Thinking about getting a Leica III...

[aplumpton]

<p>Max, the CLA and repair is usually not very cheap, but not required very often. I still haven't found a good way to use my shutter speed tester with the camera as you cannot remove the back from it. Probably you can manually adjust the RF, as on an M Leica, but I haven't tried (or yet needed to). Mine even has a repaired rather than replaced shutter curtain, but it still works well. Try to make sure the VF and RF windows and viewers are clear, and the shutter speeds appear consistent (listening to them), especially the under 1/30 second ones. </p>

<p>While I use other gear, and the Leica is slower in use, the charm of the III system is great and I fully understand why you would like one. Jush Root has described it very well. And lots of great photographers of the past did their best work with it. So best of luck in finding one in very good condition at a reasonable price.</p>

[steve_mareno]

<p>The little screw mount Leica's are fun cameras, but every one I have owned needed some sort of repair that has cost as much or more than the camera cost to begin with. After a while you get a bit tired of all these dollars (or pounds or francs or whatever) going away. I also think a Bessa R or even an R2a, is a better idea. Cheap, and has a great meter and a unified viewfinder. Not nearly as cool looking but you will get shots that you couldn't get w/ a Barnack Leica. Having a discreet camera can be negatively offset by having to fool w/ a hand held meter. I would also suggest, if you just have to have one of the Barnacks, going to a comparable Fed or Zorki. You can find a very nice example and have it CLA'd for less than the Leica would cost w/o a CLA. While I admired the workmanship of my Elmar 50 3.5 I sold it because my collapsible Industar 10 was sharper, imaged similarly to the Leica, and had a coated element.</p>

<p>If you want a stealth camera buy a black Hexar AF. Whisper quiet and it has a very sharp lens.</p>

[ralph_jensen]

<p>I can't know the OP's motives. But just as most guys who take their 1940s cars out for a drive on weekends are fully aware that there are literally millions of cars that are more modern and "better,"</p>

<p>. . . it's quite possible that someone who asks about buying a 60-year-old camera probably wants it because he wants to be able to take photos with a 60-year-old camera, not because he's looking for the easiest camera to use or is unaware that there are more modern options.</p>

<p> </p>

[astral]

<p>Barnack cameras in UK shops .... re: "do they often get Fs in at that sort of price?"</p>

<p>There is a steady turn-over of Barnacks at MW Classic, largely due to the price, but prices for really good ones are drifting up slightly.</p>

<p>Ffordes have a long list of them, but they are not moving very quickly at all. London Leica speciaists (Red Dot, Classic Cameras & Aperture) also have higher prices and slower-moving stock. Talk to Ivor Cooper at <strong><em><a href="http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/">Red Dot</a> </em> </strong> . Frank Foster at<strong><em> <a href="http://www.photodesignstudio.co.uk/">Design Studio</a> </em> </strong> has lower prices and a very fast turnover. Reg Roach at<strong><em> <a href="http://www.croydonphotocentre.co.uk/">Croydon Photo Centre</a> </em> </strong> has sensible prices but not much stock. The <em><strong><a href="https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/index.php?language=en">Leica Shop in Wien</a> </strong> </em> has a good stock and prices are great when the £> Euro rate is o.k, (splutter!).</p>

<p>In my experience (UK), over the past 3 years it has become a little harder to find exc++, grade-A used Barnacks at bargain prices, though ones in 'good' condition are still available at reasonable prices. Set aside £145 for a full (body only) 'expert' service at CRR, or a bit more from Malcolm Taylor. A 'good repairer' will charge around £100: a service should 'last' many, many years.</p>

<p>Finally, Max, don't get into this madness <em>in haste</em> .... buy a Bessa R2 today and you can put off the entry to Leicadom for a few days/weeks/months/years .... but once the merest thought is in your head, it'll get you in the end.</p>

[andrew_clark1]

<p>I had a screw mount Leica, but eventually sold it when I moved up to the M series. If I had to do it it all over again, I would go with a IIIf Black Dial and put a Voitlander Nokton 50mm on it.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>One of the appeals of the Barnack concept cameras is that they are the antithesis of auto-everything 35mm cameras. This is compatible with the belief that going fully manual with a small precision instrument (for which light modern LTM lenses are of course available) will have a positive effect on the photography of the holder. </p>

<p>A reasonable argument.</p>

[don_e]

<p>"Barnacks" also have a very high rating on the Fondle Factor Index. This should not be poo poo'd. I mean it. It's ok to fondle.</p>

<p> </p>

[joshroot]

