Working for a Boss, Promoting Yourself - A Question on behalf of “Anne”

[William Michael]

<p >This week I was approached by a colleague, a Student Member of a Professional Association; she asked me for advice, which I gave. This morning she telephoned me and asked if I would, on her behalf seek the views of a wider Professional Community. Her request is to keep her anonymity. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I will name the woman “Anne”. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Anne is a student, second year of a 4 year Photography Degree. She has been working, part time for about 12 months as a Photographer’s Assistant and Second-string Photographer for a Studio / Commercial business owned by two working Photographers. One owner does Wedding work, primarily, the other is basically an Aerial Photographer – but the business is reasonably diverse, doing some studio portraiture and some small studio commercial / product shots.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Anne has carved, and grown a niche within the business with her studio portraiture – it seems both because she is good, has the necessary people skills and also because that area of the business happened to be “there to grow”.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Anne’s other primary input to the business has been, first Assisting at Weddings, and more recently, covering a second vantage point – the business now has introduced covering Weddings with Two Photographers.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >This is the crux of the question, Anne asked me: </p>

<p > </p>

<p >“Both the owners are aware that I will eventually build my own client base, we have all been quite open about that. I have done some location Engagement shoots for friends etc. Last weekend at a Wedding one of the Bridesmaids asked if I do Weddings for myself, and I said yes (although I have not done one for myself yet) and I gave her my personal Business Card. This has caused an argument between me and my two bosses. I did not go out advertising myself, but only answered the question when I was asked. Bill, what is your opinion?”</p>

<p > </p>

<p >After mulling over my opinion for a few days, Anne asks, what are your opinions, please.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW / for “Anne” </p>

[William Michael]

<p>My opinion and advice, have already been given to "Anne", a few days ago and in person. <br>

So not to bias comments nor sway the thread to comment on my particular point of view, I shall share my opinion, later.<br>

<br>

Thanks,<br>

WW </p>

 

[rebecca_eby]

<p>If someone did that while actually on the clock for my business, I'd be upset with her. It's perfectly acceptable to go out on your own time and solicit business (which she's been clear about from the beginning), but if my advertising dollars landed a wedding that she is paid to shoot for me, that's a conflict of interest.</p>

<p>I provide my second shooters with a generic business card that they can hand out- not their own, even though many of them have their own new businesses. I worked hard to get where I am and land the weddings I do- so why should they have it handed to them on a platter?</p>

[betty_lowrey]

<p>Honestly, she shouldn't have even told them. It's not personal, it's business. If they liked her demeanor and her work and wanted HER, she had every right to accept the work.<br>

It's really a gut-instinct she has to go with. It could cost her job with these people, but will it help her start her own career...which she wants in the first place.<br>

The Bridesmaid asked a question and she answered honestly. The employer's advertising dollars didn't bring in this bridesmaid, obviously "Anne's" business manner and talent did. </p>

[William Michael]

<p>Thank you both for your views.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p><em><strong>"Honestly, she shouldn't have even told them. It's not personal, it's business"</strong></em><br>

<br>

Betty,<br>

<br>

To clarify: her employer saw the act of the business card exchange, and later (after the Wedding Coverage was completed) asked Anne directly, what interaction transpired. <br>

<br>

Anne, as I understand it, was direct and honest in her reply: she outlined the event as I have quoted above.<br>

<br>

WW</p>

[richard_beisigl]

<p>Anne should have not given her own businees card to ANYONE who were at the wedding. She admitted that she was working for her boss or bosses. Anne should have given this person one of the business cards of the people she works for.</p>

[betty_lowrey]

<p>WW...Oh, that's a little different. I was under the assumption that she was doing this wedding on her own.<br>

Well...that was a bit gutsy of her, to do so in front of her employer. But, I'm still kind of on the side of it being a shrewd business move...maybe.<br>

It's tricky, that's for sure.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I agree with Rebecca. But it is difficult to police these occurences, so if I were the studio owners, I would have been dissapointed but not surprised. When I have been in the same circumstance, I don't lie to the inquirer--I say that I do shoot for myself, but that I am here today representing X Studio, and I would be happy to give him or her the Studio's info. I do not slip my info to the inquirer either. If the inquirer wishes, he or she can attempt to find me using his or her investigative skills, after the wedding is over.</p>

