Does Leica need money fast (M8 horror story)

[jeffrey_prokopowicz]

Kelly Flanigan, are you for real? It amazes that there's always people who will defend the camera companies when there is no reasonable defense. Just admit that Leica is wrong, and it's Leica being Leica.

 

And I thought Nikon biotches drank the KoolAid. This is taking it to whole new level. What's in it for you?

[steve_swinehart]

"Steve, it is not weather sealed in any way. Not good advice for someone who has just dropped an arm and leg on a cam."

 

My arm, my leg....not your wallet - why should you care? But, it's worked fine in two situations in the rain. I just dried it off and put it back in the bag. BTW - the camera kicks butt...I've been making 20x30 prints from the files after figuring out the correct work flow.

 

The camera + 4 lenses fits into a bag that is not much larger than my Hasselblad 500cm camera, PME viewfinder, and 50mm lens. Couldn't say enough nice things about it....but, as always, your mileage may vary depending upon how you treat your equipment. As John Wayne once said, "Life's tough." "It's even tougher if you're stupid."

[kelly_flanigan1]

Jeffrey; it just sounds real odd that a camera would fail due to condensation after being used in a dry area like Greenland. <BR><BR>There is "nothing in it for me". It just doesnt add up; a camera with "water damage" that died in a dry climate; radically drier that the rest of the world due to condensation only. <BR><BR>Getting moisture to condense in a super area requires a larger temperature difference; ie like a stone cold camera was brought into a warm room and the water condensed on the item; like a cold beer glass; or it got rained one and one was unlucky.<BR><BR><BR><BR> I really am not for or against Leica; I dont believe in getting a free camera for one that went underwater; or that folks should keep quiet if the camera only got a few drops on it either<BR><BR>.<BR><BR> A camera can just fail due to a bad solder joint too; with the moisture problem of corrosion NOT the real failure mode. The many comments that folks make about folks thinking a moisture damaged electronic item as being a simple and inexpensive thing sort of comes across abit bizzare.. I guess most folks here have never worked in repair of consumer goods, or worked on electronic items that have seen water damage since the dogma preached is the repair should be cheap; easy or for free. In Katrina areas often cars, cameras even houses etc were totaled out because of the publics lack of understanding about water damage and the costs of repair involved.<BR><BR> I spent many years in the disc drive industry dealing with failures in the field; failures often do not follow the tenured chaps little models at all. In several cases the units that ran hotter lasted longer due to LESS moisture problems; it the real life test units have a perpendicular line to the dogma groups Arrhenius curve. If the M8 in question was taken apart; the failure mode becomes less of a guess; more like detective work; this helps with making the design more robust if the design can be improved. There can just be decent water resistant seals that do not work well at lower temps; a la space shuttle. Or there can be just a part left off; or the camera had a bad solder joint. This is just one data point; one camera; the Koolaid drinkers here may not grasp that it doesnt apply to all M8's. <BR><BR> I bought a NEW Nikkormat FTN-K in 1974 that had a MTBF of about 2 to 5 rolls of film; it lived in the Garden City repair for more than I owned; ie died three times; finally it was stolen. Yet some used Nikkormats FS; FT Ftns never failed; even the new one I bought in 1973. Yet a used NIkon F I got in 1962 has never had a CLA; it never even had "foam" either and peanut gallery always say one should add foam; get a cla too. <BR><BR>One might ask others how many M8s of died due to condensation or rain; since this thread implies the camera dies with a hint of moisture. Folks with a closed mind cannot accept that this is a grey area; moisture damage. With my own cameras such as my Epson RD-1/s I dry it off if it gets a sprinkle; its allowed to air dry; its not stored away wet. <BR><BR>

[Jerry_]

Pentax has a digital body-lens camera unit that is good for 15 feet of water depth. Light moisture and 3,340 euro makes for one "not-so-good" initial investment.

 

 

 

Good luck in your future trips....

[kelly_flanigan1]

So what does it say in the M8's owners manual's boilerplate about rain and moisture? This might be critcial if the goal is to sue and get another camera. Many consumer electonic items mention to dry the unit off; take the batteries out; and allow the unit to be dry before trying to turn it on again.

