"The scent of an unseen flower - news from a counry we haven't visited" (C.S. Lewis)

[don_e]

<p>Kristina, that is Lewis Carroll, not C.S. Lewis</p>

 

[Art X Photography]

<p>Pnina:"Art You did not refer to the point that it is not ethic"<br /> On the 26th I posted: "The "lie" that I cannot forgive is that of a photographer who purposly points their lens to capture an image that may stir emotions in viewers to which they do not subscribe to themselves. Capturing the misery of the homeless or desolate because it may make for a great image rather than because they want to bring to the forefront the injustices of the world are immediate examples I can think of here."<br /> my subsequent postings continue to question and challenge the intent with which photographers document those less fortunate. I think these postings are pretty self explanatory about my reference to the unethical photography of the homeless Pnina.<br /> Pnina: " A coins and even a smile is not going to really better his situation,let alone his will to be photographed if asked."<br>

I beg to differ Pnina. A coin here and a coin there WILL make a difference (it's a matter of degree much the same way as when you compare YOUR financial situation to that of the extremely wealthy. The value of $100 to you would seem insignificant to them, much the same way as a coin to you might seem insignificant) certainly more so than walking on the other side of the street and pretending you didn't see them. No one WANTS their misfortune documented and I'm not implying that when I say I thank those for ensuring this topic remains in the forefront of our minds by photographing it, that they are necessarily doing the homeless a service. What they are ensuring is that we never forget it even if we choose never to walk down the, so called, mean streets Don refers to<br>

Don E: "What becomes entrenched in the minds of people is the notion that homelessness is something affecting bums and winos rather than people like themselves"<br>

If thats all that is documented then thats all that will be portrayed. Does the image of the migrant mother give you that impression Don? what about the image of the homeless war veteran on veterans day? it certainly doesn't to me.<br /> The tell tale signs (Fred has previously referred to) often show if a photographer is genuine in there documentation or simply out to get a "good"(NOT) shot. Dont know about the US but here in Australia the "easy" shots (of "winos" and bums")are often right outside your door, while those such as the image of a migrant mother require a deeper sense of exploration (including inner exploration). btw I don't subscribe to the view that the "wino" or Bum" (both derogatory terms in my view) don't stir as much emotion in me as does the image of the migrant mother (or for that matter the photograph of animals in cages exploited and abused, something which hasn't been mentioned in any of the posting here so far)<br /> If one views an image and simply assumes, then their ignorance of the homeless is perpetuated. On the other hand if viewing such images makes them question, explore and investigate so as to become AWARE then that image HAS achieved something special (much the same way as the images of abu ghraibe prison made us all AWARE of what was happening there).</p>

 

[don_e]

<p>"If thats all that is documented then thats all that will be portrayed. Does the image of the migrant mother give you that impression Don? what about the image of the homeless war veteran on veterans day? it certainly doesn't to me."</p>

<p>I am making a distinction between "homelessness" and "The Homeless". I don't buy the notion that photographing The Homeless is commonly motivated by humanistic concerns. Lange was not photographing "The Homeless", but the homelessness of one specific real individual and her children. She captured, I think, the dread of it. In Florence Owens Thompson's gaze one sees the dread of no future and endless toil.</p>

<p>"both derogatory terms in my view"</p>

<p>Yes, it is the miniscule slice of homelessness snapped a billion times that renders a crude response.</p>

 

[Art X Photography]

<p>Don: "I don't buy the notion that photographing The Homeless is commonly motivated by humanistic concerns"<br>

I completely agree with you Don, and am not arguing to the contrary (please refer to my earlier postings)<br>

your distinction between the "homeless" and "homelessness" has hit me like a bolt of lightning (thanks for that) because it's surmised what I've been 'trying' to say all along and is exactly the distinction I've been trying to make myself, all be it in a very round about way (in an attempt to elaborate on Fred's original question to me posted on the 25th).<br>