[francie_baltazar]

<p>I believe that if you are working for someone and you are approached you tell them to go the the main photographer - give the main photographer's card and she could have then asked her boss to be the main shooter and to work with him. You don't burn bridges and you don't build your business on someone elses business. That is unethical. I have a partner that I shoot weddings with - if I book it, she shoots second - if she books it, I shoot second... if someone asks me about doing a wedding while I am shooting second it goes to my partner - if the person said, I really want YOU to shoot my wedding, I would talk with my partner about it... but if I ever had a second give out a card at a wedding they would no longer work with me period. She is representing his company no hers and she should not have given out a card... she needs to appolgize and ask for cards to pass out in the future and work on a financial arrangement but in no way should she have her own cards on her person as their wedding shoot - or any other shoot for that matter. </p>

[betty_lowrey]

<p>This is why I just work for myself and myself only...I don't want to share!<br>

I wish her luck....</p>

[bobcossar]

<p>I liked Nadine's answer in particular. Anne was there as an employee and I feel it was not appropriate to do as she did.</p>

[mike_bisom]

<p>I am more surprised that this is even open for debate? I don't know of any organization that allows their employees to undercut them? Sure, everyone is free to find their own side work, but not through your employer. We have several shooters and I can't imagine any one of them handing out a personal business card while shooting a wedding through us. And I am also not so naive as to think they don't pursue their own shoots, but that is for them to develop on their own dime. For what it's worth, we do pay more to any shooter from which we get a referral. I suppose I would ask Anne the following.... 15 years from now you have your own business. One which you put your heart and soul in. And you have an assistant shooter. A talented one. Helps you shoot weddings. And you find out she is promoting her business... </p>

<p>The Golden Rule.</p>

[bevw]

<p>I've been shooting as a second and had the same thing happen several times. I always say that I am an independent photographer working that day for "Photography Company X". If they would like to contact me would they please contact Photography Company X first to get my contact information. Then I tell Photography Company X that they might be getting a call requesting my services. It's up to them if they want to turn it over to me or work the prospect themselves.</p>

<p>The way I see it is, there is no way that person asking for my card would have known about me if not for my having been working on Photography Company X's job - so that contact is not mine to keep without Company X's permission.</p>

[christopher hartt dallas]

<p>This employee would be dismissed if she worked at my shop. </p>

[vcakic]

<p>I had similar situation as Beverley. I was shooting a wedding for a studio ( I use their printing services ), since they had an extra wedding they couldn't cover and needed an available photographer. During the reception, I was approached by a best man and asked the same thing. "I have a wedding in a few months and I want you to shoot it." I said yes, and told them I was free for that date but he can call the studio I was shooting for that day and book me through them. I gave them Business card from a studio. I have my own weddings where I earn more money, but I was there as a "representative" for that studio. After that wedding, I told them what has happened and I was again booked, and did shoot the other one as well. I believe it's the only honest thing.<br>

If somebody called, later on, and said that they saw my album from that wedding and wanted ME, that is another thing.</p>

<p>V</p>

[bluphoto]

<p>much as I hate to admit it, and I'm not talking about the photography industry here, but honesty and business sense don't always go hand in hand. I've been caught too often being honest with a customer rather than protecting my employers interests. The customers appreciate it, and they actually respect my opinion more now than the other guy who tells them everythings rosy, when in fact, it may not be.</p>

<p>Anne is potentially a good photographer, but is young and perhaps a little naive. Good business sense does not always go hand-in-hand with being a good photographer and if someone hired Anne based on here photographic talent alone then they should expect to have to train her on the accepted business protocol. A manager who doesn't try to develop their employees where they see a need for such development - especially when not giving that training might have a detrimental effect on their business - is not much of a manager. THAT is good business sense.</p>

<p>If this girl has come a cropper through lack of training (even if it's a one hour discussion of the "rules") then that's no-ones fault but the managers. Yes, she may or may not be disciplined as a result, but those disciplinary procedures are at the discretion of the manager, who may or may not use them fairly.</p>

