Ditching P-TTL on Pentax DSLR's?

[musings]

<p>Ever since my pop-up on the K10 died and I replaced it with a Nikon SB-30, I have done away with P-TTL use, even in fast moving, event/party shots. Truth is, I found that P-TTL always underexposed images by a 1/2 stop or more (and then washed out as soon as I dialed in a compensation). I do use P-TTL on my AF-360 for bounce & background lighting only (it is mounted on a flash bracket with the SB-30 on the camera hotshoe), but all of the subject lighting is coming from the Nikon flash in manual.</p>

<p>I was wondering how many others have ditched P-TTL for the full control of manual (or auto). I know there are numerous write-ups stating that P-TTL is everything from the cat's pajamas to complete junk, but I wanted to gauge other Pentaxians' feelings on this. I am still not happy that Pentax ditched support for TTL, but then again, it doesn't really matter much for those who shoot in manual most of the time.</p>

[daniel_tong1]

<p>Jeff<br>

AF360 is a bad example. And a grossly underpowered one too. Did you have chance to try AF540, or Metz 58 or Sigma 530?</p>

<p>Daniel</p>

[musings]

<p>Daniel, I have tried them all (even from using P-TTL on my *istDL). Most of the results are *okay*, but I really don't like not having control of the flash output in P-TTL like I do in manual. And now that I am using Viv 283's and triggers (plus a handheld lightmeter), I am very, very, very happy with strobe lighting. I was wondering who else felt the same way re: Pentax and P-TTL.</p>

[david_n1]

<p>Jeff, I use an SB24 in the hotshoe usually in Auto or Manual depending of the shooting conditions. Seems to work fine. Manual is always my preference. Even when shooting an event it can be easier to get an exposure manually in a given setting and be assured the sensor is not being fooled by something too dark/bright in the frame. Of course there are times when you just set it to Auto and get the shots you need. My choice has nothing to do with a bias against p-ttl. Many report it works just fine. My guess... p-ttl is like any auto exposure sytem - it mostly works but it can be fooled. Manual puts you in charge. The SB24 was the cheapest route available to me at the time. The one thing that I could really use is focus assist for low light - not available on the SB24/Pentax combo. As far as the on board p-ttl flash, nothing will do a better job at making your $1000 DSLR look like a $200 P&S. Not the fault of p-ttl. Except for fill flash the direct flash looks bad in p-ttl, auto and manual.</p>

[musings]

<p>David -- your thoughts summed up my sentiment exactly. Well said. I am at the stage now where I shoot with a two-flash rig -- SB30 in manual and the 360 in either manual or PTTL (only for bounce). Nothing against the PTTL system as you stated (and perhaps all of the TTL systems are the same) but the opportunity for the Pentax sensor to get fooled is just too high and the predictability of the outcome is nil. Manual puts you back in charge.</p>

<p>I would be interested in Lindy's comments on Canon's TTL system and Justin's on Nikon (although I believe Justin shoots manual only w/ the 285's) vis-a-vis Pentax P-TTL. </p>

[michael_elenko]

<p>Jeff,<br>

I guess I don't totally share your perception here. I shoot events professionally using a Metz 58AF and P-TTL. One component in my USER preset is to up the flash output by 1EV. When the autofocusing system is set to AF.S the focus assist works quite well. But I also set the camera mode to Manual which allows a more accurate DOF for my needs. That usually works just fine.</p>

<p>I respect a fully manual approach hugely and also have an ancient Vivitar that is faithful. Sometimes I'll use the flash in full Manual when I need lots of light over a broad area and it works fine too.</p>

<p>To me the larger variable is how I position the flash with the bracket and how I configure the diffuser. My peers tell me that they like how my strobe shots have light fall on the subjects in fairly subtle ways--enough for details but not the white/blue wash.</p>

<p>ME</p>

[bkpix]

<p>I find I get as good results from an old 280T used in auto mode on my K20D as I do with the pop-up flash. Flash metering is complex and often still requires human intervention, even on my Canon system (two 550 ex flashes and a wireless controller). Given the instant feedback of digital, older flashes shot in auto or manual work about as well as the expensive stuff.</p>

