Long Term M8 Owners: Would You Now Recommend Getting an M8?

[Alex_Es]

<p>I have owned an M8 for nearly two years and have a few thoughts on the subject. But I would like to hear from others first.</p>

[ray .]

<p>A couple months isn't long term, but looks like I'm in. There have been flashes of brilliance file-wise (particularly with pre-asph Summicron), and I've used Leicas for years, so there's little doubt I'll stick with it. Still fine tuning so as to consistently get the most out of the camera.</p>

[Alex_Es]

<p>Thanks for writing, Ray. I hoped you would. I should have phrased the question differently. I know about the flashes of brilliance. The M8 and the Summicron 35/2 Asph. (uncoded) have given me some of the best shots I've ever taken. Lately I've been using my Nokton 35/1.4 (self-coded) with the M8. The coding doesn't come off on the Nokton but does on the Summicron.</p>

<p>I think those flashes of brilliance are also going to keep me the M8. There is something magical about it. I remember Ray was a passionate Canon 5D user. All the more interesting to see him as a passionate M8 "convert."</p>

<p>I have no regrets about getting the M8. But I am still holding back on my advice to the would-be M8 owner. I want to hear what other M8 owners--short term or long term--have to say.</p>

[ray .]

<p>Alex, I still have the 5D- good in different ways. I've become a multiple camera guy, but don't think I'll ever compete with you. ;)<br>

I'd like to hear what others have to say on your question too.</p>

[HarryBaker]

<p>Well, I've had mine for a couple of years now. If you want a digital rangefinder you now have little choice unless you can get hold of a reasonable Epson (which I rather regret not having bought). I use mine quite a lot but mainly for B&W. I think the M8 can't produce JPG files. The camera's colour control is not good so you have no choice but to work in RAW files which most would do anyway. But I find myself using my 5D more and more. It is what I reach for when I'm just going for a walk. Even using JPG files it's perfectly good. The problem with the M8 in my view is that it was too buggy when it first came out though some bugs have been fixed. It was not totally reliable (I have used Canon SLRs and DSLRs for years and never had to get one repaired or had one fail). With firmware updates my M8 is now functioning well and I like using it because I like the feel of Leicas. It is really quite similar to using my M6 except for the shutter noise.<br>

But we have to recognise that the Image Quality competition from the Canon 5DII and the Nikon D700 is very strong. Factor in the prices and it's beginning to look like a no-brainer. Faced with the choice now of buying a 5DII, Nikon D700 or M8 I doubt it would be the M8. Now, I think the only compelling argument for the M8 is that it is an RF and if that's what you want, get it. But if you don't mind the bulk of a DSLR then save the money, buy an adaptor and use Leica glass on a 5DII or D700.</p>

[todd_angood]

<p>I have owned an M8 for a little over a year now. The camera has never exhibited any of the "bugs" or glitches read about in this forum. I enjoy it immensely.<br>

I remember an M4 my dad had when I was a kid. His mother purchased it at the factory for him while participating in Leica's photography school and that camera always intrigued me. I became hooked on rangefinder camera use after purchasing an M6ttl Titanium a couple of years ago. So the M8 for me, is just the digital option for rangefinder use when I feel so inclined. I still use a DSLR (D300) for shots as well. Mostly nature and macro stuff. I guess depending on the mood I'm in and what I feel like shooting ,determines the camera grabbed. <br>

For me, picture taking is purely a hobby, albeit one that I have made an expensive one :). Would I recommend the M8? As a hobbyist and one who appreciates the look and feel of Leica, as well as the fact that I have been pleased with picture quality......Absolutely I would reccomend it.</p>

[tom_higgins3]

