Poor attitude by retailers

[western_isles]

<p>I recently decided that I would purchase a carbon fibre tripod for use my Hasselblad/Mamiya/Nikon DSLR kit. I have been using an old, but very reliable Slik Black Diamond. My first Slik died due to overuse and exhaustion!<br>

Decided that it would be a Gitzo Traveller or a Manfrotto 190CX 3 or 4 section as I am getting old and gray and weak. Contacted a number of retailers who told me they did not have samples. They were at best reluctant to ask the their supplier (Bogen Imaging UK) to send samples. Their attitude was that they wanted me to simply place an order sight unseen. I was reluctant to pay up to £400 sterling without the benefit of a hands on comparison. Calumet in Glasgow actually told me that they did not deal with Gitzo although other Calumet branches did and they could not therefore justify a request. A unique experience, a retailer that does not want to make a sale!<br>

I then contacted Bogen Imaging UK who told me samples were "readily available" and when I pointed out to them that this was not the case I was met with thundering silence. I informed them that they could, if they wished, forward my email to suppliers in my area, Glasgow Scotland, but again have been met with a thundering silence.<br>

Is this just a problem in the UK? Is Scotland so insulated from the economic downturn that suppliers/retailers can turn away potential sales? <br>

It would be nice to think that Scotland is not suffering from the current economic problems but I know for a fact they we are not and the same applies to the rest of the UK/world.<br>

If I don't hear from Bogen soon then I will have to find an alternative supplier, possible even write to Gitzo/Manfroto direct.<br>

It would be interesting to hear from anyone else with the same/similar experience. I see no reason why photographers should have to put up with this sort of very poor service.</p>

<p> </p>

[brucecahn]

<p>I have a camera store and am a photographer, so I understand this from both sides. I used to stock all the Gitzo carbon fibers and could easily show them. But then a few years ago Gitzo revamped their lineup. There were suddenly so many models that it was impossible to stock them all. Space is a problem here. The other problem is that they change their models so quickly that only the largest stores could stock the line, because for a small retailer there was just too much chance of getting stuck with discontinued models. To call the importer and ask for samples is just not practical. First of all it would be a big nuisance, very possibly with no sale. Secondly who would pay for the shipping to the store and back if you don't want it? People think that camera stores make a lot of money. The truth is that we get one of the smallest markups in retail. There is just not enough money to be made in tripods for the smaller stores to bother with them. The result is that I have discontinued stocking tripods altogether. I can order any of the brands that we used to carry, but there would be no returns. You should go to a very large camera store like B&H or Adorama to see them. Maybe schedule a trip to NYC on your next vacation. Or you could order one from a store that stocks them and return it if you don't like it. Another option is to see them at a trade show.</p>

[frank_bunnik]

<p>Have you tried ffordes? I ordered a couple of times from them and liked their service. They are located in Scotland if I am not mistaken.</p>

[western_isles]

<p>Hi Bruce thanks for the input.<br>

I do see the point you make especially for the small retailer that it is not practical to stock whole lines. The cost and logistics of doing so would put a lot of companies out of business. However, my main complaint is the attitude from some retailers and distributors. The UK distributor for Gitzo/Manfrotto is Bogen and their attitude leaves a lot to be desired.<br>

Your idea of going to a large supplier is appealng especially as I am hoping to return to the USA for a vacation this summer. I may just hold off and visit B&H again.<br>

Thanks for the input.</p>

[ken_wayne1]

<p>So this poor service is not limited only to the United States I see!<br>

<br />These problems do not only reside in camera stores here in the States I can assure you. Customer service ( in my opinion ) is all but dead these days. It seems the retailers don't care if they have your business.<br>

<br />Here in the States one can never expect to go to a fast food restaurant and have a young person actually CARE if they are buying their product or not. Usually, they are teasing and playing with each other or talking on cell phones while making a sad attempt to wait on you.<br>

<br />I am an absolute freak for customer service so it is a very bothersome thing to me. I am in business for myself and treat my own customers as though they were Kings. Some of them don't know what to think....because they do not get to experience it that often.<br>

<br />If there is someone out there who relishes customer service then if you have even a remotely decent product you should be able to beat the competition easily. Customer service is relative to loving people and it seems people don't have time to love these days. Life is too busy.<br>

<br />A friend of mine was discussing these things with me one day and he offered this advice:<br />"If you lower your expectations you wont be disappointed so much."<br>

