help me understand - used market value of R-lenses vs new

[Dieter Schaefer]

I recently inherited some Leica equipment and since I am heavily invested in the Nikon system and digital

photography, I investigated the possibility to sell some of the equipment - I rather have someone use it then it

acquiring dust sitting in my closet.

 

While I understand the the camera bodies have dropped significantly in value - which manufacturer's film cameras

haven't - I have trouble understanding why the value of used lenses is so low compared to the very high prices

for a new lens. Very often, the only difference between the lenses I own and the current one is the addition of

the ROM contacts - which as I understand aren't used all that much on current cameras.

 

As an example, a new APO-Macro-Elmarit-R 100/2.8 (w ROM) costs almost $4500 while asking prices for used ones

(with or without ROM) hover around $1500-1700 - and even those don't sell well. Or the Summicron-R 2/35 - new at

almost $3000 - used the asking prices seem to hover around $800. Those asking prices seem to be in line with

what for example keh offers for like-new lenses.

 

Just curious...

[ronald_moravec1]

The cost of new Leica equipment has exploded in the past 3 years.

 

Used leica R is not in demand as there are no Leica R digital bodies to use them on. Therefore the price remains what it was three years ago.

 

You can imagine just how many new R lenses Leica is selling with depreciation being greater than that of a automobile wich was the previous worst casse.

 

The market may pick up if a new digital R is viable with older R lens.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Thanks Ronald.

 

I am - as likely many others - wondering whether there will ever be a digital Leica R body. The announcement of the S2 system seems to make this more than doubtful IMHO - but since I haven't followed news regarding Leica closely for many years now, maybe someone better informed can comment on this.

[Dieter Schaefer]

I also have looked around to see what digital bodies I could attach the R lenses to - apparently Canon, Pentax and Sigma are choices - but all are limited to stop-down metering and that just doesn't cut it for me.

[geoff_r1]

There was acknowledgment at Photokina that the R10 is coming, but no hints at when, as far as I know.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Thanks, just found a link to that effect - mentions also AF-R lenses. To me, that'll be the death spell for the manual focus R lenses. I have been using manual focus Nikon lenses when everybody else around me already switched to AF - but once I went digital, the manual focus lenses haven't seen much use at all.

[doug herr]

Leica's owner and the reflex product manager have both stated that the R10 is coming after the S2. The R10 is probably a year perhaps more away from market. Both Dr. Kaufmann and Ms. Harberts have stated that it will be AF with a full-frame sensor and compatible with existing R lenses. Leica's display at Photokina hinted that the R10 will be more R7 size than R8/R9 size. If the R10's sensor uses the same 6-micron technology as the S2's sensor this means it will be a 23+MP sensor.

<P>

Dr. Kaufmann and Ms. Harberts have mentioned that the S2's technology will trickle down to the R and M product lines. My interpretation of this is that the Maestro image processor in the S2 can also be used in future smaller cameras, and that an upgradeable sensor is also possible.

<P>

http://tv.mediaprovider.se/leica_s2_and_r10_1223561589701.html

[charlie_chan2]

The cupboard is almost bare for new R lenses. In the UK at least, I believe that Leica UK have got rid of all their R stock.

 

Charlie

[stuart_richardson]

My assumption (it is a total guess) is that they are trying to get as many of the R lenses sold as they can. This is

difficult, because as said before, they are extraordinarily expensive, there is no currently made digital R, and there are

plenty of lenses available on the used market. The solution to this is time -- though they announced the R10 (or at least

the intention to make one), I don't think we will see it for awhile. There will be the S2, which given Leica's past

experience, will probably be delivered months after the initially announced date. After that, there will probably be an M9

before the R10, if only because the M system is a much better seller and many M users have been clamoring for a full

frame digital M that solves the IR problem essentially since the M8 arrived. The R users that remain are gluttons for

punishment and will wait until the end of time, which is why I don't think we will see an R10 in people's hands for at least

2.5-3 years. The longer it takes, the more time they have to let the last few R lenses trickle out the door, paving the way for the new AF

versions. I also think it will take awhile because they need time for the S2 technology to trickle down to the R10. The R10 needs to be

fairly inexpensive for Leica in order to make it economical -- the R series have never been a big seller, so they can't afford to throw tons of

R&D at it...it needs to be essentially a mini-S2 -- that way it requires less up front R&D money. Anyway, that's just my GUESS. I have no

real information other than past experience and all the chatter

from Leica themselves.

[steve_mareno]

Boy, I wish someone would leave me some R glass! Dieter, heavily invested in Nikon or not, you owe it to yourself to buy a cheap R3 camera and shoot some of those puppies. You won't be shooting Nikon or digital long after that! The quality of the Leica R lenses just amazes me, and you can pick them up (as you are seeing) for a pittance compared to the M lenses. I have a R 50 Summicron that is the best lens I have ever used. Period. Incredible color saturation, fantastic for B&W, focuses very close. Just a great lens, and the only two other R lenses I have used, a 90 2.8 Elmarit and a 90 2.0 Summicron, were also incredible.

 

Heres the deal with why they are so cheap. You have to use them on a Leica R camera or use an adapter to use them on a Canon or something. Using them on a Canon or something works, but is cumbersome using stop down metering. Plus, the metering is screwed up 9 times out of 10. So it's a pain.