<p>If Leicas are your thing, then definitely, its just like an m7 (with a slightly cropped vf), and the files it produces are better than the 5d i traded for it. And its a lot smaller, and the lenses are better, - think of an eos 1n vs an m6/7. They are too expensive tho, the only thing I'd change is that I'd buy used. M8s are totally unique in terms of other digital cameras, solid, quirky and brilliant, kinda like film leicas were back in the day. Mine's never let me down (fingers crossed), and I've shot with it for work exclusively for the last 6 mths, the black and whites are stunning out of it. I have a Hasselblad 903swc i picked up for a (relative) song before i left the states, i'd never sell that either, its ticks the "too expensive/quirky/brilliant" boxes as well. Along with my sx-70 polaroid and nikonos mk3, they're coming into the ground with me. Oh, and the lens coding setup on the m8 is the single dumbest design i've ever seen on any camera- black and white dots on lenses and a sensor on the lens mount to accomplish what should be a menu option, but isn't. nuts.</p>

[ron_breeze2]

<p>I've owned my M8 for almost two years now, have had two of the upgrades done (shutter and screens) and do not regret the purchase one bit. I also have not experienced any of the quirks I've read about and the cameras capabilities, particularly in infra red, have allowed me to experiment and develop a new personal style of photography. If I could afford it I would purchase another and although I sell photographic equipment as a living, and have opportunities to use all the other brands of equipment I'm not tempted by any of them to make an investment in their systems. I've just made an investment in the 75 mm F2 Summicron and am looking forward to putting it to good use while traveling. The M8 is a camera that I have no problems recommending. </p>

[david k.]

<p>The M8 produces RAW files that are hard to beat in my experience. Now that the 5DII and D700 are available, they may produce better files.....I have not shot with either camera, however handling a 5D or D700 with the associated lenses is a much different experience to the compact M8 package.<br>

The M8 combination of compact size, great glass, and exceptional results is highly recommended.</p>

[george_shihanian]

<p>You're asking Leica owners who've spent half a fortune on a camera and then another half on upgrades to try and get things right, and still have to deal with "quirks" to admit they made a mistake? You got a better chance of photographing Santa Claus sipping on the milk and eating the cookies you leave out on Dec 24......</p>

[jeff_hughes1]

<p>Absolutely. After two years with mine, I still consider my M8 to be the finest camera I have ever owned. My film Leicas (M6 and M7) are a joy to use. And my D3 is extraordinary for all sorts of reasons - but mostly because of its high-iso performance.</p>

<p>But my M8 is the one that hits most of the notes, most of the time. It's the one that goes with me almost everywhere.</p>

<p>Highly recommended.</p>

[stuart_richardson]

<p>I bought my M8 around the time it came out, but I would probably not recommend it to new purchasers. This is not because I am dissatisfied with it -- I think it takes beautiful images up to ISO 640, assuming you use an IR filter and shoot RAW and its size and lenses are superb.<br>

The reason I would not recommend it now is because it is at the end of its life cycle, represents technology that is several years old, yet it still commands a huge price premium over other cameras. I think a better decision at this point would be a 5DMkII or D700. You can use Leica R lenses on the 5D or Zeiss lenses on the Nikon...or just use the excellent lenses available for Canon and Nikon. I would recommend that one wait until the M9 is available, which is probably in 1-3 years, if they make it all. While the M8.2 has some nice features, they should have been there from day one. <br>

I think Leica digital products like the M8 and DMR are best bought the moment they come out -- that is when they are at peak utility -- when they are released they are not quite as behind as they inevitably become, and their price is usually cheaper. (The M8 started at 4700 or so, it is now 6000, the DMR started at 4500 and ended at 6000). As time goes on, you are paying more for a camera that is more and more out of date. This is the opposite of almost every other camera maker. </p>

[paul hart]

<p>I bought the M8 at launch, so lived through the bugs and 2 replacement cameras. That may have coloured my view of it, but why shouldn't it?<br>

I sold it a few months ago and now just have a lovely M3. My D700 wipes the floor with the M8 in low light situations, where M cameras are supposed to excel.<br>

Digital products are ephemeral. Leica M cameras are built to last. That's the conflict that led me to sell lest prices of used M8s dropped through the floor like all other used digital stuff.</p>

[blakley]