<br />Never!</p>

[david_henderson]

<p>You can place an order sight unseen on the Internet/phone and if you don't like it, return it under distance selling regulations. Indeed you can place an order for both candidates with two Internet/phone suppliers with the full intention of sending one back. And where do you think you're going to get the best advice on the pro's and cons of each candidate. Well I'd hazard a guess that its going to be on the internet ( maybe on a site like this one) rather than from a retailer that has possibly never handled the models you're after.</p>

<p>This is the dilemma that photographic retailers have to resolve, otherwise they won't be there and won't be lamented much. If they won't hold stock, often can't compete on price, don't deliver any knowledge or advice that you can't get better elsewhere, in many cases staff their stores with people that don't know much and don't seem to care, and have a tendency to begrudge giving prospective customers help because they might run off and buy more cheaply elsewhere, what hope is there for them? Unless they do something ( that customers value) better than remote competitors, their future has to be grim. </p>

<p>That said I'm kind of surprised by Calumet. Other than them I reckon to get better availability , better prices, better advice, more convenience, and better service remotely than in a camera shop. The OP here is right to be disappointed. But possibly wrong to be surprised.</p>

[mark liddell]

<p>The only advantage that retailers have over online shops is the ability to try thing out first hand. If they deny customers this they are shooting themselves in the foot.<br>

The worst service I have had was buying my Nikon D700. I went into the shop and asked to handle it - they said they would not unbox such an expensive camera for me to handle. I told them I was not dropping £1800 on a camera I have not handled, that they had just lost an £1800 sale and went elsewhere</p>

[berlinhennig]

<p>The sword always is two sided. On the one side, there is no real customer service anymore and on the other side there is no real customer anymore. While the missing customer service is damned all days long, not many talking about the behavior of the customers too.<br>

<br /><br>

It is not that long ago, since customers ran from their locak stores to mega-stores, then they left the mega-stores and went to eBay. So they killed small (& very personally) businesses and the good ole flea markets (or their offers) and now the mega-stores are starting to die.<br>

<br /><br>

In Germany for the last 10 years only a slogan of one mega-store killed both quality and the prices of a nation once wellknown for their "made in Germany". Words are sharper than a sword - "Geiz ist geil" what means <em><strong>avarice is terriffic</strong> </em> . This should show a new consumer mentality, but it only became an army of went gaga customers unable to make out the difference between quality and China trash or fake discount offers by pre-added percentage.<br>

<br /><br>

This is our new world, we did not have done anything to prevent it, now we have to live (or die) with it.<br>

<br /> <br /></p>

<p>+++ soylent green is everywhere +++</p>

[luca_stramare2]

<p>I agree, the possibility to try thing out first hand, together with hands on advice from competent people are the only things that can keep traditional shops alive.<br>

On the other side I must notice that things are moving really fast. In the good old days the life span of a product was several years and the price was stable. It was relatively easy for a shop to get one piece of equipment, add the margin and keep it on sale. They had years time to do. Nowadays if something stays on the shelves for more than a few weeks, chances are that it gets replaced with something else and has to be sold with discount, even at a lower price than it was actually paid.<br>

Plus, we have lost the value of things. We are getting to the point that the lowest price is THE price, and all the rest is a steal, there is no more the value of something, with a bargain (lower price) somewhere and a steal (higher price) somewhere else. Everybody just expects to pay the lowest price (i.e. THE price) and get the best service (i.e. THE service).<br>

Last but not least, until not so many years ago, a camera shop could afford to sell you a camera or a lens with a small profit, because you were coming back to buy film and have it processed and printed. Now this income has disappeared, in the digital age there are no consumables.<br>

Apart from bad experiences, like Mark's one, things are getting really difficult for camera shops, especially for the small ones. I have seen many of them closing. Unfortunately there is no easy answer andm whatever will happen, we have to make the best out of it.</p>

[ken_wayne1]

<p>D.O.,<br>

I give your comments applause. Very good words and thank for reminding us of this double edged sword.</p>

<p>My brother-in-law is an optometrist and he loathes the likes of mega stores here in the States such as Wal-mart because they do so much damage to the small entrepreneur.</p>

<p>It seems older age can bring about a bit of wisdom. I do understand now in my older age that the best price isn't always the best deal.</p>

<p>It is good to patronize small business owners even if they can't give you an item for 2 pennies cheaper.</p>

