K20D or D90 ????????????

[erik_skipit]

Oh and no worries Bob.....

[b_bagley]

I think you are correct Erik..... A camera is for taking pictures. I think I will post the same question on the Nikon

board. Will be interesting to see their opinions.

[thebs]

First off, if you're going to go Nikon, then look at the D300. The D90 isn't much in comparison to either the K20D or D300 in my view. An older D200 or sub-$600 D80 is an option. But with the K20D dropping in price, it's becoming a "no brainer" in my view. Either opt for the D300 or you'll find quite the competitor in the K20D.

 

Secondly, as far as lenses, ask Nikon users about their Tokina lenses. Tokina and Pentax optics are the same. Pentax then adds their SMC, weather sealing (DA*), better build quality and you get in-body SR "for free." The pricing and APS-C size options of Pentax-Tokina optics kept me Pentax, instead of going D300 myself.

 

It's nice to know Pentax-Samsung is not going full-frame either. Some might look at me weird for making that statement, but it's about the commitment to reduced size lenses and future body options for us amateurs who don't want to be blowing $5-10K+.

 

I mean, how many people who are not doing this for a living spend that kind of money? I've yet to find a Canikon fanboy who doesn't spend that kind of money see the argument of full frame stick on me, let alone they typically have a D40/D60 with maybe a 18-200 or a two slower lens set.

[michael_kuhne]

Yes, there are some very fine bargains around now. I like the more compact models for my frequent ambulatory needs. I often like to use a small lens and shove the camera into a sturdy belt pack. But the larger models are fine too for their added features, and for using bigger lenses when you are just going from car to shooting site and back. Next year will likely find some new larger models coming out. Some people like to start out with a compact model at low expense that will serve well later as a 2nd backup and for lighter packing when needed.

 

You can successfully shoot sports with Pentax equipment. I have done so, and Justin has done quite a lot. However, he has gotten into Nikon as a second line mainly for that application. Depends a great deal on which sports and the lighting conditions, as some are nearly always outdoor daylight and have less pressiing equipment requirements. I have shot some soccer, and all games were thus. No problem using ordinary lenses. Same with flash indoors. I have shot lots of wrestling competition. But with indoor or night conditions, without flash, a fast f/2.8 zoom lens is often a must to get decent shutter speed to stop fast action, even using ISO 1600. That was the case when shooting roller hockey as I did, or ice hockey. More choices among such zooms for Nikon, less choices for Pentax. But for the Nikon brand of such, the cost is very high, especially if having VR.

[b_bagley]

My decision is really still up in the air. One minute I am sure I'll give the Pentax a try and the next I'll lean towards the Nikon. The one thing that I can gather is there is no clear cut leader as BOTH are great choices. Too bad I can't get both.

[ken_yee]

As you've probably found out by now, pretty much all the ones you're looking at will take *great* pictures. If you can afford the 5DMKII as you implied, I'd also consider the D700...both are great for low-light usage. The strengths of the Nikon/Canon lines are in the long $3K zooms for sports and their AF speeds when shooting sports.

 

You didn't say what kind of people and sports? While all cameras can do well now, some will have a higher percentage of keepers, depending on the situation...

[b_bagley]

Ken I have been out of touch with photography since the mid 80's. I enjoyed taking portraits of interesting people on the street and some landscapes which any of these ( and probably even a few less expensive models ) would do just fine. I always wanted to try my hand at some sports photography and some wildlife shots but have had little experience with these fields so I am ignorant of the demands of such shoots ( I do realize AF speed and high ISO performance are required but that is about it).

 

Dont know much about the Canon my friend was referring to.... I was under the impression that it was "soon to be released ". He said it had better video ( 1080 ) and a full frame sensor. Thats about all I remember. Dont know if its more than I want to spend or not.