 

Using them on a Leica R camera can also be a pain. The earlier R's like the R3 through R6 are primitive beasts, and my R5 has a shutter that vibrates and clanks like you would not believe. But it takes great pics so I put up w/ it. The newer cameras like the R7 and on up are quite a bit bigger and much more money. The R9 is as big as some of my MF cameras. So you have to put up w/ great lenses that you have to use on not-so-great cameras. The R3 is a workhorse and very reliable and dirt cheap. When you think that you can buy one and a 50 Summicron for somewhere around $300, wow. I can only imagine what they cost new.

 

Also, the R system is SLR, and that's not nearly as sexy as the rangefinder cameras. Still, I say use the lenses and don't look back. You will be impressed.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Steve, I actually have three bodies - an R4, R5 and R-E. Strangely enough, I favor the R-E and am currently offering the other two for sale. I have used a R3 sometime in 1978/79 with a 2/35 and 2/90 for a weekend and remember that I was very impressed then - but of course could not afford such a system and ended up with a Nikon FM. When I shot with the R4/R5/R-E for the first time about 2 weeks ago, I thought I couldn't trust my ears - sure not what I expected a Leica to sound like - not too mention the vibration when the mirror returns back down.

 

The optical quality of the lenses is impressive indeed - but not enough to make me give up the Nikons and digital - the latter really rekindled my interest in photography. I do a lot of avian photography for which I don't have long enough Leica glass - and manual focus would drastically reduce my success rate. The Leicas will complement my F5 for the occasional shooting of slides and may re-awaken my interest in B&W. I was never a fan of color negative film - to troublesome to find a good lab to get decent prints.

 

50mm is a focal length I could never do much with - always either too long or too short.

 

Stuart, your guess may very well prove correct. The R10 will be AF - and I doubt that many people would want to stick to manual focus once they realize what AF has to offer. In addition, manual focusing with an AF camera has its own problems - a test I recently did revealed that it is usually better to rely on the focus confirmation indicator than on what one sees on the focusing screen - the image does no longer "pop" into focus on those AF-optimized screens.

[doug herr]

"<I>manual focusing with an AF camera has its own problems - a test I recently did revealed that it is usually better

to rely on the focus confirmation indicator than on what one sees on the focusing screen - the image does no

longer "pop" into focus on those AF-optimized screens.</I>"

<P>

This depends a lot on the particular camera model. Makers of many of the consumer-grade cameras achieve their

low price points by sacrificing the features only the more particular purchasers would notice, like mirror box accuracy

or viewfinder quality. One of the assumptions made in designing a camera is how often the target consumer will

want to use manual focus. The typical price-driven consumer isn't interested in manual focus so the manufacturer

won't put design or production resources into guaranteeing accurate manual focus for these models.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Douglas, my tests were performed on a D200 and a D300. Nonetheless, I agree with your assessment. For the D200/D300 - and for many other models, a Katz-Eye screen is available that significantly improves the manual focus accuracy. The fact that it does shows IMO that the accuracy is indeed there and that the AF screens are the main culprit. Optimized for f/5.6 max aperture lenses,they have a hard time coping with f2.8 lenses - and most certainly with even larger aperture ones.

[doug herr]

I haven't seen a D300's viewfinder, but IMHO the D200 viewfinder leaves much to be desired w.r.t. manual focus

capability. The prevalance of viewfinders like these are why so many people think AF is important. A quick look at a

Leicaflex SL or a Nikon F2 with E screen will show that <B>with correct diopter adjustment*</B>, manual focus isn't

difficult.

<P>

* depending on individual eyesight

[Dieter Schaefer]

The D200 viewfinder already has been a great improvement over the dinky hole of a finder on the D70. None of the Nikon DX viewfindes however gets anywhere close to the screens and finders in the manual-focus cameras. Probably the best one I have the pleasure to use is the one of the F3 (HP in my case but the original one is better for people without glasses) - but I never had the manual focus problems currently encountered with AF cameras with any of my many manual focus cameras. The only Nikon AF camera that gave me no trouble with manual focus has been the F4. I may add that in all cameras where it was possible, I exchanged the standard screen (K, split-field, micro prism ring, matte field) for either a B (all matte) or an E (which is a B with a grid).

[agnius_griskevicius]

<p>I have discovered R lenses couple years ago - friend of mine loaned me a 60mm macro and 19mm wide angle (ver.1). I used them on my Canon 5D with an adapter, in stop down mode. I found metering to be a little sporadic in a matrix mode, but focusing was quite usable for zone focusing. Image quality was much better in the the corners compared to Canon 20mm lens. Using 60mm macro was more of a tripod affair - seeing Depth of Field was quite difficult in a 5D finder. 60mm macro truly came alive when I started using Canon 1dsm3 with LiveView - using a camera became almost like a ground glass focusing experience with ground glass being replaced by an LCD.<br>

Manual focusing using a focusing screen has been a hit and miss with 80mm lens. I have tried using stock screen, but it was quite difficult to see the critical focus. I tried Ec-B split screen, but I don't find it too reliable. Now I am trying Ec-A microprism screen, but initial results don't look too promising - success rate is about 50%. I keep switching to LiveView to confirm critical focus.<br>

In the future I am looking forward to a bigger, higher resolution screen that is articulatable; focus assist would be nice on an LCD too. I am looking to a more "pro" looking video as well, and think that I will be able to achieve that with the Leica R lenses (I own 21-35mm, 60mm macro, 80mm summilux, still looking for a 180mm f2 or f2.8). My goal is to have similar "look" from my lens set - so when switching between them would not create color shifts. Life is so much fun!<br>

<a href="http://www.agniusdigital.com">http://www.agniusdigital.com</a><br>

<a href="http://leicadig.blogspot.com/">http://leicadig.blogspot.com/</a></p><div></div>