<p>Thanks again for your wise words.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>In a small shop one can bend over backwards; give blood; work long hours and folks will still say their is no customer service at all. Yesterday I worked 14 hours. I have three RMA/returns ; two are for item(s) I never sold; the customer bought it on line; it gets dumped on me since I am the local factory seller for this item.</p>

<p>No matter what time you spend with the lookies you are an ahole; your prices are a tad higher than mailrorder/internet; PLUS we have to charges sales taxes.<br>

<br /> The digital age has consumables; it is paper and ink cartridges. Paper has a decent return for a small store; ink cartridges often is a loss; folks return their internet/mailorder cartridges and "demand a refund/replacement" for an item you never even sold them.</p>

<p>The entitlement DNA in most folks think no matter how much free service a local store gives; its not enough. You are a toilet to them; a place for free rentals; a place to return your warranty repairs; a place to see what a gizmo looks like before you mailorder it.</p>

<p>Give me; Give me; Give me! :)</p>

<p>When a local shop closes or drops a product line you are sad; you have no toilet to take a dump in; no place to demand a free loaner; no place to dog that one has no service.</p>

[gdw]

<p>Amen, Kelly. I'm not a retailer but you hit the nail on the head.<br>

For Frank and all the other whiners. Start going to your local retailers to BUY something, spend some money, become a valued customer--then you will get the respect you feel your are automatically owed. Respect isn't automatic it is a two way street, you treat the local store with disrespect and want your tush kissed every time you enter the door. If I were a retailer I would identify the fingerprinters and bar them from the store, period. Jeeze, what a wimpie whinie world photography has become.</p>

 

[western_isles]

<p>Gary, first of all I take exception to your description of me as a "whiner". You have no justification for saying that. I have been a customer of camera stores for the past 20 years and continue to buy film, yes film, on a regular basis. In addition, I have a considerable amount of kit purchased over the years such as Mamiya 7 bodies (2) and lens (4), Hasselblad kit, Nikon DSLR, Olympus OM (sold to a retailer), Mamiya TLR bdodies and full lens kit etc etc.<br>

You have managed to bring this debate down to a level which is completely unacceptable. If you cannot be civil then please do not make any comments on this site. Your remark about "want your tush kissed" is offensive to say the least.<br>

I would ask that the site administrator bar you from makng future postings. </p>

[steve_mareno]

<p>The easiest solution would be to haunt the internet and buy another Slik Black Diamond, since you enjoyed using the one you had. Like Gary said, it's a two way street, but from my perspective a camera shop is the LAST place I would buy anything. Some of the rudest, most unqualified people I have met in photography reside in those places (this is my real world experience. If someone here runs a good shop, thanks), and if I have to buy something new, which is almost never, I buy on the internet and avoid all that monkey business. It was a simple decision that improved the quality of my photography gear buying a thousand fold.</p>

[ronald_moravec1]

<p>My two local stores care, Calumet in Oakbrook, Illinois and La Grange Camera and video. I buy locally whenever i can and hope to keep them in business. </p>

<p>Small stores do have a problem because it cost money to have samples of everything. Usually you have to keep one for general demonstration and order specific models. If you need to pick one up off the shelf, B&H or Adorama.</p>

<p>You see the internet and big box stores have userped much of the camera store business so those profits can not be used to finance other slower moving stock. Typically what happens with big box is they carry but a few items, but not a whole line. Then they undercut the local specialty retailer. But what happenswhen you need a 52>55 step up ring or a lens shade. Don`t go to big box for that. They can`t even order it for you.</p>

<p>I heard the president of Walmart on an interview with Charlie Rose say their customes like the limited selection of product. Keeps them from having to decide. Well I don`t and avoid those places whenever possible. The real reason is floor space and inventory cost money.</p>

[david_henderson]

<p><em>"what happenswhen you need a 52>55 step up ring or a lens shade. Don`t go to big box for that. They can`t even order it for you."</em><br>

<em></em><br>

The best source of photography "bits" available to me is a phone and internet based operation with no retail arm. Its pretty much the same guy who picks up their phone all the time and he knows his stuff. </p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Frank -</p>

<p>Interesting post and some interesting responses -</p>

<p>Personally I try to buy local as much as possible - why? because it keeps jobs in the community and helps them out.</p>