[ken_yee]

Your friend is referring to the Canon 5D mkII. It's over $3K for the body alone, so I guess your friend wasn't listening to your requirements ;-)

 

For street photography and landscapes, the K20D and D90 will do fine. For sports photography and wildlife, if you're seriously into it, be prepared to haul 10# $3-6K lenses around if you're serious about it :-)

But you're semi-serious, you'll probably end up w/ a 70-200/2.8 lens which is available on all systems. The Nikon and Canon variants focus faster than the 3rd party ones available on the Pentax system (Pentax no longer makes the 80-200/2.8). On Nikon/Canon, you can also get a 300/2.8 ($4K). On Nikon you can get a nice 200-400/4 ($5K). If you're more serious, a 500/4 ($6K) or 600/4 ($10K) would work best for birding.

That's probably the main constraint you'll hit w/ the K20D...you can't get a 300/2.8 or those nice /4 zooms. You can only get these longer zooms for Pentax on the used market.

 

You should probably just approach this as I did and list your budget and requirements and see what fits. Then add on what you plan to use it for and see how far you can stretch and if there are any available. The K10D was my first dslr since the film SLR days way back in the 80's as well and I've been pretty happy with it...it has all the cool features (multi-exposure, lots of metering modes, etc.) that were way out of my budget in the 80s. IMHO, either will work fine. You haven't said you shoot in drizzle/dust for landscapes like I sometimes do (the Pentax weathersealing helps) or you shoot a lot of fast moving sports (Canon's strength a few years ago, but Nikon has caught up) or a lot of flash photography (Nikon has a better flash system).

[mountainvisions]

Ken,

 

Pentax forte has always been f/4 zooms...and my guess is optically they are better than the Canikon castoffs since the f/4s with Pentax aren't afterthoughts but the main lens lineup, with the 2.8s being the "other" lenses.

 

my 28-70 f/4 is an amazing lens...and the Pentax 12-24 f/4 is a great lens too. There are of course others like the 60-250 f/4 and the 300mm f/4 (all currently produced sans the 28-70 f/4 that has not been replaced by the 17-70 f/4).

 

I can't disagree with anything else though. Definitely if anyone envisions high end low light pro sports work, buy a Canikon system. However, when you consider the $10,000-15,000+ in lenses you are going to buy, taking a chance on Pentax isn't going to kill you for $800 for a K20D, and another $1500 for a few DA limiteds, and maybe a fast zoom! With that setup you've got everything you need for street and landscape shooting for about $2000 total, and high end quality to boot!!!

[b_bagley]

All that makes sense ....... Unless I get alot more serious, I dont foresee spending $3000.00 on just a body.

 

I did go by the local camera shop ( this is where I have kinds renewed my interest as I was making a sales call on the owner ) and held the K20D and the D90. I really liked the Pentax "feel" if there is such a thing. It kinda just felt better in my hands. I will go by again and hold both ( I probably wont buy from him as he hasnt done business with me ). Funny thing was I knew more about the Pentax than the young college student with two years of photography at the local university under his belt. THATS SCARY. You Pentaxians have taught me well. Although I really thought I would end up with a Nikon, the K20D just keeps going through my mind.

[b_bagley]

Justin and Ken,,,,

 

Ok say I go with the K20D. Which lens(es) should I buy and in what order? I would rather have the 1 or 2 great

lenses that a kit lens that eventually is never used.

 

Also I read somewhere about some live search deal that would save you 25% on your camera if you used it to find

you merchandise at Amazon or ebay. Anyone know about that?

[michael_kuhne]

Well, for such a cheap price, don't miss out on the little second version 18-55mm kit lens II. So darn lightweight, handy for so many uses, and convenient to carry. Made head and shoulders better than Canon or Nikon versions, yet costs far less than say the Nikon having VR. I have not seen Live Search save 25%, but it can save a few bucks. I got back nearly $50 on my K200D kit, which also included the excellent DA*50-135mm f/2.8 and the battery grip. The K200D is actually more in line of competition with the D80/90 as a compact model. The K20D more with the D300. The D300 has some special features that are nice, and is also known for its cleaner, low-noise performance at ISO 3200, but again with some loss of detail. I believe a better result can be had from the K20D at ISO 3200 by using software like Noise Ninja post process. The Pentax cameras have their own special features as well, such as the very useful Hyper System of fast, efficient operation.