<blockquote>

<p>. . . it's quite possible that someone who asks about buying a 60-year-old camera probably wants it because he wants to be able to take photos with a 60-year-old camera, not because he's looking for the easiest camera to use or is unaware that there are more modern options.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well of course it is. But when you ahve been watching a Leica forum for 5-10 years, you notice that there are a lot of people who want to get into a specific camera because they have latched onto it in their head, not because they have any good reason for that specific camera. So it is useful to get a bit more information out of them so you can make a helpful suggestion. In this case, the OP seems to want that "old car" experience, more power to him. But it would have been just as likely that he would have said "The LTM Leicas just seemed like a cheaper way to get into rangefinder photography". In which case bringing up some other options (like the Bessas) would have been a useful conversation.</p>

[max_barstow]

<p>I had a look in Red Dot Cameras today, and handled a IIIf and IIIb. The b's in my price-range (140quid), and is even a bit smaller than the f.<br>

Having handled the thing, I think I'll get it, all the pains of an old camera aside.</p>

<p>Thanks for all of the help :)</p>

[astral]

<p>Max, despite being older an a bit less sophisticated, the black III <em>might </em> be the better buy, that IIIb is a <em>tad</em> scruffy. Mine was exc++ for <em>£165</em> from Ffordes. <em>Don't rush it, get a nice un</em> . Check MW Classic Fridays from 9pm.</p>

[max_barstow]

<p>I'd rather not have a black one + the 1000th shutter speed is gonna be useful at times.<br>

I looked at it in the shop, have to say it looked great, but I won't have all the cash 'til April, so I've got time to look around anyway.<br>

I presume you mean 9am?</p>

[max_barstow]

<p>Oh, will a camera I buy from a shop need a repair/check-up as soon as I get it?</p>

[astral]

<p>Nope, the MWC website is updated from c. <em>9pm</em> onwards, most Friday nights. Ffordes tend to update daily, but the Leica pages change only slowly. Ivor at Red Dot does updates 'live' as new items arrive. I forgot to mention <strong><a href="http://www.richardcaplan.co.uk/">Richard Caplan</a> </strong> and <strong><a href="http://www.peterwalnes.com/">Peter Walnes</a> </strong> .</p>

<p>I presume you have read the Cameraquest webpages .......<em> <strong><a href="http://www.cameraquest.com/ltmcam.htm">LTM cameras</a> </strong> </em> and <strong> <a href="http://www.cameraquest.com/ltmlens.htm"><em>LTM lenses</em> </a> </strong></p>

<p>Shop bought cameras should have some warranty , but you do need to check the basics: clear finder & bright rangefinder; slow shutter speeds should be correct; the shutter should 'snap' (very quietly) not hang or delay; curtains should be free of wrinkles ..........</p>

[max_barstow]

<p>I checked Richard Caplan online, but not Peter Walnes. That IIIf for 180 is still tempting, but the size of the b does appeal. I'll think.</p>

[astral]

<p>The Leicashop (Wien) website is great place to look at photos of different Leicas and, indeed, many 'interesting' cameras and lenses. The prices for some items often compare favourably against those in the UK, but not always, descriptions are quite concise however.</p>

[astral]

<p>Max - you have an email.</p>

[nzdavid]

<p>Ffordes in Scotland are always very helpful and have a good range. Important thing is to buy one in the best possible condition -- or factor on having a CLA. Shutter may well need servicing, no matter what generation screwmount Leica you get. It's certainly a very compact precision built camera. More fiddly to use than an M, and separate rangefinder and viewfinder (which is very small) may deter you, or you may not mind. An M model, with its nice big finder, single shutter dial, and easier loading is worth considering, too. But you will definitely have a fun time whichever model you choose. Good luck!</p>

[nzdavid]

<p>Oh, you really shouldn't discount the older IIIs. I have a 1935 IIIa. A local camera craftsman more or less totally rebuilt the rangefinder, and fixed the shutter. If it's mechanical, it can be fixed. Alas, I really should use it some more. </p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Don't forget trying a WTB ad (I recommend Photo.Net). Although you may not be getting a guarantee (subject to local country laws), if you are dealing with a fellow photographer you can often get a better deal, a sincere appraisal of quality (subject to questions, answers) and photos to indicate any at least external shortcomings. You might also get evidence of last CLA date or indication of other troubles. In these more difficult financial times, many of us are willing to sacrifice a part of our photographic holdings.</p>

[robert_hooper1]

<p>I have a Leica III F, (capital F not small f, somewhat confusing), of 1934 vintage. I purchased it in a rather ugly condition, inspired by an interesting though non-provable provenance. A trip to Don Goldberg's Leica Spa reveled a real diamond underneath all the crud, and the Leica III cleaned up quite well.</p>

<p>However in use, this little gem is prone to breakdown. It reminds me of the 1959 Austin Healey "Bugeye" Sprite I used to own. No matter how hard I tried to pamper it, the Sprite was always in the shop.</p>

<p>I've had the same experience with my Leica III. It is an absolute gem and fun to use, but the Leica III has proved to be a very high maintenance indulgence. As I write this, the camera is with Sherry Krauter who is repairing the film count indicator wheel. When it comes back from the shop this time, it will go into retirement.</p>