Deciding to capture 'homelessness' as a subject matter inevitably requires subject/s, that is, the 'homeless' (please correct me if I've missunderstood your distinction here Don). For me genuine intent is evident in the collage of images (homelessness) to which a single photo belongs to (homeless). That said, there are singular images, such as that of the migrant mother, who's creator (the photographer) has the ability to transcend the power of such collages through their use of perspective and context. For me, such singular images are few and far between and rely as much on the photographer's technical skill as on their intent and so are an exception to my rule.<br>

(on a side note: as much as i appreciate and am grateful for the thought provoking postings made here, I cannot help but wonder if this topic should be kept for a different forum to the current one)</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>"(on a side note: as much as i appreciate and am grateful for the thought provoking postings made here, I cannot help but wonder if this topic should be kept for a different forum to the current one)."</p>

<p>(On a side note, I agree, Art. An interesting tangent, but rather specific and seemingly little related to the topic; however I must confess to not having read everything on it, so maybe I am (have) disconnected)</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>I don't find the topic of photographing the homeless at all tangential to the notion of the scent of the unseen flower. Photos of homeless people are very real examples of, for the most part, a lack of originality and a subject which will only benefit from a fresh approach, seeking what has been, as yet, unseen when photographing homeless people. Unless we want to keep this poetic quote solely abstract and "philosophical," talking about a real and specific subject seems important.</p>

[don_e]

<p>Art: "Deciding to capture 'homelessness' as a subject matter inevitably requires subject/s, that is, the 'homeless' (please correct me if I've missunderstood your distinction here Don)."</p>

<p>People don't generally associate homelessness with, say, the person who prepares their Happy Meal or who stocks the shelves at their market, but they might be. The homeless are often employed and they are not "bums" or "winos". In any wealthy community, the people working the scut jobs cannot afford to live there. Where do they live? Where are their homes? If there is no public transportation (and wealthy communities often do not want it), they live in cars, shacks, and tents outside those communities as close as they can get. Homeless people usually do not want to advertise their condition. They do not beg or panhandle. The homeless, sometimes families, drift between homelessness and a better condition, two, three, or more times. But once or twice having had one's life harshly broken, it becomes increasingly difficult to recover, and increasingly easy to drift down into total destitution and alcohol, drugs, prostitution, crime. It seems that the photos of The Homeless genre catch this final destitution (if it is that, looking scruffy and wearing an 'I'm homeless' sign, proves nothing about their condition) when the recognizable stock clerk or cashier is burned away, when the family is split apart and lost. Homelessness is unseen otherwise because it is not photographed. The photographer doesn't recognize the signs of it; they are subtle, but they are there. And the viewers are left with the impression that the homeless are those bums and winos (as they see it) in the photos and not the waitress they never tip well and bitch about.</p>

<p> </p>

[pnital]

<p>Art</p>

<p>I agree that we differ in our point of view, and it is acceptable. I still don't see how a photograph will help the homeless, only if you really work with them and document the situation, but than you don't post it in a photographic site.</p>

<p>Don,</p>

<p>Interesting differentiation of homeless and homelessness. It looks a very accurate explanation of human deteriorating situation.</p>

[Art X Photography]

<p>Yes Pnina, the key word is "document". To document is to create AWARENESS. Awareness may lead to questions, questions that need to be answered.<br>

Don, your differentiation of the homeless and homelessness is, as Pnina has pointed out, accurate. The terms "wino" and "bums" I use are quoted from you. I know full well, in Australia at least, who the homeless really are. But I also know those who have lost <strong>complete</strong> hope. Those who beg and, to use your term, "panhandle". I know for a fact they also don't wish to advertise their plight, it's their feeling of hopelessness that leads them to that stage. I take nothing away from the desperation of the homeless that walk the fine line between hope and hopelessness, but I certainly don't take away anything from those who have crossed that line into utter despair.<br>

