Print/Album Allowance Refund - Advice needed - Legal

[jeffc1]

I know that you are not attorneys (Ohio), and that I probably need to contact one, but I just figured I would start here

since I always get great advice from these forums.

 

I covered a wedding last November 2007. The clients decided that they wanted to build their own package for my

services and their prints/album. Since they were undecided about which album to choose, they chose to give me a

$500 allowance to be applied towards a print/album order. They loved their images and the bride had an order for me

shortly after the wedding (she left voice mail for me stating this). I returned call, several times, and had to leave voice

mails of my own, as well as wrote a letter regarding this order, but I never heard back from her.

 

Just yesterday, I received an email from the "groom" stating that they are now divorced and that the "bride" decided

to move back to Tennesse, even though I just saw her working at a local retail store 2-days ago, and that he is

wanting his $500 print/album allowance back since they will not be ordering prints now? This has never happened to

me before, so I replied to that email stating that I did not feel that a refund of the allowance was justified because

they loved the images and the service they received, the amount of time that had passed and because I had to report

the total amount of package that they put together on my taxes, so I paid taxes on that amount already.

 

Yes, I had a contract with them showing everything and which states that an adjustment will be made from the order

they placed and the $500 allowance that the put down once an order is placed. It also states that the $500 will be

refunded in the event of a cancellation (wedding), but they had their wedding and I met my obligation to them, as well

as what I mentioned in the 3rd paragraph above regarding taxes.

 

They were given CD's, 3-copies (B&G and one for each set of parents) of all of the images captured, in an

origianl/unedited format with an image file size of 800x533. Therefore, they could have copied these images by now?

Plus I am not sure why he lied about the "bride" having moved to Tennesse when she obviously didn't? I am also

getting the feeling that the emails are actually coming from the "bride" and not the "groom" as the emails state

because of what and how things are stated in the email (they are neighbors and I remember talking to them so the

emails sound more like her than him)?

 

This has never happened to me before, and it's one of those live and learn things, but I did make the necessary

changes to my contract to prevent this in the future. Has this ever happened to anyone here before and what did you

do?

[jlharris]

So what did the bride say when you saw her? Have you gone back there to talk to her since you got this email?

[jeffc1]

She saw me at her place of employment, looked right at me, and turned away as though she didn't see or know me. Therefore, never said a word, not even hi as I was ready to speak to her but decided not to since I was obviously being blown off. And no, I haven't been there (her work) since receiving the emails yesterday. I do have the emails saved should I need them.

[jlharris]

Well, you already know that you really should ask a lawyer.

 

That being said, I'd offer him a partial refund. They were pre-paying for something that you ended up not delivering (their fault, but that doesn't necessarily matter) and that didn't cost you and it doesn't sound like you were clear that it was non-refundable.

 

Think about offering half the money back to whoever wrote you the check. (If she paid, you shouldn't give him the refund)

 

Or not.

[james_kellar2]

You are not liable for this refund as it is past 90 days. Yes you didn't finish your end of the agreement but they failed to contact you about this. If you want to be nice you can give them a partial refund. I personally would not refund them the money as it has been so long and they should have come to you sooner. I too live in Ohio so this would be my policy. I think that Ohio refund policy if not in writing is 14 days.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

I think you've set yourself up for this situation by giving them the files of all the images and accepting $500 for future prints/album that they now do not want to order. Had they purchased a package and wanted to re-negotiate what was in the package I think you'd have a stronger position.

 

I don't know if the divorce or relocation is a lie or not but it doesn't really matter, I think that they could have just as easily said that they've changed their minds. Your tax argument doesn't make your case either, you can simply write-off as a loss and have it carried over to the next year.

 

If they gave you $500 for prints/albums that you haven't delivered to date then I believe that they have an argument. Once it's turned over to the lawyers who knows who'll win.....regardless the attourneys on both sides of the case will get thier money. Good luck.

[m3rdpwr]

Maybe if you say no, the will magically get back together again.

 

Sorry, had to lighten the mood a tad...

 

-Mario

[picturesque]

I sorta agree with David and Joseph here. I've read on other pro forums of similar cases (not necessarily having to do with album credits), but judges generally take a dim view of photographers keeping money for which they have not provided a product or service, outside of clearly stated contract language for deposits/retainers.