[steve_swinehart]

Here's my problem with this whole story. He first posted this on 8-08 on another Leica forum, and the story gets more convoluted,and less his fault every time he's posted it. Now, he's got new, revised versions on two other forums...at first he just put the camera in the side pocket of his back pack, now it was neatly packed between towels...etc. Not that packing it in towels would protect it from condensation. But, where did the towels come from?

 

Apparently, he just can't get enough sympathy.

[steve_swinehart]

"So what does it say in the M8's owners manual's boilerplate about rain and moisture?"

 

Page 125 of the M8 Instructions:

 

"Ensure that water cannot get into the Leica M8, e.g. when it is snowing or raining and on the beach. If salt water spray gets onto the Leica M8, wet a soft cloth with tap water, wring it out thoroughly and wipe the camera with it. Then wipe the camera with a dry cloth."

 

Condenstation:

If condensation has formed on or in the Leica M8, you should turn it off and leave it to stand at room temperature for around an hour. Once the camera temperature has adjusted to room temperature, the condensation will disappear by itself."

[marc_bergman1]

Steve,

 

While you are at it, why don't you kick his dog?

[Allen Herbert]

"My arm, my leg....not your wallet - why should you care"

 

Well, Steve, it goes like this.....

 

Why should we care about anything as long as we are, alright?

 

Unfortunately in the real world not all folk have fat bulging wallets...not having the tough choice, of the day, as to what

to gorge their money on. So, they and look on the internet seeking information on what cams are value for money,

and how good they are..places like this.

 

So, i don't think it is very nice to pull someone’s pants down, feeding them a load of nonsense, about the superiority

of a very expensive cam...when is just not true.

 

Perhaps then they will purchase a more sensible option, and be able to feed and cloth their children, and pay their

mortgage this month......perhaps then the world would not be in the mess it’s presently in.....

[photo_dark]

Typical Leica. Leica Geosystems is exactly the same way (I know, different branches, but they act the EXACT same way).

 

I've never met a leica rep that wasn't an arrogant prick. They are unrealistic, these pieces of crap are tested in a lab, not in the real world, and it shows.

 

My $50 cell phone has gone through the washing machine and still works... 3 years later. What the hell is wrong with leica that they can't invest $100 into their products in the form of weather sealing? Is rubber really that expensive these days?

 

This is exactly the reason i would NEVER buy a leica.

[neil_fraser1]

Why is there always so much bickering in the Leica forum? Regardless of what it says in the owners manual, if I had a

camera that cost that much and dies after being exposed to a bit of condensation, I would be pretty annoyed. Even

more so when the manufacturers tried to land me with a bill like that to fix it! It's a box of circuits, I'm NOT an electronics engineer but I honestly cant imagine that they cost that much to produce.

 

Anyway, for a camera that allegedly aimed at pro photographers it's pretty poor that it isn't protected somehow. So

much for Leica quality. This is taken from the Leica website:

 

Robustness & discretion

The new LEICA M8.2 is the very first professional digital camera to use an ultra scratch-resistant sapphire crystal as

coverglass for the camera monitor. It is so hard that it can only be worked with special diamond tools. The camera also

sports a new easy-grip and specially robust "vulcanite" finish.

 

Ha!!! Reinier, don't you feel lucky that they thought of that 'ultra scratch-resistant sapphire crystal', at least your LCD

screen isn't damaged!

[neil_fraser1]

Ah, just noticed my mistake. You have the M8 not the M8.2. If only you had paid for the 1320 EURO (!) upgrade, they

might have thought to put a bit of rubber tubing in there somewhere...

[Alex_Es]

I actually had considered the M8.2 until I read this story. I don't care what sort of glass they use for the monitor. If the

camera cannot deal with condensation it's not worth it. Too bad Leica is this lousy about backing up its flagship M camera.

When working the M8 is a great camera to use. But if ever I go to Greenland it will be with an M6 and an M2 as a backup.

