135 Sironar S...Would You change it with 120 Super Angulon?

[adam_mirko]

<p>Hello to All...</p>

<p>I've got some dubts about my 135 sironar S...I've bought it form Robert White as a new item...I've tried it for some subjects and I have to say that the quality of lens and sharpness is outstanding.<br>

but yestrday i've got some problems with an architecture photo... I've seen that the coverage is not soo much to let me move the camera body to apply the Sheimpflug teory...my film got a piece of circle on the left frame...<br>

So now I don't know what to do...the lens is new, and my idea was to sell and try to find a used Super Symmar 110 XL...but I didn't find it until now...<br>

I've find a used Super Angulon 120 f 8... What about this lens? Does it have enough coverage for my kind of work? And quality and sharpness? is it outstanding like my Sironar S? Do I need the bag bellow or can I use my Shen-Hao without it?<br>

Thank You in advance.<br>

Adam</p>

[michael_morris3]

<p>Adam,<br>

I have a 135 Apo Sironar S and as you found, it does not have the coverage of say, the 115mm gradagon or the 210 Apo sironar S but I have used it with significant movements but it requires stopping down much more than I normally do. The 135mm has a coverage of 208mm when stopped down to f/22. The 115 grandagon is a bit slower at f/6.8 but has an image circle of 291mm at f/22. You may want to find one of these 115mm beasts.</p>

[bob_salomon]

<p>And the center filter for the Grandagon as it is a wide angle and you will be using movements into the fall off of the lens.</p>

[adam_mirko]

<p>If I find a 115 Grandagon N does I need a bag bellow? And the uality of sharpness is close to my 135 or different?<br>

About the center filter...I've always read about it, but I don't know how to use it...are u sure that when I use it, it works fine for all the film side?<br>

For example...if I swich the frontal lens to left, maybe I'll get the fall of light to a side of my film....or all around?<br>

I'm almost new in large format, so I have to practice more...but I have to travel within 2 weeks so I need as more as possible informations.<br>

Thank You so much to all<br>

Adam</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>The 120mm SA is a superb lens. I'd take it over just about anything else in that range.</p>

[bob_salomon]

<p>If you need a WA bellows and/or a recessed lens board depends on the design of the camera and its bellows.</p>

[stefan_geschke]

<p>Well. It depends what you want. The 135 Sironar S (one of my favorite lenses) is small, light, sharp and does pretty well at larger magnifications. The only aspect where the Superangulon is better is image circle. Have yout thought about 110mm SSXL? That should be a lot sharper than the SA. (Way more expensive though, at least on the used market, I would guess.)</p>

[michael_briggs2]

<p>A 110 mm SS-XL, 115 mm Grandagon-N, or 120 Fuji-SW, Nikkor-SW or Super-Angulon will have much more coverage than a 135 mm plasmat lens. You will probably find it difficult to run out of coverage with 4x5 film. As stated already, with some cameras you might need a bag bellows or (less likely) a recessed lens board to realize the full potential of these lenses. It depends on whether the standards of your camera can approach circa 120 mm apart, and how flexible the standard bellows is when compressed to this length. Probably a bag bellows would allow more movements. I've use a 110 mm SS-XL and have used a 120 mm Nikkor-SW. I have only one photo with the 110 SS-XL for which I wished I had used a center filter. I probably could have just increased the exposure (it was negative film). I don't think a center filter is particularly needed with these lenses and 4x5.</p>

[adam_mirko]

<p>thank You to all...anyway I've found a 115 grandagon n 6.8 and now I'm in crisis because 2 motivations:<br>

the first 1 is that I like my 135mm sironar s cause is new, and does very sharp prints...but doesn't permits large movements with my Shen-Hao HZX 45 II A.<br>

The second one is that I don't know how the 115 Grandagon works...I don't know if the quality of the lens and its sharpness are great like my 135...<br>

Anyway my camera is Shen-Hao HZX 45 II A.<br>

Could someone help me to understand the various differences between these two lenses?<br>

Waiting your answers<br>

Thank You in advance<br>

Adam</p>

[bob_salomon]

<p>Grandagon or Grandagon-N?</p>

<p>Since you have the S you would want to compare performance to the Grandagon-N MC version to be as equal as possible. You will still need the center filter for the 115 to even out the illumination unless you prefer the uncorrected fall-off. </p>

[adam_mirko]

<p>Grandagon N 115 6.8<br>

Do I really need in every situation the center filter on my Shen-Hao 4x5?</p>

[bob_salomon]

<p>Doesn't matter what camera you have. A wide angle lens design like the Grandagons, Super Angulons, Super Symmar XXL have fall off from center to edge. As it has less illumination on the edges and you want to use shifts you will have more fall off at one end of the image compared to the other edges. This is corrected by: a center filter and stopping the lens down at least 2 stops (center filter will not work otherwise) so you lose 2 stops of light + the filter factor which will cost another 1.3 stops of light. Or overlight the edges of the scene to correct for the len falloff. This is difficult to do outdoors. Or dodge and burn the negative while printing. This is cumbersome and difficult to repeat to make duplicate prints and does not work well if shooting transparencies.<br>