[paul_noble]

<p>Jeff, be careful using Vivitar 283's. Some of them had very high trigger voltage. I had one that had a voltage at the hotshoe of about 120 volts, which is enough to fry the electronics in a dslr. Not all 283's are alike; they changed over the years and some have safe voltage. The only way to tell is to measure it with a digital voltmeter.</p>

<p>I was told by Pentax that my K10D could handle a trigger voltage of about 25 volts. Any more and I was risking damage.</p>

<p>The Vivitar 285HV is known to be safe. The plain 285 (without the HV suffix) apparently has the same variation as the 283; some are okay, others are not.</p>

<p>To be safe, use a Wein Safe-Sync or a slave flash trigger with a 283.</p>

<p>Paul Noble</p>

[personalphotos]

<p>Jeff even though I own and use an AF3560 and an AF540. They have become the 'backups' or the flashes I use when I just need to do it fast. They work fine but I often feel I'm "fighting" with my gear when I use them and I hate that. It really breaks the flow.</p>

<p>So now I have a couple AF400T's and they are the flash of choice. One was left over from my LX days that I never sold and decided to 'relearn' on the K10D. With practice I get much better results and I can now estimate the exposures better than P-TTL in most situations. With a little chimping, I much prefer the results. I've since bought 2 more + Quantum batteries (700 - 900 shots with fast recycle times) and will probably grab 2 more sometime just as spare backups. With weddings, they get heavy use and since they are not made any more, irreplaceable and probably hard to get parts for.</p>

[trw]

<p>I use flash in three types of situations:</p>

<p>For planned shots (studio, outdoor, environmental, still life, etc.) I use a couple of sunpaks, manually, with radio triggers, often gelled to match ambient, and may also use up to 3 Vivitar 2800's at full power and an opus pocket fill flash (sometimes I use it to replace the light bulbs in lamps). The Vivitars and opus pocket flash I trigger optically. Sometimes these sources are balanced with or cross-lit with existing light sources.</p>

<p>For event coverage where I have time to set up, I set up the sunpaks with sealed-lead-acid battery packs to cover the area of the room I'm interested in, possibly direct but off-axis, sometimes hard cross-light, and sometimes with omnidirectional or softening modifiers, Usually gelled to match ambient, often balanced with ambient.</p>

<p>For quick snapshots in poor light, I do use the pop-up flash on my K10d, but gelled CTO, in AV, Slow sync, -0.7 flash comp, "WB when using flash: unchanged", and often exposure compensation dialled in too. Usually I use the FA50/1.4 or FA35/2 wide open (or nearly) in these situations. Basically I just use it as fill to reduce noise at high ISO.</p>

<p>You can see a bunch of my flash work in the "Events", "Weddings and Handfastings", and Photography: "Harbour City Photo Club" galleries on <a href="http://trentwhaley.smugmug.com">my smugmug site</a>, <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/26831130@N04/">my flickr photostream</a>, and also <a href="http://www.stainedglassstudio.ca">a website I shot for</a>.</p>

<p>I have not tried P-TTL with a hotshoe flash, but I was thinking of getting a Metz 48 this year so I could use it for run & gun type events. I have some other non-photography expenses that have to be dealt with first though.</p>

[musings]

<p>Thanks, guys, all very useful input! I am not anti-PTTL (I do get okay results with it), but more pro-manual which seems inline with most of your experiences, too. I suppose that P-TTL is probably net-neutral for Pentax and no better or worse than Canon and Nikon. In a pinch, I know I could always rely on it, but I've gotten so used to using manual and get better results overall.</p>

<p>@Paul re: the 283's -- I only use them with radio triggers and never, ever mount them to the camera. I understand that the 285HV's are voltage-safe, but I don't think I would trust it completely. Better safe than sorry... :-)</p>

[ken_yee]