[User_502260]

In August I took the ferry from Burlington, VT to NY to go to Ausable Chasm. If I had known that the water level in the chasm was so low I would have brought a camera. The walking/hiking path is no problem but we went on the raft ride too. As it turned out the water was calm and I could have taken a camera but I left body and some lenses in a knapsack in the car instead. After the raft ride I went back to the entrance area and got a few nice shots of the waterfall area. I do not generally like to leave any camera equipment in a car but I wanted to be able to have it for later in the day and for the ferry rides. What I have thought about for a while but have not yet acted on is getting a late model Nikonos with the standard 35/2.5 lens. I would be interested in knowing the name of a place which specializes in servicing and maintaining Nikonos VF (non-SLR) cameras. I have two of the yellow Minolta 110 underwater cameras somewhere even though I have never actually used them under water. For prints up to about 5X7 you can have some fun with these.

 

There was a thread recently which discussed the issue of when people would be afraid to bring an expensive camera. When you see a TV show on lobster fishermen in the Bering Sea, the company shooting the episodes has an adequate budget for ruined equipment. The average person doesn't have as large a budget for this. I don't take pictures for a living so I woudn't bring any electronic camera to a place where it might get wet. It's just the wrong equipment for that purpose. If the weather is iffy I will take an old Nikkormat. It would have to get really wet for the battery or meter to stop working and the shutter is mechanical. Would I take a Minolta X-700 or Konica FT-1 in the same weather? No I wouldn't.

 

In the summer of 1973 I went with my parents across Canada fro Winnipeg to Vancouver Island. In between was the Columbia Ice Field. We took a ride on a half track type of vehicle on the glacier. It was snowing pretty hard and I was afraid to take out my Konica Autoreflex T2. I used my father's Konica Auto S1.6. To protect the camera I removed the UV filter and put a plastic bag over the camera. Then I screwed the filter in over the bag to cut a hole in it. After that I removed the round piece and caught the edges of the hole when I put the filter back. The camera was protected and I got some nice shots. Using an expensive electronic camera without protection in bad weather or near water is just not recommended. There are alternatives.

[nathancraver]

Not trying to be funny, but don't people pretty much buy Leica for the name, like spending $6,000 on a Prada bag or pair of

shoes? I have heard bad things about Leica service, and that even their newer (film) cameras still use technology that has

not evolved since the 1950's and '60's. I'm not saying that Leicas are garbage, I'm just suggesting that money would be

better spent buying a camera that is actually designed for practical use. It's like buying a $150 pair of Timberlands versus

$6000 Alligator shoes. Sure, you can walk in both, but which one do you think you will wear anywhere and not worry

yourself stupid about scuffing them, or if they will hold up for what you need them for?

[Spearhead]

<i>Using an expensive electronic camera without protection in bad weather or near water is just not recommended.</i><P>I use a Canon 1DMk3 in wet environments all the time. It's not about electronics, it's about weather sealing. BTW, some of these environments have non-water fluids and that hasn't been a problem either.

[keith_lubow]

Too bad, but to be expected.

 

Leicas are not made for professionals. They are made for yuppies. This has been the case for many, many, many years now. They don't expect you or anyone who owns one to blink at that sort of repair cost, or to get a second opinion. If you want a camera to do well in difficult situations, you need a pro body, and this has always been the case. The M8 is great, but fragile, obviously. Leica is doomed, and for good reason. They ought to just be smart and sell off to Nikon or Canon.

 

IMHO, get an M2, M3, or M4 and a nice film scanner if you must use a Leica.

[bobmichaels]

OT - Jeff Adler asked "What I have thought about for a while but have not yet acted on is getting a late model

Nikonos with the standard 35/2.5 lens. I would be interested in knowing the name of a place which specializes in

servicing and maintaining Nikonos VF (non-SLR) cameras."

 

Jeff the place is http://www.southern-nikonos.com/ I believe they bought all the spares / repair parts from Nikon

when the Nikonos was discontinued. I have had good luck dealing with them.