72° and 75° coverage lenses like the Apo Sironar S do not have fall off that requires correction like those WA ones do and, of course they have a smaller circle of illumination and are much smaller and lighter and use smaller and less expensive filters which also weigh less. The S optically will outperform the WA types with less distortion and better color and MTF curves. So you might want to investigate how to make the 135mm work for you. Or use a camera that has optical axis movements so there is less or no shifting of the image position and the focus on the film so less movements might be possible.</p>

[adam_mirko]

<p>I see. In this case, I prefer to stay with my 135mm than get other problems purchasing a bag bellow, a center filter, a recessed lens board cause I work outside and I'm not sure if I will need so much this lens... anyway I won't use so extended moviments.<br>

Thank You so much<br>

Adam</p>

[sergio_ortega7]

The 120mm Super angulon and the Nikkor 120mm SW are both huge lenses compared to the tiny 135mm Sironar-S. Front attachment thread

sizes are equally large, so any filters or attachments will be expensive to buy if you don't already use something that large.

 

Coverage is also huge. I used a 120mm Nikkor SW and it would just cover 8x10, with little to no movements, and it worked really well for 4x10

panaromic format.

 

For most lightweight, field-type, folding 4x5 cameras I'd say these big 120mm Nikkor and Schneider lenses would be a bit much to handle.

The camera's front standard would have to be pretty solid to support the weight. With a more solid 4x5 studio rail design, these lenses would

be very good for architecture and extreme movements. You might need a bag bellows to get the maximum amount of movement/coverage these 120mm lenses afford.

 

Also, the large rear elements of these 120mm lenses might not fit into the front standard/bellows frames of most 4x5 cameras. I believe the

Nikkor 120SW uses a 77mm rear element, and the 120mm Super Angulon has a similarly sized rear element. So, check to see if your camera

will accept such a large rear element.

[michael_briggs2]

<p>I don't know why Bob is so negative on the wide-coverage lenses. Rodenstock (which he represents in some manner) also sells the Grandagon-N. Modern wide-coverage types have low distortion. The Grandgon(N)/Super-Angulon/Nikkor-SW/Fuji-SW have improved fall-off. Few 4x5 photographers use a center filter with a 90 mm lens of these types. I see no need to use one with a 115 / 120 mm lens and 4x5. The main drawbacks of these lenses are their weight / size / filter size / rear element size / cost / lower maximum speed for focusing. The Super-Symmar-XL is faster and smaller, but more expensive. The SS-XL doesn't have the improved fall-off performance (via the tilting pupils technique), but 4x5 photographers still typically don't find a center filter necessary. My recommendation with these lenses is to try them out and see from your photographs whether you see excessive illumination falloff. My guess: on 4x5, probably not. </p>

<p>You can probably figure out whether you would need a recessed board by seeing how closely you can position the standards of your camera. Many field cameras can handle a 90 mm lens and would have no problem with a 110 -- 120 mm lens. It's a tradeoff -- if architectural photography is important enough to you, then one of these lenses would probably be very useful for its angle of view and very wide coveage, despite its weight and size. But if you don't do much architecture, then it may not be worth the effort (e.g., weight, possible bag bellows, etc.)</p>

[bob_salomon]

<p>Micheal,</p>

<p>The OP indicated that with the movements that he used he ran out of coverage on the 135mm. That would mean that with a WA he would not have equal illumination across the film area and could only even it out using the methods I mentioned, the easiest of which is the center filter.<br>

If he uses the 115 without much displacement then you are correct, he probably would not see the fall off. But that was not how he said that he was shooting.</p>

[doremus_scudder1]

<p>Lightweight, cheaper alternative: (assuming you don't want to spend lots and/or have a huge, unwieldy lens in the field.)</p>

<p>Kodak Wide-Field Ektar 135mm. 229mm image circle, can be adapted to take 52 or 55mm filters, single coated, sharp. Just make sure to get one in good optical shape. About $300 used.</p>

<p>Other thoughts: older Fuji W 135mm, also 228mm image circle (the 125mm W, old-style also has a pretty good image circle too, and the slightly shorter focal length can help in your situation) These lenses are also both single-coated. Or, you could get one of the lighter wide-angle designs in a shorter focal length (e.g., SA 90mm f.8 or similar) and then crop the image.</p>

<p>Best,</p>

<p>Doremus Scudder</p>

[odama]

When I bought that kind of lens, my personal choice was the Schneider Apo-Symmar L-120/5.6, and I'm very happy with it, I don't need to much camera movements. A bit wider than the 135 Sironar S, and similar lightweight lens too...

When I need a more wider perspective I use a Super-Angulon XL 72/5.6. That's all.

[friedemann_pistorius]

<p>Another vote for the already mentioned Fujinon-W 135, which has indeed 228mm image circle and is an outstanding performer. It has a 46mm filter thread and is very small and light.<br>

If you're interested, look at keh.com, they have some nice samples from time to time. If you like to learn more details, contact me via e-mail. I own and use one.</p>

<p>Friedemann</p>