go that far with your silly assumptions, why didn't you state your great business background, why didn't you tell everyone how successful you've been, why didn't you tell all of us how great a business you have run WITHOUT enjoying even one day of it? What does that grime of yours suppose to mean? That one must've owned a business before he can discuss what others do? I don't care what your background is, and you shouldn't care about mine. I'm not going to get into credentials of anybody on this forum. It's pointless. It's only what people say that matters to me. It either makes sense, or it doesn't.

 

Read my post carefully as you have not done so. Read his as well, and again, and again. Was I jumping down his throat or was it the other way around? Mailing list? You've got to read what I said many, many more times. I stated clearly "whatever Calumet paid for Zone VI it was not worth a mailing list of ANY quality". Buy out of Zone VI had NOTHING to do with Fred's mailing list. Mr. Guidice said it did. Calumet would easily give up Zone VI because it's not a profitable division? Probably so BECAUSE they've screwed up. I said that too, and not just once.

 

Was Mr. Guidice stating basic realities of owning a business, or was he just plain sour because "he's been in photography since 1972 and only now got around to starting his own photo supply company"? What does he mean? I've been in photography since 1968, what does that mean? NOTHING.

 

The trouble is that this forum is for discussing all kinds of matters related to photography. Some, like yourself, don't want that every time. I don't mind the nay-sayers. They stirr things up and that makes it that much more of a joy. I'm not going to restate, again, what I've already said about Calumet and Zone VI. It's here, go back and read it if you care. I've worked for several companies. From small, few emplyee type, to the largest corporations of America. When I think of how diverse my background has been, it gets overwhelming sometimes. But I've seen enough to state what I've stated over and over again. And I can defend that too.

 

What I said about enjoyment goes far deeper than you think. Of course it depends on how one defines "enjoyment". It has nothing to do with having an easy day, every day. Stupid is the one who thinks that. Running a successful business is hard work, and that NEVER changes. One must:

 

1. understand the challenges before him

 

2. accept meeting them as THE driving force in succeeding

 

3. foresee problems before they become an issue

 

4. have fluid mind and adjust objectives as required by the changing market conditions

 

5. must ENJOY hard work it takes to meet the above four

 

If any of the above 5 fall out the window, it's probably time to call it quits.

 

Sure, easier said than done. Successful people have little, if any, time to play. Often times success eats them up. Often times they give up on their families. Some times it ends tragically. It's a jungle and one better knows how to survive.

 

I've said it many times why Fred was successful. I could care less what started Zone VI. It's what happened afterwards. Fred had clearly had sharply stated objectives and met them beautifully.

 

It's good there is still some smaller companies out there that we can relate to and/or purchase from. That has NOTHING to do with what's been happening to Zone VI while at Calumet. There is a void and that's what this thread has always been about.

[david_walker1]

Witold,

 

Interesting. I just took a look at the Fred Picker Print Club website that you posted. Another indictment of Calumet. I followed Zone VI studios for many years, but lost track during the late 80's early 90's due to a relocation and heavy work schedule. After I heard that Calumet had bought Zone VI, I called them in about 1996 to ask if Fred was still active in any way with photography. I was told that he was no longer involved in photography in any way and was rtired to fly fishing. The web site seams to say otherwise. I commuted through from CT to Burlington Vermont for 3 years passing through Dummerston, not knowing he was still active. How long did he run the print club?

[jorge_gasteazoro5]

Yeah well, I had put Fine Art Photo Supply on my favorites list, even before he posted it on the forum, but after that rant it is going to the waste basket. Apparently only Mr. Guidice, and Ellis are the only ones with the smarts and know how to start a bussiness. Good luck to them I say!

[vicki_guidice]

I'm going to add my two-cents here. Nothing that was said was an attack on Witold but rather a comment on the idealistic approach that was taken. Fred was a terrific businessman--he realized who his market was and catered to them. That is what we are attempting to do. But you guys don't seem to understand how difficult (translate to $$$$$) it is to get out to people and let them know you exist or to make sure you are offering them products they want to buy from you.

 

Calumet was not the right place for Zone VI but by the time Fred sold it, he wanted to relax. Believe it or not he told us he wasn't photographing much any more and that, "he loved to fish". He spent all those years building that business and he has a right to sell it to the highest bidder.

 

We are trying to get Fine Art Photo Supply established because we feel there is a need in the marketplace for a company like this. In the meantime, we need to eat, have bills to pay, etc. We're not a .com company like an Amazon that has tons of financing to go years without making some money.

 

I'm sure the mailing list (full of real customers) was very valuable to Calumet. Prospecting is expensive and often doesn't yield customers. We all agree that Calumet isn't the right place for Zone VI or a company of its type.

 

This certainly has been an interesting exchange. I wonder if the other threads going have been as busy!

[vicki_guidice]

Sorry if I ticked anyone off. I apolgize if I sounded like a jerk. I probably did. Look, I'm only an expert in my own opinion, that's it.

