lawyer groom wants his deposit back even though he is canceling

[bms]

<p>Kacy:<br>

First - I think you do really nice work, so it's their loss.<br>

Second, I am not a lawyer nor a wedding photographer, but it seems to me that<br>

a) you have a solid contract<br>

b) you offer a great deal<br>

c) the bride is your client, not him, and he is trying to intimidate you with his title, so why don't your write the bride a letter and last but not least<br>

d) they seem to be quite cheap, given that they want $200 which is obviously yours to keep, and their wedding probably costs much much more......so I doubt you'd end up in court, unless he is seriously undercharging for his services<br>

Just my 2 cents</p>

 

[Member69643]

<p>I do something different, but I'm a small-time, part-time wedding photographer. My deposit is refundable unless I have turned down another wedding request because I already have theirs booked on that date. Seems to work fine. I also notify them when the deposit becomes nonrefundable... i.e., an email from someone asking if I am available that date.</p>

[hassy501]

<p>Tyler, after 19 years of running a studio, "been there done that" many times a year. As I said, no lawyer is going to waste his time in "small claims court" over a $200.00 dispute.<br>

Tyler, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling".<br /></p>

[hassy501]

<p>Tyler, read Bob Bollinger's post. Now, turn the light on. Ding ding.</p>

[andrew_sacco]

<p>No refund dude. He's wrong. All correspondence in certified mail, don't lose anything, don't talk to him. Move on, he's wrong. I've been down this path. I think Tyler is way wrong on this and blows this out of proportion.</p>

[shambrick007]

<p>hey may be a lawer, but he's a cheap mofo....</p>

[michaelkh]

<p>John, George, Bob,<br>

you really can't assume this guy won't go to court over $200 even if he's in the wrong. Read <a href="http://www.snopes.com/embarrass/email/ketchup.asp">this</a> and then say $200 is too small.<br>

Not that I think this means Kacy should refund: Personally I'd reply firmly and say "As the professional photographer in this disagreement, I believe three weeks is extremely short notice to expect me to rebook a January wedding. In the unlikely event that this should happen I will consider refunding the deposit despite the terms of the signed contract."<br>

If he's going to go to court, he's going to go to court. But writing a letter and dropping in a casual reference that he works at a law firm shouldn't earn him the money; that's a lazy threat even for a lawyer.</p>

[rustys pics]

<p>I think the very first reply you got to this question is the most sensible. Not only does it stand firm on your original and <em>binding contract,</em> it shows you are willing to negotiate with him to make up some of deposit. Any judge would look at that and find in your favor. Small claims is exactly that, not criminal court. You don't even need a lawyer. THe worst which could happen is the judge orders a lien against your business if you ever sell it or liquidate and you pay this schmuck 2 bills sometime in the future. Feh! </p>

[a wolf]

<p>David S. reply is a nice high ground if not mid. ground ....... i think it would be cool to have a couple if not more different looks...... at least the client would get something .......<br>

#2 the lawer should know better .......wedding dates dont come on wheels (man! is he starting off on the wrong foot!!!)</p>

[tim_tuttle]

<p>This guy sounds more like a clerk at a law office than a lawyer. First, the contract is solid. Second, if he's such a great lawyer, why is he trying to stiff you for a couple hundred - like someone else said, he should be able to make that up in a one-hour meeting with a client.</p>

[mikal_grass]

<p>As an attorney (I handle family cases, especially those involving newborn adoptions) I rarely if ever take attorneys as clients. I also have non-refundable clauses in my adoption contracts, and all prospective adoptive parents must be represented by their own attorney, as an added measure of protection for me, before I will even accept adoptive parents as clients.<br>

Follow the advice of the other photo.netters who tell you to keep everything in writing. The attorney is being a bully, and no judge would rule against you.</p>

<p> </p>

[charleseagan]

<p>I don't think the lawer will bother with trying to pursue $200 when his time is worth many times more. I would just let him know that the time is not sufficient to find another client and you are keeping the deposit as outlined by your contract. </p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>While I doubt that any lawyer who is also a reasonable, decent person would take anyone to court over something like this....there are the schmucks in the world who would. One such schmuck filed suit for 67 million dollars over a time delay in getting back his pants. The pants were fine but they weren't ready in the expected time line: <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSN2528824020070625?pageNumber=1">http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSN2528824020070625?pageNumber=1</a><br>

The case was eventually ruled in favor of the cleaner shop owners but not till after it cost them their business and over $100,000 in legal bills.</p>

<p>In this case, we don't know if this guy is a Bozo or a bully.....yet. Might be that he actually thinks you could fill the date with someone else. At this point he's only asked for a refund....asking costs nothing. Initially, declining his request would also likely cost nothing. Good luck.</p>

[Stock-Photos]

<p>The first paragraph of David Schilling's responce was the best response so far, IMO.</p>

[michael s.]