 

From there, you can sort of figure out your lens needs as you determine use more specifically. Especially the sports. The rest, IMO, is more favorable for Pentax. Sigma does also offer a 300mm f/2.8 for Pentax at $3,000, according to an ad in Pop Photo from B&H. If you'd want or need such a big, heavy beast!

 

Many of us really like a compact body with the exclusive ultra-compact, superb quality Limited lens series (that's VERY Pentaxian) for easy going about, and covering many uses. But those are extemely nice on a larger size body too.

 

Here's one of many wrestling shots I have handy, taken using Fuji Superia ISO 800 print film with flash on my Pentax PZ-1p. I recommend the Pentax AF 540 FGZ flash unit. No problems at all shooting with my nice Pentax FA 28-105mm f/3.2-4.5 zoom lens.<div></div>

[mountainvisions]

Bob,

 

Some people like the kit lens as either a throw in or a backup, or a beater lens. For the slight extra cost it's not a bad deal, and the reviews of it have been decent in comparison to the other brands kits.

 

Personally, I don't bother with the kit lenses myself. IMO, if you have the option to perhaps get a discount on a package deal better to go with something like the 16-45 f/4, or 16-50 2.8 or 17-70 f/4, (although I have seen nothing pro or con about this new lens but expect it to be on par with the 16-45 f/4).

 

But really it comes down to what you shoot, and what you are comfortable with. My favorite lens for the digital series is the 21mm DA Limited. A reasonable price, excellent characteristics, almost a 2.8 in a pancake design. It's pretty much always with me, or on my camera. After that my next favorite was the FA 35mm but I found that I didn't like the 52mm perspective as much on digital as I liked the 35mm on a film camera.

 

But if you're a 50mm prime guy (from your film days), I highly recommend the 35mm f/2 FA (there is also a 35mm f/2.8 DA macro and it's really nice, but I liked the qualities of the 35mm FA more).

 

Beyond that the 50-135mm DA* is absolutely a great lens. You will find very few complaints about it and when attached to the K20D you have a fully weather sealed camera. However, although it's significantly smaller than a 70-200 2.8 for a film camera, it's sitll not a "walk around" lens IMO.

 

So my picks for a great fast lensed kit would be 21mm DA, 35mm FA, 50-135mm DA*. You could always add a 200mm 2.8, 60-250 f/4, or 300mm f/4 down the road. The 50-135mm is a little short for spectator sports but absolutely fine for kids sports shooting the near field. Also fine for most indoor sports as you usually don't need more reach than that.

 

One caveat, you might want to wait on the 35mm as Pentax has a fast 30mm weather sealed lens on the horizon. If this is anywhere near as good as the two existing 35mm lenses, and is sealed to boot, it will be a winner! You can always pick up a 35mm f/3.5 M42 (screw mount) + adapter off ebay for about $60 total to hold you over in the normal range.

[b_bagley]

Thanks Michael. Great shot too. I really do appreciate all the information EVERYONE has given. It really is a huge help having those who have "been there" share their experiemces.

[b_bagley]

Thanks Justin.... Thats great advice. looks like I could go with a 50-135mm DA* and the 21mm DA and wait on the

30mm DA*. Those two lenses would be a fine start matched with the K20D.Now let me go see how badly this will

hurt the ole budget.

[ken_yee]

Justin brings up a good point...if you're going to drop 3-6K on lenses on CaNikon, playing w/ a K20D as a backup camera is chump change :-)

That sounds like a good starter set. If you want go zoom only, get the Tamron 17-55/2.8 and skip the DA*16-50/2.8. I've never been impressed w/ the photos from it and think my Sigma 17-70 does better wide open. The DA*50-135 is worthy of the * designation though. I don't think the 28-70/4 is available new any more.

As Justin mentioned, it really depends what you're going to use it for and how you like using lenses. Zooms or primes?

Another alternative for camera bodies is to get a lightly used K10D. With the ms.live discount, you can get it for around $350 (buy it nows are around $450 - 25% cash back). That's half the cost of the K20D that you can put towards another lens and the K10D isn't a bad camera either...same sensor as the D80/D200.

[b_bagley]

Thanks Ken.

 

Thats good advice. I do think I want the Cmos sensor on the K20D though. Think it has live view also and a few more little goodies that the K10 didn't.