 

I also agree that whether they lied to you is irrelevant. You do not know the whole story anyway and may never. In any case, if they really got divorced, I can sympathize, and if they are lying, you should still be concerned about the reputation you form when you do keep money for which you didn't provide a product or service. It isn't as if they are asking for the whole amount back. You've covered yourself for the future so why not just let this one go.

[William Michael]

No, I have not had this situation happen to me in my Wedding Photography world.

 

I agree that you have left yourself open to this situation by supplying some goods, which can be easily utilized for, or

in place of other items for which you are still hold a deposit. (no bickering over the use of non technical term

``deposit``, please).

 

I think, irrespective of how you might re-write your contract, you need to think about your sales and delivery

SYSTEM, so this does not happen again.

 

It is silly to have monies held as deposits, when the key items have been handed over to the customer, and they are

only waiting for the ``trimmings`` . . . and have their own pace to decide: all the leverage is with the customer.

 

***

 

Having got that out of the way, our business has come across a similar situation, but kinda in reverse:

 

A special order was placed and it required 4 different elements to be obtained, from various suppliers. We require

50% no refundable deposit for any special order (Note: `Deposit` has different meanings, in various countries)

 

The items came in over a one week period, but because the client`s situation was immediate, we extended a

generosity and provided three critical (but the least expensive) items to them, on the first day. The total value of

those three was just under the money already paid. The customer reneged on the fourth item, available four days

later, which was within a useful time for her, and within the commitment we gave her. But she had decided to `make

do` with what she had, and that put us out about $400 retail profit and we cannot return this type of special order.

 

My decision was to let it slide and write it off as a $ loss and chalk it up to experience, and the fact that I made a

wrong call: we have a system 50% down when ordering, 50% paid when collecting the WHOLE order. That keeps us

safe, and it is fair, I deviated from a good system and I paid the price.

 

That comes back to me suggesting to you, that your system has flaws, irrespective of all the contract and legal stuff

you guys over the pond love to get into. [That being said nicely :) ]

 

 

Prima facie: I would let it slide, write it off as a loss, and exchange your business cheque in the amount of $500, for

a receipt acknowledging the claim settled. I would not involve my solicitor (attorney) in that portion of the matter:

maybe a quick phone call asking ``is this the best business decision to make``, that is, only if you have that type of

relationship, with your legal guy.

 

WW

[Jerry_]

If it took 18 months to 'figure out' they had a $500 refund due, you could divide the $500 by 18, and send 1/18th to them over 18 months. And be sure to ask for a Tennessee mailing address so you can mail a post office money order every month to get them their refund.....

[jeffc1]

I really can see their side of this also, so I have been on the fence about this whole thing. I would be upset if I paid an allowance and didn't get anything for it, even though I would not have put myself in this situation, but, on the other hand (mine) so much time has passed and this of course was not expected (budget) due to a business slow down, not to mention coming into the "slow months".

 

The images are the CD were small files, which were also watermarked, but that's not fool proof I guess. I will chalk this up to a lesson learned, make the changes to the contract and move on. As for the clients I am referring to, I guess I will wait a little while to see what they do and then decide which action I should take.

[m3rdpwr]

I don't know anything about this type of thing really, but if someone had my money for 12 month's I would hurry up to have them give me product.

 

To me it feels like they knew trouble was coming (If what he said about the divorce was true.) and decided to not pick to try and get my money back.

 

I am engaged and signed a contract with the photographer that he get's paid no matter what and no refunds. I don't expect to get special treatment after that or get my money back for my own problems. They weren't caused by him.

 

-Mario

[g.e._masana]

"Plus I am not sure why he lied about the "bride" having moved to Tennesse when she obviously didn't?"

 

To give credence to his "divorce" story.

 

The truth is probably closer to that they're still married, decided not to order anything more and make do with what you gave them, and are trying to get that $500 back.

[veeee]

I think you owe them the money back, you got paid for shooting and everything else this was for merchandise..that they have not got from you..when someone is going through an emotional time in their marriage the last thing they think about is the wedding photos and their deposit.

 

Karma dude it will haunt you the $500 bills will eventually cost you $5000 if you keep their hard earned money....thats what I say...

 

If they are lying then Karma again....do whats right the Lord Krishna will guide you...

[veeee]

Plus why is it so hard to give someones money back for merchandise not ordered...They are not asking for a

refund on your shooting...this money was totally toward merchandise, $500 worth...