 

You can buy a fully mechanical Nikonos III w the 35mm lens for just over $100-. I believe every photographer who

lives an active lifestyle around the water should own one, even if they are not a diver.

[Tony Rowlett]

If water is bad for the M8, I'll bet Champagne isn't.

[gwebster]

This is indeed a sad tale Reiner and as an M8 owner myself, I find your story very disturbing. You have my

sympathy - 3340 euros for the repair seems outrageous to me and based upon what you have told us, it looks like

Leica is giving you the brush-off. As a fan of many of Leica's offerings and a fairly heavily invested customer

myself, I am very disappointed to hear this.

 

Contrary to what the press is saying, perhaps Leica is actually doing really well if they can afford to treat

their existing customers like this!

 

Reiner, you're sure to get one or two of the (thankfully) minority of mean-spirited souls here who will basically

tell you to stop whining, but such schadenfreude is easy to indulge in when they're not the one who is suffering.

As Alex points out, putting even more money into an M8 for the upgrade seems much less appealing in light of this.

[steve_mareno]

I don't think I would throw good money after bad by buying another M8. True, the images I have seen from them are nearly as good as film (sorta). So just shoot film. The fragility and complexity of a digital RF camera that costs many thousands of dollars is a dead end street unless you are shooting w/ other people's money. It is just an accident waiting to happen. Now that your accident has happened, don't drive into the same tree w/ the same car. Buy yourself a perfectly good film RF camera and some good glass. Get a good scanner and some pro film. Prepare to be absolutely pleased by the results. If you could get an M8 for a reasonable price I would say differently, but you can't.

[harvey_edelstein1]

When I posted I was reluctant to say I am an EE because there is nothing wrong with what was done here according to Reineirs post. The problem is in shoddy design. Why my $39 atomic Casio watch which has a radio inside to receive clocking from the Colorado atomic clock, solar cells, lcd display, and other electronic subsystems comes with me to the pool, showers and whirlpool and still works? Its the design, proper seals etc.

 

Leica is a premium cost item with so so IQ that can be matched at less than half the cost. Sticking a customer who spends that kind of money for the repair for condesation is amazing.

 

About this notion that dry cold means that condensation will not take place is dumb. If I take a beer mug and stick it in my frost free freezer let it cool for a half hour which is equivalent to the camera here and then put it in the warm bag and take it indoors where the temperature is much warmer its going to sweat. The air indoors can hold more moisture and the temperature differential insures condensation.

 

Asking someone to fiddle with removing batteries, not switching it on and waiting for gradual camera warming is a good way of saying your camera will miss that photographic moment you took the camera along to capture.

 

Even a cheap P&S will do a better job than this for one tenth the price.

[ray .]

<i>Here's my problem with this whole story. He first posted this on 8-08 on another Leica forum...</i><p>Yes, and I asked

why he didn't CALL Leica Customer Service and he ignored the comment.<p>

 

Looks like a lot of people are getting hysterical about this, just on the basis of hearsay..

[clive1]

Alex, you must be on first-name basis with the Leica folks in Tokyo, you've sent your M8 in so many times! What a lot of

hassle for a lot of money!

[el_fang]

<i>Now what is going on here. Does Leica need money fast?</i>

<p>Yes. The likely culprit is Leica's slumping sales, reported in <a

href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122152103387739231.html" target="_blank">this Wall Street Journal

article</a>, which in turn was discussed in <a href="http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00Qrw5"

target="_blank">this thread</a>. The most relevant text from the article is as follows:</p>

<p><i>Leica reported in August that revenue for its fiscal first quarter ended June 30 fell by nearly half to

€26.999 million from the year-earlier quarter, and reported a net loss of €3.85 million. It reiterated that it

expects a loss approaching €10 million for the fiscal year ending March 2009, and break-even or slightly positive

earnings in the following fiscal year if sales of new products take off. Mr. Kaufmann estimates that annual sales

have to climb by about two-thirds to at least €250 million to finance the R&D spending for Leica to survive in an

industry that rolls out improved digital cameras every few months.</i></p>