<p>At least until it performs it's enchantment on the next owner. ;-)</p>

[max_barstow]

<p>Alan, that slightly battered-looking b, if it's from Red Dot, then it should be in perfect working-knick shouldn't it? They've got a guy there who does repairs...</p>

[astral]

<p>Max, this is <em>my </em> 'take' on buying: The key issue is that mechanically <em>most things </em> can be fixed during a service (c.£100 via Red Dot, etc) as long as it hasn't been hammered. If it needs a new r/f mirror or new shutter curtains these might push the cost up 30-50%-ish. Sometimes it just isn't possible to get the flash synch working properly on these old cameras - is that a consideration?</p>

<p>Even replacing Vulcanite is possible (via CRR), and new replacement knobs (etc) can be obtained from <strong><em><a href="http://dagcamera.com/leica.htm">Don Goldberg</a> </em> </strong> in Oregon. The one thing that can't (economically) be done is refurbishing the metal bodywork, unless you want an sumptuous sexy<strong> </strong> <em><strong><a href="../leica-rangefinders-forum/00RZ5j">black paint</a> </strong> </em> job like Arthur Plumpton had done recently.</p>

<p>The more Barnacks that you handle, the more you'll appreciate the features of the various models and differences in handling; and you'll be better able to spot any "issues". That said, Ivor (Red Dot) has a fine reputation: talk to him - IIIb models are 'uncommon' and the price seems quite fair, subject to <em>closer </em> inspection. Red Dot usually has a couple of decent 5cm f3.5 Elmars (or try MW Classic) - these are worth considering too.</p>

<p>I've sent you an email (via pnet) with <em>my </em> checklist of points to look out for - that should help you. I've had a closer look at photos of the IIIb: it doesn't seem <em>too </em> shabby really; there's wear to the chrome on the top and back, and to the slow speed knob (I <em>may </em> have a better replacement). Handling it should be the clincher - if it has been serviced in "living memory" it seems a <em>good user</em> ; if not I'd say "sleep on it". You can email me (see my profile) for a "chin-wag" on any specific issues if desired.</p>

[max_barstow]

<p>I don't use flash with anything right now, and I'd never bother with it on a Leica rangefinder.</p>

<p>I really am on a budget, and as long as the body WORKS well, I'm fine with that. And I still think it looks great, even if a bit worn. When I spoke to the guy in the shop, he said that I'd probably need to get it checked in three years, minimum, so I reckon I should be fine. I'll also keep the stuff in the email in mind, good to know what to watch out for.<br>

And Red Dot have several of those elmars, the cheapest one at 100quid, which is in perfect working order, just a little marked is all. Cheers Alan.</p>

[kevin h. y. lui.]

<p>Hi Max, <br>

I have a IIIb with a prewar elmar 5cm. The prewar elmar is uncoated but it still can give me fine print. However, it is not suggested to be used when the sun light is right in front of it. Shading is common especially the lens shade is missing. Therefore, I recommend you to get a coated one, it should not be too expensive. Other focal length of lenses, excluding those with large aperture and small production amount, is still cheap to buy. Summitar is nice lens with f/2 aperture, although it is little expensive than elmar 5cm. I don't recommend Summar because the front element is too soft and most of them are scratched. <br>

Leica's screw mount camera is a very interesting camera, especially IIIF. The versions of cameras includes internal and external modification. THe slow speed mechanism of older versions (IIIB and before IIIB) is different from IIIC after. Also, don't forget the rate of failure of these old cameras is high. Make sure to check the shutter curtains, slow speed mechanism, vf/rf mirror and prism completely before buying.<br>

Since IIIF have the flash sync. plug, it allows you to use flash when it is necessary. It does help you to solve many problems. Personally, I don't really like IIIC because the shutter speed dial is small for my fingers. And I don't know why IIIc have a smaller dial among the III series. I am planning to get a IIIF in the future.<br>

The competitor of Leica is the Contax rangefinder. Contax is a bunk camera with fine quality lens (They use Sonnar). IIa or IIIa is recommended. II/III can be good if you find one that has no faults. THe wear in shutter ribbon is the major killer of Contax. You may find the information from Web. Meanwhile, Kiev 4 is the clone of Contax which available in a low price. The Jupiter lenses are also the clone of Sonnar. However the quality of russian goods varies from one to one.</p>

 

[mark_hahn]

<p>I have a wonderful IIIc and a few lenses... don't use it that much, for similar needs as your's I find that my Kodak Retina IIa is much more user friendly. Combined RF and VF, easier loading, advance lever instead of knob, takes normal film with no modification and is as small as the Leica with a Elmar, but has a great 50/2 lens... the only thing that you lose is the 1/1000th top shutter speed...</p>

<p>don't get me wrong, I love my IIIc, but I shoot my Retina much more...</p>