 

How about a peace offering? If any of you would like some free samples of our exposure record forms, e-mail me and I'll send you some. -- Anthony

[jorge_gasteazoro5]

Ok Anthony, you are back in the favorites. When I first saw your site it was because of a mailing I got in hotmail. Although I did not see anything I need now I thought your business was interesting and should keep it in mind for the future. What I dont think you or Ellis realize is that for all we know Witold is a millionare and/or does have the backing to do just as he wishes. Dont dismiss someones idea just because it does not conform to your experiences, I really dont think he was naive or that he is unaware of the financial commitment something like this would take. Anyhow, I do wish you all the success you envision and will keep you in mind for future purchases.

[witold_grabiec]

David,

 

I honestly don't know how long Fred ran his photo fan club. When I came accross his web site I immediately inquired about the videos. Response I received educated me on his death. While the site is currently still on, I don't know whether it'll continue. My reply to his nephew (who answered my video inquiry) bounced back as undeliverable. Maybe someone knows what to make of it.

 

Anthony (Guidice),

 

I think I need to add my own worth here as I believe some of my statements in response to your original post could be subject to interpretation. Maybe this will help clarify them:

 

I need to start with the definition of success.

 

Bean Countaneers at Calumet sort of places will set a $$ value that needs to be made on each $1 invested. As long that value is met, that's it. It will not matter whether they lost in the process (say) 10% of customers due to crappy treatment or policies. They made the buck required and so it's a success. Not in my book though.

 

I'm glad you brought up Amazon as I nearly did it myself a few posts ago. Amazon was (is) the best thing that happened to on-line shopping. Mr. Bezos had a vision that went far beyond the brains of most Stock Marketeers. I'm glad he's proving them all wrong. This is not to compare the venture capital available to Amazon with resources available to a small company like yours. It's about the importance of concept and determination in implementing it. Mr. Bezos faced more advertisity (especially from the so called market analists) than most big time CEO's, but that did not scare him away. Only because he believed in his, seldom seen, intuition.

 

I, as I'm sure most other posters here, fully understand the need of supporting family, paying bills, putting bread on the table etc. It DOES make it far more difficult to ENJOY running a business.

 

I take issue with my "idealistic" approach. Every business owner will have his own measure of success. Some will go with the money-and-nothing-else approach and as long as they make enough dough they'll be happy (enough being another subjactive matter). Nothing really wrong with that, except it isn't a success in my book. Many owners I've happened to know don't refer to their business in "successful" terms because, while making a good living at it, they feel there is something missing, something that makes it NOT feel complete.

 

As I've worked through the years under, for, and with different people I've come to realize one thing: if one takes pride in the ownership of his company he will go many extra miles to make the customer happy. Proud owner is a happy one. One must be HAPPY about the way he runs his business in order to make it success. This kind of success puts a lot more weight on the customer following than the financial side. Please don't misread this, successful business MUST make profit. Profitability MUST be sustained over time. But that's just one of the goals that need to be met. It's complemented by fequency of repeat customer. If that's in high numbers it will help spread the GOOD word and bring in more first time customers. It's like a chain reaction. It may sound simplistic (and/or idealistic) but not easy. In order to meet these goals the product offered becomes the key. That's obvious but let me just say this one more time: Fred Picker and Zone VI had the right product. It was a combination of great choice of quality merchandise complemented by proper customer care. The latter requires a high level of integrity as it boils down to dealing with unexpected problems. It is very difficult to stay on top of things in a customer care department. Easiest approach would be to NOT let any of it happen. But that'd be asking too much. How one deals with that is another story and I don't see room for that on this forum.

 

As for the mailing list: I could see a value in a mailing list 10-15 years ago. What would happen if one posts a link to a new place on the net here, on this forum? Provided that place offers something others don't, I see a great many numbers check it out. If the offer is right they'll go back. I think the years of maiing out brochures are gone for good. There is still need for product literature as many (including myself) like having a paper proof of what's being offered. But this is nearing extinction too as pdf downloads become more and more common.

 

Usually history judges successful ventures better as it takes time to instill success in the books. And history may have spoken on the Zone VI success right here, on this forum, perhaps even in this thread.

 

Anthony, I personally wish you and FineArtPhotoSupply the best of luck in filling in the void left out by the Calumet's Zone VI acquisition. I trust you're a clever businessman and hope to become one of your steady customers.

[vicki_guidice]

Thank you very much. We agree on many things, really. I couldn't run this business if I didn't love photography. And I know lots of guys, expecially back home in NJ-NYC who are making lots of money and not much else.

 

I would dearly love to have that mailing list, though!

 

Success certainly is not only about money. Building a business is also building a community, and for me, making the photography market better than it was before. I couldn't sell doorknobs or kitchen gadgets even if I could make a lot of money doing it. You certainly do have to love what you do. I don't think Calumet really cares what they're selling; it could just as easily be a doorknob.

 

Isn't that what made those Zone VI catalogs and Newsletters so great? --especially the early stuff. You could just feel his enthusiasm and excitement exploding off the page at you...

 

That's why this is a wonderful economic system we have. Anyone is free at any time to bring an idea for a business or service into the marketplace and try it. We'll do our very best, we promise you that.

 

Your remarks are very encouraging, and thank you very much again.

