BRONICA dilemma

[john_adams20]

Hi everyone,

I've already looked through the forums, searching for a thread that deals with a similar question, but have so

far been unsuccessful in finding an equivalent post. So here goes, de novo...

 

I am a newbie to the medium format, having gotten sick of the 35 mm and digital. I setup a darkroom at home with

a Super Chromega D enlarger, which works for color and B&W. While I am primarily interested in B&W, I want to try

out color later as well. Anyways...to get to my point, I am currently trying to decide on an entry-level medium

format camera. I spent countless hours reading reviews of different MF cameras, and I've narrowed it down to

BRONICA brand, since their lenses and cameras seem to outperform Mamiya, although they can be more expensive.

 

My primary use will be:

- landscapes, architecture

- some portraits, and occasional street shooting and pet photoraphy

- all for my own pleasure, no commercial activity...I like exploring my artistic side I guess...I don't

anticipate much flash use. I am totally fine with a tripod and I don't care about getting only 10 prints off a

120mm roll with 6x7.

 

Since my main move away from 35mm is for resolution and contrast, I am thinking of 6x7, as opposed to 6x4.5. So

6x6 is an option. I've narrowed it down to the three BRONICAs:

1) SQ-A or SQ-Ai (SQ-A more likely since my budget is preferably under $400). Advantage is the 6x6 format.

2) ETRSi 6x4.5, so least likely to pick this one.

3) GS-1 6x7 format, most desired

 

Now, I'm confused because all three of these come with interchangeable backs to convert to different formats, so

does that mean that all three can basically be used with all three formats? Or will using a 6x4.5 format on a

GS-1 result in missing the right third of the picture since the lens projects to the entire 6x7 area?

 

I was wondering if one of these has advantages over the others in terms of reliability etc. I plan on getting it

from keh.com. I was wary of the BGN cameras, but this forum brought up two good points:

1) just because a camera is in EX or EX+ or LN state doesn't mean that it hasn't been used to shoot 100,000+

photos in a studio

2) just because a cameras is beat-up and scratched doesn't mean that it has been used rarely by someone who

dropped it

 

My other alternative was a Mamiya M645 Pro, which I can get for under $300 from keh.com, but it seems that

Bronica has better optics, even their older lenses (before the PS editions).

 

Eventually, I plan on going to a Hasselblad system, but for now, I first want to experiment with a cheap alternative.

 

Any input is greatly appreciated!

[jay_miao1]

The different format backs are only meant to be interchangeable within a particular model, i.e. SQ series, ETRSi, or GS-1, not between the three models. So you'll only have formats of 4.5x6, 6x6 for SQ, 4.5x6, 6x7, and 6x6 (not too sure) for GS-1, while only 4.5x6 for the ETRSi. In addition, there's another option back for 35mm format which as far as I know SQ models may take advantage of.

[richard baznik]

I have more than a decade of experience with a Bronica GS-1 system, all of it purchased used, and have used it for

all the applications you mention except pet photography. Let me see if I can clarify some things about the Bronica

models.

 

First, Bronica SLRs offer alternative back sizes so you can use the native size of the model you have (say, 6x7) and

smaller sizes (6x6, and 6x4.5). You can't reverse the process, however. Thus the ETRSi (6x4.5 native

size) can't use a back formatted for 6x6 or 6x7, because the camera body and the image circle of the lens simply

won't accommodate the larger areas. When I use a 6x6 or

6x4.5 back on the GS-1, I know that the film is going to record less than the full image I see in the finder. I use a

ground glass pane with grid markings on it that allow me to estimate very accurately where the smaller image's

borders will be. Note that each model has alternative backs customized for that model.

 

Second, all three of the Bronica models offer comparable quality and reliability (very high, in my experience),

assuming you are comparing gear of similar vintage. With the exception of the street photography and perhaps some

of the pet photography, most of what you say you're going to do with it would mean the gear would be tripod-

mounted, so any of the three would work.

 

Third, since the GS-1's image is "landscape" in orientation, however, you'll need to make sure you get a prism finder

for the vertical format you'll probably want for portraits (using the waist-level finder for "portrait" orientation is not

advised). I've used the GS-1 system for hand-held street shooting and occasional informal portraits, and for that you'll

need the speed grip accessory which clamps onto the right side of the body. Note that the GS-1, as the largest of

the three models, is also a bit heavier than the others.