<p>He's <strong>asking</strong> for a refund. Not suing, not demanding, not threatening, not bullying -- just asking.</p>

<p>My suggested draft response follows:</p>

<p><< Dear Mr. X:</p>

<p>I've received your [date] letter, in which you explain that you have hired a different photographer for your [date] wedding and no longer want me to photograph for you on that date.</p>

<p>In accordance with our signed contract, the $200 deposit was non-refundable. And there is a reason for that. At this time -- only [number of days] before the wedding -- it is extremely unlikely that I'll be able to schedule an alternate booking for the date and time that our contract expressly reserved for you.</p>

<p>While I'm disappointed that I won't have the opportunity to photograph your wedding, I wish you and [bride's name] the best on this memorable occasion.</p>

<p>Sincerely,</p>

<p>/s/ zzzz</p>

<p>cc: Ms. [bride to be] (w/ copy of groom's letter attached)</p>

<p>......</p>

<p> </p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

<p>"Personally I'd reply firmly and say "As the professional photographer in this disagreement, I believe three weeks is extremely short notice to expect me to rebook a January wedding. In the unlikely event that this should happen I will consider refunding the deposit despite the terms of the signed contract.""</p>

<p>That would not be an appropriate response. Number one there is no disagreement. Number two whether Kacy is able to book another job or not for thesame time is irrelevent. The stuff about in "in the event of booking another wedding" opens up a line of attack ofor him : how aggressively did you seek another booking ,etc.</p>

<p>In your response, if you choose to respond (And I wouldn't) stick to the facts: the two parties (Kacy and the bride) signed a binding contract.</p>

 

[rj russell]

<p>BE FIRM! Tell him to bite it!</p>

[charleseagan]

<p>Your better off not getting this gig, imagine what waits for the other photographer. He's going to waste his time on the wedding, then will most likely be asked for a full refund after some receiving some minor complaint. At least you have limited your loss.</p>

[robert_edelman1]

<p>Kacy, Your contract seems quite clear. By the date of your post, it seems that he is only giving you 5 working days to get the check to him. I would send him a letter by certified mail declining his request. Be polite, say as little as possible and only what is necessary. Tell him that the contract clearly states that the deposit is not refundable, so you are sorry but that you will not return the deposit. If this guy is an attorney worth anything, he won't bother you any more about this. I don't know about Arizona, but in California, this would go to small claims, and you could represent yourself. If he took it to a regular court, the judge would probably be upset that this guy was wasting the court's time. I suspect that he is just fishing for the money and that he won't pursue this any further. As a lawyer, he probably makes $200 in 40 minutes. Good luck.</p>

[seriousgoose]

<p>This type of guy is used to bullying people, playing odds, talking people into thing to get more $$$/whatever for himself. I suspect that people like this are mildly sociopathic, and I treat them like dangerous animals: humane but extremely wary. Step one is learning to switch out of reason mode - this situation does not call for reasoning with this guy.</p>

<p>If you roll over for him instantly, he thinks that's great because he gets $200 for free. He might spend a few minutes here and there to send you letters outlining his scheme for extortion (not legally of course - do this or i'll sue... type implication) or pick up the phone and harass you, but at some point he's not going to venture more of his time on this relatively small payoff. </p>

<p>Please don't give him anything but a polite phone call/letter. Consider what you are doing to other photographers if you train this guy to get anything he demands from them. </p>

<p>In the 0.0001% chance that he does sue you, it's payday for you. He will end up paying your court costs and for your time that he wasted, which is the highest rate you can demonstrate that you actually make. If he makes any remarks about a possible suit, casually mention how much time you've spent on the matter so far - he'll recognize that language instantly and drop the bone.</p>

<p>Another thought: he may assume that people are intimidated by him being a lawyer. If you get that feeling, just say, "I talked to my guy and he says you've got nothing," and of course be ready with a smart answer for who's your guy.</p>