 

Anthony

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>Ellis,

 

I think it's inapropriate, to say the least, to discuss Fred's "other

side", here or anywhere. </I><P>

 

Witold, I have absolutely no idea about what you are talking

about. I am really completely in the dark here. If you like please

respond privately.<P>

 

I am really sorry that you have taken offense at what I wrote, I

was just trying to point out that it isn't as easy as you seem to

think.. I'm not being sarcastic. I wish you well in your new

venture. Once again sorry I caused you distress.

[witold_grabiec]

Ellis,

 

"even Picker was a pretty MEAN bean counter at the end of his day" is yours, isn't it? Perhaps I misread that, sorry if I did. Perhaps I read too much into that. However, "mean" relates to ones character to me and that's what ticked me off. Since there were other posters earlier suggesting that Fred not always was a nicest of people, I wanted to stop that. I should have put that in front and start with your name afterwards so it would be directed at everyone rather than, apparently, just you.

 

I do take offense when my words get twisted. I don't think I misread the part where you clearly suggested the mailing list was something I wanted to have. I did not, I stated that rather strongly in the post you were responding directly to.

 

There is no need to switch to a direct, outside of this forum exchange, as we should all be able to either, defend our remarks and opinions, or admit a mistake. It's what integrity is all about and that's what I cherish most.

 

Sometimes, in the heat of things, we may go a bit too far with our statements. It happens. When it happens to me, I admit it.

 

You had a problem with my reply to Anthony's post, I had one with yours. In the end, this is the place to argue, one way or another.

 

Regards.

[sal_santamaura]

In American English, "pretty mean bean counter" is equivalent to "pretty good bean counter." It carries no temperment connotations.

[witold_grabiec]

Thanks Sal, I stand corrected (?) You mean to say you've been reading this thread and the only thing you disagree with is my (mis)understanding of "pretty mean bean counter"?

 

American english is a great thing isn't it? "pretty mean bean counter" in and of itself is indeed what you say it is, or is it? I'd take issue with whether it carries temperament connections, but I think that'd be taking this thread a bit out of this world. Trouble is Fred was not one of them. Let's not take things out of context here. One cannot have "PMBC" approach (as the American english would imply(?))and CARE for what he does. Then again, did he care? That's of course my opinion, as everything else I said here.

 

I have to get back to the States quick and put myself in the same time zone again as I've been shooting at you guys from accross the world. Meaning have been doing it around 3 a.m. of my time (not by choice but mostly due to work schedule, see I'm a pretty mean bean counter myself and sometimes my work takes me deep into the night).

[david_goldfarb]

Sal's right. Ellis tylko mowi po Texasku. That's just an idiomatic expression meaning "he was a serious businessman" even as he was dedicated to his art form, not that he was miserly or anything of the sort.

[witold_grabiec]

Hi David,

 

As I said "I stand corrected (?)" provided of course, I fully agreed with the meaning of the expression. I'm not trying to reinvent American english, but would take issue with the lack of temperament connection within the expression itself. Again, I don't feel the need to do so within this thread or this forum. If my logic is right on that then the connection I made would be correct as well. It's sure good to know though, there are more people reading this thread than the number of contributions would suggest.

 

As I stated in my reply to Ellis I may have misread his intentions and in the heat of things threw it where it did not belong.

 

Sorry Ellis for making others think you were a mean machine, and my apologies to Sal and David for not being that much of a point maker.

 

Regards.

[tim_atherton2]

speaking as a Brit living in N America for the last 13 years, it's a very common phrase/use of the word "mean" as defined above, and has no negative connotation at all. Quite the opposite.

 

get over it guys

 

tim

[witold_grabiec]

Thanks Tim,

 

I agree, we need to get over it. That would include you as well. Anyway, let me just redo something here:

 

While I stand by what I said about the "temperament connection" within the PMBC expression (which again, I could easily take issue with) the following happened:

 

- I know I'm capable at times of unorthodox views, if they're not explained right up front they often times lead to confusion

 

- given the official meaning of the PMBC expression I shouldn't have expeceted anyone to know what was driving my mind, given that I should have thought things over a bit more

 

- since Ellis' post was directed right at me, and twisted part of my statement as explained earlier, I responded too quickly and made a mistake

 

- Fred Picker was NOT a PMBC (in my opinion of course) which does not (and should not) take anything away from him being one of the best businessmen within the field, I stated that many times. Reason I say that is BECAUSE of how I feel about the PMBC expression. This is not something that just happened (provided you can belive I had heard the expression before). I understand that most (or all) feel that PMBC contains zero negatives, I don't. It goes with the way you think of running your own business. I only now realized how strongly some can disagree with that, and only now see how it lead to confusion completely created by my own ignorance.

 

All in all, my apologies to all mislead.

[sal_santamaura]

"Thanks Sal, I stand corrected (?) You mean to say you've been reading this thread and the only thing you disagree with is my (mis)understanding of "pretty mean bean counter"?"

 

If that was a question for me, the answer is: One can neither agree nor disagree with your misunderstanding of an idiomatic expression. I simply observed and noted it. My silence concerning the rest of this thread is intentional, and should not be construed as agreement or disagreement with anyone's positions.