<p>I've had the M8 for about two years now, and my camera <em>has</em> had some of the glitches which have been so widely reported. I still use it as my primary camera. The size, the rangefinder way of working, the excellence of the lenses, the high image quality, and especially the lack of AA filter are all factors for me. The fact that the sensor is bigger than APS-C is, for me, a plus, because I like very shallow depth of field in my portraits, and higher crop factors increase DOF given the same lens (needless to say, FF would be even better).</p>

<p>George writes "<em>You're asking Leica owners who've spent half a fortune on a camera and then another half on upgrades to try and get things right, and still have to deal with "quirks" to admit they made a mistake?</em> "</p>

<p>Apparently George thinks you'd get more informative answers from people who haven't used the camera - for example those who chose to spend a quarter of a fortune on a high-end Nikon or Canon instead of the M8. Interesting theory, but here's another way to approach the problem: ask the viewers of the photos instead of the folks behind the eyepiece. I've gotten LOTS of comments from people to whom I give or show pictures taken with the M8; the usual comment is "wow, that's fantastic!" Sometimes I get "hey, that's much better than I'm getting from my Rebel/D70 etc...".</p>

<p>It's a good point that the D300, D3, and 5DmkII have great image quality. It's true that their files are better than those from the M8 above ISO 640. At our local Strobist get-togethers I often shoot the same subjects alongside people who use those cameras, and we all get great results. There's very little to choose between the M8's results and those of the high end of the competition. These facts aren't a big deal for me; I'm getting the results I want out of the M8 for now, and I'll continue to use it.</p>

<p>I will say that if you want to be dissatisfied with one aspect of the M8's current performance (assuming you're at the latest firmware level & are using filters), you should take a look at the blue channel in low-light shots. The M8 has a weak blue channel, and it gets really blotchy under low tungsten light - even at ISO 640. This is tough to correct for in post-processing without going to B&W. If the successor to the M8 fixes this problem it will be of more use to me than reducing noise at higher ISOs.</p>

[ray .]

<p>I can see it to some extent, but I'm not quite sure why people keep using as the only benchmark comparison to dslr's. Like comparing a Cadillac to a Corvette... or something like that.<br>

My recommendation is if you like Leicas and want to shoot digital, you should like the M8. A good option if expense is an issue is to get a good used one and go from there.</p>

[narayan_nayar]

<p>I agree with Ray--the comparisons to DSLRs are ridiculous. I don't think it's like comparing a Cadillac to a Corvette, though, I think it's like comparing a bicycle to a car. <br>

<br /><br>

I've said it many times before--I like the way rangefinders affect my approach to photography. I've had very good DSLRs, and I felt more and more that I was just holding up a picture taking machine. Rangefinders make me feel like I'm taking pictures again, or at least that I'm relevant to the process. I realize that's a privilege; I do not make my living with a camera anymore. For me (and realize, I really do mean for me), rangefinder photography still feels like a craft. DSLR photography feels like production. They both have their place. There's something to be said for knowing the limitations of your tools and working within those.<br>

<br /><br>

I sold off all my DSLR stuff within 6 months of getting the M8 (the first batch--Nov 2006), though I was fully prepared to keep the DSLR gear. If engraving wouldn't have added time to my M8 upgrade, I probably would have engraved it. I don't foresee selling this camera, or to put it another way, by the time I want to sell this camera, it probably wouldn't be worth much. And that's fine with me. I don't delude myself into thinking this is my last camera. But I do think I've rediscovered my preferred way of taking pictures.</p>

<br />

[zoran_arsenijevic]

<p>I love my M8 and would recommend one.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"remember Ray was a passionate Canon 5D user. All the more interesting to see him as a passionate M8 "convert."</p>

<p>Very witty , Alex. I just felt Ray was all sort of at sea with his big ugly cam;)<br>

I forgive you for having to look at those err creative (hey, forget magenta...Alex worked the colour spectrum) multi tinted M8 stuff...different is interesting.<br>

;))</p>

<div></div>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Mean machine in it's altogether.....</p><div></div>

[neilambrose]