I reiterate what I said earlier that if, at the very least, even the image of their "final destitution" is documented and creates some AWARENESS, then it has achieved something.</p>

[Art X Photography]

<p> <strong>As long as awareness is the photographer's inent</strong></p>

[Art X Photography]

<p>Pnina "I still don't see how a photograph will help the homeless, only if you really work with them and document the situation, but than you don't post it in a photographic site."<br>

So my question to you is why have you with your image of "street Carlsberg"?</p>

[kristina_kraft]

<p>Don, thanks.<br>

Right, C.S. Lewis, <em>The Seven Chronicles of Narnia</em> . But from which book is this quote: <em>The scent of an unseen flower</em> ?<br>

I know about the Chronicles. He lived in a war time and made such a great deed for the youngsters and kids in those times. Putting their attention to something magical, to the world of kings, heroes, fairies, dwarfs, Good and Evil...<br>

But I much prefer Tolkien, whose stories are much more complex and they are for older one. But Lewis created a childhood warmth where every kid can become a hero, a prince, a fighter against an evil. The adventure is inevitable, that's for sure. And I like it a lot too. Both authors have their own uniqueness. I enjoyed in their books a lot.</p>

 

[pnital]

<p>Art, I 'm sending you an email.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Tolkien and Lewis were fellow profs in England and members of the latter's evening intellectual circle at Oxford (a sign of those times, composed uniquely of men) that spanned a number of decades. The "Nibelungenlied" and other northern Europe ancient tales were apparently their inspiration (like that of Richard Wagner before).</p>

<p>I think it is interesting how the elite of academia wrote (although not uniquely) for children. Perhaps they were tired of communicating with the more narrrow-minded adults? Sort of like Faubert's disdain for "la bourgeoisie."</p>

[don_e]

<p>"The terms "wino" and "bums" I use are quoted from you."</p>

<p>Let's clarify this once for all. I use those terms to indicate the coarseness that results from desensitization from seeing photos of The Homeless as representing homelessness and the general absence of photos of homelessness of other kinds of people, people seemingly more like the viewer. It leads to the opinion that homelessness isn't a problem since it is just bums and winos.</p>

<p> </p>

[don_e]

<p>"I think it is interesting how the elite of academia wrote (although not uniquely) for children. Perhaps they were tired of communicating with the more narrrow-minded adults? Sort of like Faubert's disdain for "la bourgeoisie.""<br>

Lewis and Tolkein (and other Inklings whose work I am familiar with) had rich, imaginative childhoods. Lewis and his brother created, wrote and illustrated fairy tales when they were young. Even their religious sentiments seem to reflect that. Lewis' more academic work: The Allegory of Love and The Discarded Image are worth reading if one's interests run in those directions.<br>

There was a similar phenomenon among some science fiction writers in the 1990s, writng novels from the pov of a young girl. I think they had daughters just approaching puberty when that happened.</p>

 

[Art X Photography]

<p>Don, " I use those terms to indicate the coarseness that results from desensitization".<br>

Thank you Don, I see we are in agreement here</p>

[kristina_kraft]

<p>Arthur,<br>

I am not familiar with "<em>Nibelungenlied</em> ". But from what I've read, on Amazon, I founded interesting, and this story needs to be taken in a small doses. It is so complex. Regarding that the author is unknown, I can only presume that he was someone close to Siegfried, some knight...etc.<br>

Because the stroy seems to me so real, from what I've read. Like the author was a kind of witness. Well, human mind is so complicated, and human deeds and actions too.<br>

I just don't believe that someone would write from the pure imagination that kind of legend about the hero. <br>

I agree on that that Tolkien and Lewis were fed up with narrow-minded adults.</p>