<p>People who hire other people need to realise that their role is now two fold. the second (or in some cases the first) of which is now people management - with all the thrills, headaches and responsibilities that come along with it. That extra work WILL detract from their ability to do the original task, or will extend their working week to cover the managerial tasks. It's not just about handing over a wad of cash at the end of the month.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>That is unethical.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Its not really an ethical issue at all if one is merely an employee. It is an employment issue which should be expected to lead to negative reactions, discipline or dismissal and "burning bridges" as another potential consequence. Its a business matter, not some great moral issue.</p>

<p> </p>

[austinphoto]

<p>If I am working for a studio, I will only hand out the studio's business card. It is their job I am on, and I am not there to compete with them. They pay me to shoot the job, but most of all, I am there representing them, not me. That's the only ethical thing to do. Know who you are, who you represent, and do the best job according to the situation. That's professional! Under such circumstances, the studio trusts me and gives me many more jobs. I work for them, not against them.</p>

[francie_baltazar]

<p>I think that given the responses above that unethical is the correct term as defined by websters: <strong>unethical</strong> - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior; "unethical business practices"</p>

<p>It appears to me that it is a "known standard" not to do this in the industry. It is true we do not know if she was given training on this - however basic business practices should dictate that this is not the correct response to the question she was asked.</p>

[bill_clark___minnetonka_mi]

<p>My thoughts:<br /> "Anne is a student, second year of a 4 year Photography Degree..."<br /> Why is it that some believe that in an instant you can become a photographer who charges for their services? I guess they have an eye for it or if I make "x" amount of images some are bound to turn out. I find so many putting the cart before the horse. Sure, you can do that but is it in your best interests, long term, as well as the client who pays you? Each can decide.<br /> Most professions take a fair amount of time to get the necessary knowledge, practice and a continuing education regimen to stay informed on the profession. My wife is a tax accountant and she spent 4 yrs. undergrad plus grad. school getting a title of MBT. She has her CPA and other alphabet soup letters from various courses of study. She reviews court cases every day on internet sites the firm subscribes to. She wouldn't have the responsibility she has without the knowledge and the necessary skills to execute it. Photography doesn't have such requirements. Maybe that's why so many find it difficult to transfer from a hobby to a business that will support you and your family. You go into it with your pallet of a few colors when you should have at least a sample of the entire rainbow. <br /> At any rate, I see so many in photography who have the desire to make pictures but don't want to spend the time studying or practicing the basics, learning their craft. This includes the creative side, the technical side and the business side. <br /> She can decide if she wants to give out her card. She must already have cards printed but what else? Jim Rockford used to print them in his car depending on who he wanted to see.<br /> The inspired ones are always learning, no matter what field of endeavor. Yes, you have to start from somewhere but I would recommend finishing the formal education part first, keep working as she is, get rid of her cards, then, perhaps after a few years, go out on her own. Or marry a rich guy!<br /> Good luck!</p>

<p> </p>

[chris_whitcomb1]

<p>We have a second shooter/assistant contract that states plainly that while working for us, they represent us and only us. Any questions from the client and/or guests need to be directed to me or my wife. Most of our help are aspiring photographers who are still in high school anyway, and are not ready to start promoting themselves, however, when they are, we will do everything to help them get started. Just paying it forward.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>I would add that honesty is almost always the best policy. When I have actually told an inquirer that I cannot give them my personal info because it would be unethical (I agree with Francie--it is unethical, as in business ethics), every one has understood and appreciated the situation. This is also why, when asked, I don't lie about shooting for myself. Unless it is to spare a person embarassment or discomfort and does not cross the ethical boundary, I never lie. It always comes back to bite you in the rear.</p>

[doug_santo]

<p>Anne is working for a professional studio. While on paid assignment, she markets herself to potential customers of her employer. She ls lucky she was not fired. She may yet be fired. If she has a history of doing this, she could be sued by her employer for loss of income.</p>

[lauren_macintosh]

<p>I believe everybody agree's wrong time to do that , Had they finished shooting and someone from the wedding party ran into her someplace else thats different not on the JOB tho:</p>

[hal_edmonds]

<p>I would not tolerate such nonsense. It was ethically and morally insane. She was only thinking of herself and not her employer. What audacity!</p>