<p>I'm not a big try it before I buy it guy. I'll purchase an item based on reviews, specs, need etc... If I can try it great - If I can't then I can't ... I understand the retail world enough to know that there is no way that a store can possibly stock every item made or variant there of. If I buy something and it's not up to snuff there's e-bay, craigslist, or other options.</p>

<p>Is it poor service? Maybe but it's what we've got.</p>

[stephen_asprey2]

<p>No one outside of Adorama and B&H carry much stock. I'm in Australia and the dealers pnly carry all the cheap crap, and only order the quality stuff if you place an order. The same goes for cameras. I know one dealer here who matches the above two on landed price here, but again he never has stock.<br>

I just buy over the internet now and pay the freight. They both have a good returns policy as well.</p>

[thomas_hardy1]

<blockquote>

<p>Customer service ( in my opinion ) is all but dead these days. It seems the retailers don't care if they have your business.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I've been looking at a website which gives advice about hotels and travel. There are so many complaints about poor service at expensive luxury hotels that I'm afraid to even book a trip.<br>

<br /></p>

[steve_lajoie]

<p>Interesting discussion. I spent years in retail management (not photo) and am an unabashed gearhead.</p>

<p>The local situation will dictate what is available. From that local situation, your decisions may influence what kind of service may be available.</p>

<p>My advice: Crawl your local shops. Get to know the Owners/Managers/Key Salespeople. Be friendly, and be honest with them. Do your research, both on the gear you seek and the pricing from alternative suppliers. Share what you know with those key people in the shops. Don't threaten them with what you learn from your research, but discuss it openly and honestly.</p>

<p>Decide what premium you are willing to pay for personal service. I was ready to pay CDN$20.00 more for a pair of snowshoes at a local retailer than I would have paid had I purchased the same pair online from MEC. The local retailer's representative had walked me through the various models, their advantages and shortcomings. He also introduced me to another regular customer who was an enthusiast and had his own perspective. He then invited me to a demo day the retailer had organized with 3 manufacturers at a local nordic resort. (This is not to bash MEC...they have a great organization with great and helpful people, but they are not local to me!)</p>

<p>I think $20.00 was a good investment in keeping this retailer in town. MEC's online folks could not have provided me with this level of help in reaching the decision that was correct for me. </p>

<p>When I went to purchase, I found that the local retailer had also been listening to thier customers. They had matched MEC's pricing on the shoes. And they had developed a customer reward program.</p>

<p>If you can not get this level of service in your local area, by all means, take your trade to the cheapest reliable source available. The poor stores will either adapt or die out, and hopefully someone with a better handle on retail will come in to fill the void.</p>

<p>Frank: As to your particular problem - When I was in retail, I recieved regular visits from manufacturers/distributors sales representatives. If I had a customer with a unique problem that my product lineup could not solve, I would ask the rep to bring up samples and arrange a meeting with the customer. Perhaps you could ask one of your locals if this could be arranged?</p>

<p>There are also a number of comments in this thread about the behaviour of customers. A difficult subject. I also spent a great deal of time with browsers, trolls and the despicable cheapskate who would take the education I provided and cross the street to a big box retailer to save a few dollars or take advantage of a no-payment plan. I learned early that I could not cut corners on anyone. Sometimes the troll recommended me to thier friends. The browser spent a year in my store consuming hours of my time but finally surprised me when he/she walked in the door with the cash and made that purchase. The cheapskate got fed up with dealing with the revolving door of uncaring, untrained, commission-driven staff at the big box and started buying the (higher margin) consumables with my stores.<br>

Good business is about good relationships. If you can't find one, try to make one.</p>

<p>Good luck with finding what you want. Make the right decision and pay a fair price.</p>

<p>Steve</p>

 

[brucecahn]

<p>I went to B&H Photo today to buy a Nikon D90. I should mention that my camera store does not carry digital or small format. The service at B&H was great, everything I asked for was in stock, everyone in the store was friendly, and they had a demo for me to try. So customer service is not dead. There has been a gradual but steady improvement in service at B&H over the years, until now it can only be called excellent. Unfortunately I am not so sure I like the camera. I am used to large format, and found this thing unnecessarily complex and endlessly annoying to use. And people think that large format takes patience.</p>

[buffdr_rasouliyan]