 

If they are lying maybe they need the money more than you..in either case its like puting money on layaway at

Walmart..and changing your mind few months later ...Walmart will refund your money right? So why can't these

consumers ask for their money from your establishment for items not recieved.

 

We expect our money returned from big establishments and here we are doing the wrong. I hate those mom and pop

stores that don't refund money soon as you walk out the door...maybe its anti-small business but I can't stand no

refund or exchange only policey for item returned unused...if the item is used then sure but soon as the till

rings they have your money and bye bye that sucks....what if on the way home I find the same item half off..?

and want to walk back a block to return an unused item..some of these mom and pop stores will not match the price

or do a return. Those kind of Mom & Pop stores deserve to close down in favour of Big stores I say.

 

In my books thats lousy business cause I will never set foot in that store again, and I think alot of people have

the same thought cause these M&P stores are closing down in favour of Walmart were you can change your mind...

 

Give them the refund with a smile and keep the relation maybe they will refer you to a friend..and that friend to

another....and another...you may get 10 customers from the $500 refund. And if you don't you will never know if

you would have got 10 customers from that refund and $500 is not going to make you richer, but the other

customers will and just the feeling you did what should have been done will make you morally richer.

 

 

The 12 months is your fault too...I would have contacted them every month maybe 4 months after the wedding to

remind them and you know what offered them their money back if they don't want to order from me.

[jeffc1]

I have packages (set price) that includes album/prints. Contract states that there will be no refund (no exceptions)

after services have been rendered. For those that cannot afford a package, I allow them to build their own where they

pay for services and can choose which prints/album they would like after they see images, but a $500 allowance is

required as part of that package building that they choose to go with in good faith that they will order prints and/or an

album of their wedding that I put so much time and creativity in. I did say in contract that an adjustment will be made

on their actual total after they ORDER. It does not state that the allowance will be refunded if you do not want prints,

but that the allowance will be refunded providing the wedding is called off (cancelled) at the last minute, not after

services have been rendered and you get a divorce? I can feel his pain is what he says is true, and I am not trying

to "rip them off" in any way. However, I shoot the wedding I book myself, so I can only do one wedding per what ever

date, and I did have to turn other possible clients away from that date because I was booked with them, so that's

another way to look at it, which is why I am on the fence. Not only did I turn away clients that probably would have

paid more for a package, which is normally the case, but now they want me to be part of their "divorce" problem by

wanting money back after I met my obligation to them, so it's like double jepordy for me if I refund the $500?

 

I did pray to Jesus on this and I know the Holy Spirit will guide me to what is right and fair. These people have

already lied to me about the "bride" going to Tennesse, which is relevant, because it shows their character. I found

out that past clients did in fact print images from the proof CD they were given, prior to me putting watermarks on the

images, and the client I am dealing with was refered to me by one of those dishonest clients from the past.

 

I just need to make changes to how the proofs are presented, as well as be totally clear on my contract about NO

refunds NO exceptions, which I have already taken care of the contract. I am going to wait and see what they decide

to do and make a decision from there, but as far as right now I am not planning on returning anything to them.

 

Funny how people state they love their images but I do not receive orders? That's my own stupidity for being so

trusting of others, but fortunately for me the majority have been honest. I still plan on covering my butt better for the

minority!

[jeffc1]

Veej:

 

First of all, I did contact them, several times, as stated above, but they never returned my call. Therefore, in my book, they had ample opportunity to return my calls and letter to let me know what was going on, but they failed to do so not me. Secondly, when you put stuff on lay-away, you do not take those items with you until they are paid for, and they were basically given the mercahndise by way of the 3-proof CD's. Thirdly, unfortunately in the real world in which we live, if you give in to a certain few, which labels you a "sucker" to some others will come and expect the same, so I have to draw the line somewhere. I mean watch the news and look at our economy! It didn't get this way becuase of hard working honest people! There's too much greed and selfishness, which I am not, and I have been burnt before, but I only allow myself to be burnt once. I don't believe I want to be burnt again in this way.

[veeee]

Jeffrey, so the $500 was a deposit for Albums or prints they may order right? but they did pay you for shooting that day right?

 

Maybe as photographers we should start getting it into our contracts a price for no orders, so you shoot and give them a decent quality pictures which they can take to Costco or Black's and make their own album.

 

The times are changing and many people feel that if they pay us to shoot something we don't own that something totaly like when a artist is commisioned to paint a picture of us he gives us the picture not a copy and retaining the rights to the original...