<p>No, I don't think so.</p>

<p>I've enjoyed my M8 which I bought shortly after it came out, so have been with it from nearly the beginning. I've shot many thousands of frames, some of which have been very good. It's a camera that I've used daily and that has seldom left my side during the last two years, and I've done a lot of commercial work with it as well as personal stuff, and it's paid for itself several times over.</p>

<p>But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone now because it will shortly be obsolete. In another year cameras that shoot 24 Mpix or higher will be pretty ordinary and the tool of choice for the interested amateur. The days when I could recommend a 10 Mpix camera for $6000 are long gone, even for a RF enthusiast. In fact, for someone who loves rangefinders, I'd sooner recommend the MP which I think is a far superior camera to the M8 in every way.<br /> The biggest problems with the M8 are noise at higher ISOs and the need to use IR filters, and unfortunately they sit poorly with the M8's current price. I've had pictures ruined by internal reflections from the filter, and pictures that were unusable (commercially) due to noise in low light.</p>

<p>Unless there's a price adjustment I see no compelling reason to buy an M8 now. For someone who wants the Leicabadge and RF experience there are better choices - M7 or MP. For someone who wants excellent image quality and digital workflow there are better choices - any and all of the major brands have leading models with tangible improvements in metering and sensor technology over the M8, and they're all far better value for money.</p>

<p>One other factor to consider in terms of making a recommendation to someone is the cost of lenses. With a couple of exceptions, most contemporary Nikon or Canon lenses are probably 90-95% as good as the Leica equivalent, and they're all around 20-40% of the price. That alone would push my recommendation in the DSLR direction....</p>

<p>I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel differently and who'd recommend the M8 in a heartbeat. That's fine - I don't disagree with anyone's choices. But as far as my thinking goes there are now more reasons to discount it than recommend it. It doesn't stop me using mine of course, but that's because I already own it. I wouldn't buy a new one now.</p>

[doug herr]

<p>"most contemporary Nikon or Canon lenses are probably 90-95% as good as the Leica equivalent"<br>

<br /><br>

Each time I've tried the 90-95% as good lenses I've found that I miss the remaining 5-10%</p>

[carol_christopher]

<p>I would like to inqure as to how many dollars, yen, etc constitute a "fortune." I see this term used quite frequently in regard to the M8 and Leica in general, and I completely fail to understand its meaning as it is being used. A new M8.2 today is going for about $4500 US. See <a href="http://www.kurlandphoto.com">www.kurlandphoto.com</a> for one. A D700 body here is about $3100 CDN. My Cadillac cost $56,000 CDN. The Corvette I had before cost $52,000 CDN. We spend roughly $5000 per year at restaurants. My university education was around $50,000. An M8 hardly seems a big stretch considering prices of other consumer items today.<br>

If you think from those numbers we are rich, we live on a pension of $2000 per month each, certainly adequete but hardly "a fortune." What we don't do is travel much, or spend money on anything that can't eventually be resold on eBay. So if someone could tell me how many whatevers in a fortune, I would be very interested.<br>

I am thinking of buying an M8.2 soon, but I am afraid it will stop me from using my M7, R8 or even iiic. Yikes!</p>

[s._d.1]

<p>Interesting how one needs to justify having purchased something that was already bought long ago. Who cares what others think as long as it suits your need?</p>

[george_shihanian]

<p>Carol, I find it difficult to believe you're buying Leicas and Corvettes on just pension income. You either have zero housing costs or you had a sum saved before retirement that you're using, or you bought the Vette before retiring. Also, more than 10% of one's income spent just on restaurants isn't a 'normal' amount for anyone that I know.</p>

[george_shihanian]

<p>Bob writes- <em>Apparently George thinks you'd get more informative answers from people who haven't used the camera...</em><br>

Apparently Bob is delusional. George never said that. George believes from many years of Leica ownership and listening to Leica owners on these forums that they'd rather have root canal without anesthesia than admit that any other camera could do what their beloved Leica does, or that Leica went into production with a camera that had- flaws! <strong><em>OH MY! </em></strong></p>