<p><strong>Happy New Year to you all!</strong></p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Kristina, I remember the The Nibelungenlied as Norse or Germanic Medieval or pre-Medieval tales that were recorded over history and which portray characters and human challenges similar to those of Sigmund, Brunnhilde and Siegfried. There may have been more than one author. Like many such tales, there were probably real characters that inspired the author(s) and imagination and/or pagan beliefs no doubt added other aspects to the tales. When preparing myself to go to a week of Wagner's Ring music-drama (4 evenings, not recommended, unless you are a devoted Wagner fan, but still quite enlightening), I found a paperback copy of Nibelungenlied (this was about 20 years ago) which I think was a Penguin. Not sure how it interweaves with Tolkien and Lewis stories, as I admit that I have not read either of these two.</p>

[kristina_kraft]

<p>Arthur,<br>

I read that The Nibelungenlied is partly historical, partly mythical and partly a legend. And it was written through many decades by many storytellers. Tolkien and Lewis are totally different kind, having much more spiritual background. Reader can feel that he can become a part of the quest that characters experience (in the books). It's all about personal quest for the truth, meaning of life, belief. Romance and love are transformed and shown through spirituality, purity, faith. <br>

But in the Nibelungenlied, human love is transformed and dispersed through all emotions that one person can have about the other; our earthly emotions which are the drive to make complex actions, like revenge....etc.</p>

[inoneeye]

<ul>

<li>John Kelly once said - </li>

</ul>

<blockquote>

<p>I photograph because I hope. I hope to make some significant images. Hope is neither seen nor unseen...it's like hunger. Some say we die in hope, others say we die in disappointment.</p>

</blockquote>

<ul>

<li>the remark stuck like a repetitive melody - allow me to indulge in my reflections</li>

</ul>

<p>As a child I was always fascinated by and drawn to find out what was around the next corner or over the next hill. I had to explore the unknown. Every dark corner held my imagination. Every time i came across an alley or barn or abandoned house or a field i could not see beyond, it would haunt me until i explored it.<br /> As an adult i was/am no different. I would move to a new city or location and i would spent endless hours exploring until all became familiar. And unfortunately the location became boring. I now feel this way about the city i now reside in.. I still find myself taking the long way home in an attempt to discover something new. Not just a fresh view but something i have never seen before. I know, this is more about my limitations than the limitations of subject and content. maybe....<br /> It's like a drug. I am an addict for the search as much as the find. The search for an elusive thing. This addiction is most apparent in my motivation for creating art. That motivation is part of my own definition of 'an artist'. I am driven to discover and present the unseen. Many times i have felt myself on the verge of a real discovery. Inevitably my discovery soon shows up in some new 'cutting edge' TV commercial. I have made countless personal real discoveries, but the flower unseen by others has eluded me. At times I have given up to pick up the search again later. I just cannot get great satisfaction without going around the next corner.<br>

Long ago, I remember reading a fellow photographers reflection on his friend Ansel Adams. He commented on Ansels elation over discoveries that were old news to others. It was if he had been the first to see an unseen flower. Yet it was really more that it was news from a country he had not visited. But for Ansel it was earth changing and it was his discovery. <br /> I do not shoot many landscapes. But even if i did i would never be satisfied to rise to the top of the field as Ansel did. (the money would soften the disappointment). I would not be satisfied to rise to the top of any genre... Unless I felt I was presenting a flower unseen. That is what motivates me and turns me on and perhaps, as friends have pointed out, part of what keeps me down. Maybe it is a character thing.<br /> <br /><br /></p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Kristina, in referring to the works of Tolkien (and possibly Lewis) you mentioned "It's all about personal quest for the truth, meaning of life, belief. Romance and love are transformed and shown through spirituality, purity, faith." As you say, the nuibelungenlied recorded.</p>

<p>Wagner attempts to mirror a similar quest in his "Ring das Nibelungen", in taking the ancient Nibelungenlied tale and transforming it (extending it may be a better phrase) into a more complex moral tale of (pagan) Gods and mortals and the moral and immoral actions of both. Quite apart from the music, it is a fascinating story and world outlook (although I do not share all his views on society of his time in the latter half of the 19th century).</p>