<p>Anyway, think it through, call him, and give him the ever-so-polite kiss-off. It gets easier every time.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Its a poker game.<br /> <br /> Its typical in retail sales.<br /> <br /> The same chap is probably a weekend warrior too; they "buy" a roofing nail gun at Home Depot; use it that weekend to build a shed's roof; then return it Monday and demand a full refund.<br>

<br /> The same dude "buys" a lens or camera at a local store; returns in on a Monday; then mailorders it and gets its cheaper; plus the local sales taxes are skirted.<br>

<br /> The same type of chap runs a garden hose to the house being built next door; and uses the other houses water to water his lawn.<br>

<br /> The same type of chap mailorders inkjet cartridges then wants a free exchange at my store; when they last bought the same cartridge model number 3 years ago.<br>

<br /> Their whole operation in life is to get others to do something for nothing; to get others to eat a sale; to get others to provide a free rental; to get others to give back a deposit.<br>

<br /> They eat, sleep, poop this stuff; its in their DNA; hard wired; its a poker game; scare tactics.<br /> Unless the lawyer is senile or mentally retarded he understood the contract.<br>

<br /> If you pay him 200 bucks he is ahead 200 bucks.<br>

<br /> He stands nothing to loose my asking for the wedding deposits 200 bucks back; or asking me to replace an inkjet cartridge I never even sold him; or asking Home Depot for his money back with nail gun.<br>

<br /> One gambit the slimy folks use in retail is use a credit card as a weapon; they WHINE to the card issuer when one doesnt give a refund; and one as a retailer usually looses; one has a charge back out of ones checking account; where credit card payments are sweeped.<br>

<br /> One has a retailer gets burned 3 ways; the slimey bozo's card has a higher fee to handle whining; one has to take back the used demo dung; has to eat the fees; a full refund.<br>

<br /> This behavior is hard wired in some customers DNA; its basically away to save money; by getting a business to eat sales; eat deposits; to give free rental on tools; to provide a free demo on that new camera they want to mailorder.<br /> Its a poker game.<br /> <br /> As BB said above; <em>You need to call this guy's bluff</em> <br /> <br /> Its probably in the chaps DNA to do business like this; he learned it from his dad.</p>

[larry_hunt]

<p>Anybody wonder why our society as a whole is in the toilet? One word........ LAWYERS!</p>

<p>Stand your ground and don't let this ambulance chasing piece of garbage bully you, you will only encourage him when it comes to the next photographer whom he will sue over the smallest detail. Besides, most likely when the judge gets around to reading the case and your supporting evidence the case will most likely be thrown out of court for lack of merit.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Your are probably better off NOT having this chap as a client; since this type of behavior is in their DNA; hardwired. Probably a blessing from God; they couple would dream up other things for you to do for free or extra images or sue over whatever!:)</p>

[michael s.]

<p>My goodness. So many psychoanalysts on one Forum. And so much name-calling. :-)</p>

<p>My draft response (see above) is designed to:</p>

<p>(i) match his letter in tone and substance;<br>

(ii) stand firm on the contract, without excessive posturing; and<br>

(iii) position the photographer in a reasonable spot should the lawyer ultimately decide to make a claim -- a claim which I agree would be without merit and a regrettable waste of time and resources for all</p>

[imagesbydemeglio]

<p>If in fact, it is a reasonable amount of lead time to cancel the contract, allowing you to fill that date with another session, go ahead and refund the money. Put yourself in your clients shoes. What would you expect? Perhaps, it would be better in future contracts to allow cancellation up to a certain date. <br>

If it's to late to the session then I agree and it may be difficult to fill the spot and then it is reasonable to keep the deposit. I would say go with the draft letter Michael S. composed. Keep it to the point and professional. Leave all emotion out. Most likely your client will understand and may be willing to forget it or make a compromise. I think most people would understand that.<br>

From the letter, it doesn't sound like they meant ill will. Most people will go with the suggestion of a family member or close friend because they trust that person had a good experience as opposed to trying someone unknown. By returning the money, you save face and out of possible guilt may get a referral for other work especially if you were understanding and willing to work with the bride.<br>

The fact that the groom is a lawyer is irrelevent.<br>

Take care and best of luck.<br>

Anthony</p>