 

I've come to that point of shoot and leave...let them do what-ever they want..with their shots, since they have paid me for my time to shoot.

 

the time are changing....B.Dylan

[m3rdpwr]

Quote: Veej - "I've come to that point of shoot and leave...let them do what-ever they want..with their shots, since they have paid me for my time to shoot.

the time are changing....B.Dylan"

 

This is how I am arranging with my wedding photographer.

 

He's taking the pic's and handing over full resolution pic's for me to do with whatever at a very good price...

 

-Mario

[david_schilling___chicago_]

Veej, for a brand new photographer you sure have alot of opinions on what the industry should or shouldn't do. The major cost of the prints and the album is involved in the creative production of those products. Jeffrey isn't interested in selling $500 worth of bulk paper. Typical markup price over cost is three to four-fold. This would translate to Jeffrey taking a loss of about $350-400 in promised sales.....at least that's better than a loss of $500.

 

Photographers that have "come to that point of shoot and leave...let them do what-ever they want..with their shots, since they have paid me for my time to shoot." are frequently referred to as the new generation of "churn & burn" photographers. While the times may be changing, some changes just are not that positive for the industry: http://www.sonopp.com/Perspectives/Devaluing/Devaluing.htm

[jeffc1]

Very well put Dave! Thank you! I, for one, will never become that kind of a photographer because creativity and quality will always be priority. Client satisfaction is also a priority, but I cannot allow a certain few to take advantage of me as I will not take advantage of my clients. I am honest and fair to myself as well as the clients.

[savagesax]

No refunds, only credit towards a foto sitting.

[g.e._masana]

WalMart? They got rid of their layaway plan back in 2006. Even so, if you wanted a refund, it was subject to

termination and cancellation fees.

 

And were you to purchase a gift card from WalMart with which to buy product in the future, if you then wish to

refund it, they don't give you cash back. It goes as a credit back to your gift card.

 

And that's a retail business with multiple locations that does tremendous cash flow. A one-person or two-person

local area service business is an entirely different business model.

 

Jeffrey, the couple put in the money to be applied to a product purchase. That was the deal. It's up to them to

perform on their end of that deal, If they don't, then it stays by default as a credit.

 

>> These people have already lied to me about the "bride" going to Tennesse, which is relevant, because it shows

their character >>

 

It's really not that relevant. Your policies have nothing to with what you assess the customer's character may be

like. Lies or not, everyone is under the same rules. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly something you'd take note

of in your dealings with them. I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of their mouth.

 

>> Funny how people state they love their images but I do not receive orders? >>

 

My point exactly! Talk is cheap.

 

Anyway, if this is your livelihood, what you need to pay your bills with, then the number one rule is: You can't

let people mess around with your livelihood.

 

>> I would have contacted them every month maybe 4 months after the wedding to remind them >>

 

Yeah, it must be fun being a bill collector.

 

The fact is they don't need "reminding". They seem to remember very well indeed that they have $500 with this

photographer. They even fabricated a divorce story to run around it. It's obviously on their mind.

 

After a couple of calls, that couple will not pick up the phone when they see it's you calling. Note how they

haven't returned Jeffrey's calls. It's not an oversight on their part.

 

You've got a lot to learn, sir.

[james_kellar2]

I would like to first say you are not Walmart. I would give them the photos they paid for and no refunds period. I live in Ohio also and have never heard of something like this. If they don't want the prints give them a partial refund like $300. I have a no refund policy that after 14 days there is no refunds and 30 days for wedding contracts with the stipulation that the client can change their date within 14 days to their origioanal date to another open date. You can refund their money if you think you would feel better over it but next time learn from this mistake. When I do print orders I deliver the package within 5 business days no exceptions, basically I don't take future orders if they want prints they pay and I deliver within a week.

[elizabeth_russell1]

To avoid problems I'd go ahead and refund them their print money. I came across similar problems with clients

waiting up to a year and half to place their album and print orders. So I decided to put this in my contract. <br>

"7. All orders including the fulfillment of your package must be placed within 2 months after they have been

uploaded online. Likewise all order must be picked up at the studio within 2 months of there availability.

Failing to do either of these will result in forfeiting your package. You will be notified through e-mail or a

phone call" <br>

This has saved me a lot of headache and has put a deadline on the clients to get their orders into me within a

reasonable time frame.