<p>I just like to say that 2 weeks ago I had 3 local camera stores close since they couldn't keep up with the Internet. Now I don't have a choice any more to shop there. I know they are more expensive than the internet retailers but sometimes convenience is nice. About a year ago while I was shooting a wedding, I put my 30D WITH my 17-55 2.8 down and grabbed my 5D with the 70-200 to shoot, in less than 10min my 30D and 17-55 were gone. At the time I had 2 30D and 2 5Ds but I only had one 17-55. So I went down to my LOCAL store and dropped 1390.00 for a 17-55 since I had a wedding booked the next day. Now I know I can get the same lens from eBay for 1K but I NEEDED it now. I hope you resolve your tripod issue. v/r Raz</p>

[d_syd]

<p>I guess experiences can vary widely from place to place. Mine has been that I have tried to support local businesses even if things cost a bit more than on the internet, but the ones nearest me just don't seem to care.<br>

For example I was in one that is a small chain of photo shops- so not a one-off independant and not a big box- and I was the only customer in the place, late afternoon on a weekday, and I was there trying my best to look casually interested in some assistance, and three different clerks just completely ignored me, apparently playing nintendo at their workstations. This went on for a good 15 - 20 minutes until I finally had to interrupt them from their busy game of donkey kong and ask for some help. Even then the guy made me feel like I was keeping him from something more important. And I was looking at photo backpacks, not nickel and dime accessories. It absolutely turned me off and I ended up walking out politely but without making any purchase.<br>

The other thing that bugs me is these shops that close at 5 PM. C'mon, stretch it to 6 at least for all the folk with normal day jobs. That alone can drive me to buy some things off the internet.<br>

That said, D.O. I also give your comments applause- ther is the double edged sword and we have largely become a culture of spoiled and deluded consumers.</p>

 

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>Frank,</p>

<p>I am a photographic retailer and while we hold stock of everything we sell, I can sympathise with many retailers who don't hold stock of more expensive items that you are referring to. As Bruce pointed out, some manufacturers have such a large range of tripods that keeping one of each in stock on the off chance of making a sale just isn't practical these days. I really feel for high street stores who must be sick of people going in and handling all their stock then leaving without buying anything... they'll go straight back home and order the same item off the internet for less money. So, in a way, I don't blame the high street stores at all for not keeping large stocks.</p>

<p>As David pointed out, you can legally buy a tripod (or anything) from an internet retailer, handle it as much as you want and then return it for a full refund under the UK distance selling regulations. As long as it's still as new and complete with all packaging the retailer legally has to accept the return. Whilst the distance selling regulations are excellent news for consumers they can be abused by shoppers and the retailers can suffer.</p>

<p>It's a sign of the times. Expect high street stores to stock less, and internet retailers to stock more.</p>

[stuart_richardson]

<p>I can see this situation worsening for local retailers as well as the internet technology improves. Right now we just have static photos of equipment (if there are photos at all), but already there are stores (mostly clothing) who offer 3D, zoomable presentations of the products. While it is not the same thing as handling it in person, this technology will only improve, making it easier to get a better idea of the item you are considering.<br>

And as others have said, there is generally (GENERALLY) better advice available on the internet than there is available in brick and mortar stores. I think the way things are going, the medium sized, general purpose stores are the ones that are having the most difficulty. They are the ones that are expected have everything, yet still have to give bottom dollar prices.<br>

I think things are going towards the extremes -- the B&H, Adorama, Calumet (slight exception in that they have many smaller stores that do not carry the full line like the NYC/Chicago/LA stores), Yodobashi model of being a giant store with a huge worldwide customer base. The other extreme is the small, boutique camera store that may have a physical shop, but also has an online presence. These people succeed through their specialized knowledge -- examples are our Bruce (and his field camera store...where I bought my lovely Ebony!), the Photo Village, Popflash Photo, and most of the medium format digital people like Capture Integration, PPI, Badger Graphics, and maybe even Fotocare. The regular local camera store cannot keep up with either the inventory and pricing of the giants, or the specialized knowledge and customer service of the boutique shops. <br>

I think it was film sales and processing that was really keeping the medium sized local camera stores in business -- customers had to come in on a regular basis to drop off and pick up film, and while they were there they generally bought the smaller supplies they needed. This created a relationship that made them feel more comfortable buying something larger there, rather than making a special trip to the city for the large store, or mail order. Now most people only need to visit a camera store to buy something large, and they are more focused on how much it costs than their relationship with the dealer (which is not strong since they are rarely there). They are just as likely to stay at home and just have it sent to them, finding the best price, and if they are in the US, they will also avoid sales tax, which can be a substantial amount on a large purchase. </p>