[mountainvisions]

Oh, the microsoft live cash back is a dream.

 

works so well. forget rebates...log in, buy your product, and the percent back is logged in to your account. in

60 days it's yours to either transfer to your bank account or cash out with a check. No problems yet on 4-5 total

transactions 2 from Ebay and 2 from actual stores.

 

Cannot be more simple!!!

 

And yeah, I left the 16-50 2.8 out for a reason. It's the only lens that Pentax makes I have not seen

overwhelmingly good reviews on. I believe the design is fine, but the quality control on this model seems hard to

keep high for some reason. Lots of lenses with focusing errors (simple to test, simple to fix, send it back ASAP).

 

However, the upside is a 16-50 (24-75mm) fast zoom lens with weather seals. It's very inviting, but the size and

quality of the 21mm is just so nice, I really don't need another lens at or under the 20mm range (i have a

10-20mm Sigma that I love, and a 20mm F/1.8 sigma from my film days that I cannot part with YET because that 1.8

speed is sometimes soooo hard to consider giving up!!). Making things worse, I eventually intend to add the 15mm

Limited (not yet released). I'll probably sell the 20mm 1.8 at that time since it's too big to carry around "just

in case" and I prefer the 21mm over it.

[b_bagley]

Wow I need to step back a second and just take it all in. ALOT of info to process in a short time. Going to go to bed

and sleep on it . Not sure how much longer I can hold out. Thanks again to everyone and please feel free to add

ANYTHING you think that might be helpful.

[michael_kuhne]

Sure. I am like Justin in a lot of ways. I love my fine prime lenses, especially the Limiteds I own, and go about with those often. But although I have some fine quality zooms also, I have come to appreciate this new little kit lens, and for its practical convenience and very good quality, I have turn to it more than I thought I would.

 

One practical example. Upon going out for a walk on a recent vacation, the kit lens was already on the K200D, and I said "good enough" and just grabbed it up and went. Good thing, as it turned out. I did not want to haul a flash unit along, and did not think I would need one to go out and admire archetecture, gardens, and the seashore, although I did think for a moment about lower distortion of primes for archetecture. During the course of the walk, and a few shots taken, I happended into a conversation with a very interesting older lady by her house. Quite unexpectedly, she invited me in, where I took a number of shots in this facinating circumstance. Because I had this small zoom, I was able to use the built-in flash, which performed the task flawlessly. With a larger zoom lens, I would NOT have been able to get those shots! As I left, I took a grab shot of the whole front of the house with her on the porch, using the wide angle setting. I would not have gotten that wide angle with one of my primes, and the other inside framing would not have been as easy as it was with the zoom. So from a practical standpoint, this zoom was the ticket.

[michael_kuhne]

BTW, although very small and light, for a kit lens this little one is made very nicely, Has a front that does not turn during zooming or focus, making use of rotational filters much easier, is supplied with a dedicated lens hood having a reach-in window at the bottom for adjusting such filters, has an instant manual focus over ride of AF when in AF mode, (just hold the shutter release half way down and proceed to touch up focus), and an easy-clean coating. Way better than Canon or Nikon.

[b_bagley]

Thanks Michael.

 

I just left the B&H site, The K20D body is $120 cheaper than the kit price yet they sell the lens for $74.95, Is there a difference in the two lenses? If not I will order them seperately.

[michael_kuhne]

Hey, sometimes that happens. A price reduction goes through on the body, but does not catch up on the boxed kit! Yes, I just saw the DA 18-55mm AL II at B&H for $74.95, which is also reduced from a much greater price a couple of months back. Since it is the AL II, it is indeed the same lens as packed in the kit. The old one did not have the II. If getting a better deal separately, that is the way to go.

[michael_kuhne]

You know, if you call B&H and bring that price difference up, who knows, they might cut you a better deal yet on the kit!!!

[michael_kuhne]

BTW, there is a rundown of the Pentax Hyper System at the end of Erik Skipit's thread of 11-7, Buying my K20D. The Pentax Hyper System is a clever and very useful feature set that is remarkably simple to use.