<p>how about someone who never has gone p-ttl? I decided to go strobist and get a few flashes w/ fleabay triggers instead of one 540 flash, given how much people complained about p-ttl (and similar complaints w/ Canon i-ttl and Nikon's e-ttl). When I need to, I run one of the flashes in A mode, but I'm glad I have a few flashes when I do off-cam work.<br>

I think the only things I wished I had are HSS in sunlight and rear curtain flash in dim light...</p>

 

[jptreen]

<p>I use M for off camera work, but in a fluid situation I tend to use 'A' mode on my Metz 58 AF-1. It works very nicely unless you get frames full of white or black, and then it mis-exposes accordingly. Just got to stay on-top of things!</p>

[leo_papandreou1]

<p>Like you I've found PTTL underexposes. Also, I don't like how some people close their eyes when it fires. For indoor snapshots, when I remember to bring a flash, I use a Metz 58 on auto or (with the mz-s) ordinary TTL. I use the SB30 for macro and with vivitars in studio-like situations, and also as a pseudo-popup flash with the F100 and F6 (yep, I've strayed backwards in time to the darkside.) I've never quite gotten the hang of PTTL and I'd prefer never to use PTTL but actually most of my flash photography is ad hoc, i.e. with the builtin PTTL flash, which is definitely better than darkness.</p>

[Member69643]

<p>I find the K20D and 360 a good bounce flash combo, with the reflector up. I add +0.5 compensation and get good results with P-TTL. The 360, IMHO, will discharge early, before it's fully charged, so pics get darker the faster you shoot. Has anyone else seen this phenomenon?</p>

[mountainvisions]

<p>Jeff,</p>

<p>First, thanks again for the tip on the SB-30, mine arrived late last week, and while I have not used it yet, the size and weight of it mean it will be used A LOT for both fill, and as amn optical trigger.<br>

<br /> <br /> Second, you already know my answer to your question. i ditched P-TTL a while ago, and those reading this saying well maybe Nikon is better with the CLS, all I can say is I'd probably not use CLS either.<br>

<br /> <br /> The reason is I like consistent results, and Nikon might be a bit better but overall, any of the P-TTL flash systems are like using green mode on the camera. The results are unknown. Worse they are not often consistent.</p>

<p>Once you set your ratios on manual, you get the same shot over and over.</p>

<p>There is a reason why Strobist recommends trashing (nikon or any brand) P-TTL in favor of manual and pocket wizards.</p>

<p>Oh, and why did I bring up Nikon? Because someone inevitably says, "I just wish the Pentax system worked like Nikon", which to me isn't all that great! It's like asking for something to be just a little less flawed, it's still flawed!</p>

<p>Anyway, the cool thing with digital is you can experiment when you have a fixed lighting setup to get the right results. i think in the film era P-TTL made more sense, oddly, I feel like in digital era, going old school will yield better results more often.</p>

<p>Oh, I do use P-TTL for daylight fill sometimes. Set it to -1 to -2 FEV and you usually get a nice balance! Plus, in daylight situations you need higher flash sync and our crappy 180th just doesn't cut it most of the time!</p>

[musings]

<p>Thanks, Justin, for the good info and glad you now have your SB-30 to play with. It's a really fun flash to use! I concur with your P-TTL comments, and it's interesting to see that in the digital era of "auto everything" that many people are moving towards manual control. I used to grumble a lot about (1) lack of consistency of P-TTL results, and (2) Pentax dropping support for TTL since I used to think that TTL flashes were the final solution to strobes. Boy, was I really wrong! HSS - yes; bounce lighting - yes, but that's about it...manual for everything else.</p>

[john carter]

<p>I have a series of flash situations that I either use manual or auto. Control is so much better. Bounce, indoor with compensation for including background, indoor no background, fill flash outdoors, background control shooting subject outdoors are all easy with only a auto/manual flash, but it has to have a high GN. Also, flash is much nicer when using film than digital. </p>

[shaloot]

<p>This is something I really want to learn/do more, using my flash in auto. The few times I'm using it, I just have it p-ttl and it seems I just can't guess/figure out how my photo is going to come out. It seems like I'm bouncing for all my flash shots even when I have it off-camera (wireless)...</p>