 

Fourth, as for KEH, I've not bought any BGN items from them myself. Most have been EX or higher, but I can attest

to the firm's outstanding customer service.

 

Finally, I won't get into a comparison of Bronica vs. Mamiya glass. Down that path lies endless flaming. I will say

that I've never felt "lens envy" in the presence of other MF brands. I should note, however, that there are digital backs

for some Mamyia and Hasselblad models in the event that you think you might want to go in that direction. To my

knowledge there are no digital backs for the Bronicas.

 

Hope this helps.

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

I've owned 645 systems (Mamiya Pro TL, Bronica RF645), 66 (Minolta Autocord), and 67 (Mamiya 7). I did find 645 to be a huge improvement over 35mm, and I made excellent 11x14 B&W prints, and very good 16x20 prints. So don't hesitate in buying 645 unless you are printing even larger than that. Besides the additional frames, you'll find that most 645 gear is smaller, lighter, and less expensive than 67.

 

I did sell my Mamiya 645 gear because the flash sync was painfully slow (1/60). Yes, you can buy some leaf shutter lenses for the 645, but it feels like a kludge - you have to make sure that you've set a slow speed on the focal plane shutter so that it doesn't interfere with the leaf shutter in the lens.

[Uncle Goose]

I've been using the ETRSi for a few years now and I'm very happy with it. The camera's have a real quality build and feel very solid. However, I would only go for the latest models (that is the GS, ETRSi and SQAi) because they are newer and have more functions (like bulb, MLU and multiexposures). The older models preform OK, that's not the problem but sometimes you might miss the options like Bulb and stuff. The prices are all fair on used equipment so with a few hundred bucks you can get a nice kit already.

[jack_welsh]

John, just remember that 6x6 is 645 cropped to the standard 8x10. But, with fewer negs per roll.

[johnw436]

Ditto to Jack's point. For standard sized prints you may prefer 6x4.5 or 6x7. 645 is basically a native 8x10 print with basically zero crop. 6x7 is going to give you what you are used to seeing with 35mm. I am speaking of native print size here, not print quality of course.

 

6x6 is really nice because you never have to flip the camera on its side, but unless you want square pictures (and you might) you will crop every frame- so basically you are shooting 645 and getting less frames per roll as Robert says. There is a good reason 645 was the workhorse wedding camera forever. If you notice, MF digital backs are standardized on 645 as well.

 

645 is my favorite format. If I need larger than 645 I move up to 4x5. 35mm does fine for 8x10s, so what are we really talking about here? A 6mp DSLR can do 8x10 for most people's tastes.

 

MF has a completely different 'look' than 35mm does. That is my biggest reason for using it.

[nathancraver]

I have a Bronica GS-1 that I have been using for about a year and a half, and I absolutely love that camera. Right now I

only have 2 lenses for it, 65mm and 150mm, but I will get more. The meter, although it has a pretty wide center weighted

area, has never let me down. Every time I shoot this camera, I am blown away by the clarity and depth of the

prints I get from it. My only wishes for this camera would be if it had the meter display at the bottom of the viewfinder instead of

the top ( it takes some getting used to and is not in the easiest spot to see), and I wish Bronica had a zooms for it, (they

do for the ETR and SQA series). The speed grip is absolutely essential as I normally shoot hand held. I don't care that

there is no motor drive for it. Lenses can be found relatively inexpensively and they are very sharp. I also have a

Mamiya 645 AFD II and though I love shooting that camera, I don't get as much joy out of using it as the Bronica. The

Bronicas are very simple, built like tanks, GS-1 is lighter than most other 6x7s, and can produce incredible images (as

long as you can too, of course). I may sell my 645 AFD II and put that on a Nikon D700, but I will never part with my

Bronica.

[david_henderson]

I'm not going to comment on the relative qualities of the Bronica models, since I think the difference between them is more a function of format preferences and ergonomics than picture quality. Personally I use SQA-i bodies, and enjoy not having to worry about turning the camera on its side.

 

What I think is important is that with ageing camera, its pretty important that you get a good example of whatever you choose. The GS1 was always far and away the least popular of the Bronica models and was discontinued first. That means there's less used gear around than for the other models, which in turn means that you might have more difficulty, now and in the future, finding the bits you want and in the future being able to replace anything that malfunctions. Alternatively you might have to go further up (or down) the quality/price spectrum to get what you need than you might like.

[steve m smith]

<I>"I won't get into a comparison of Bronica vs. Mamiya glass. Down that path lies endless flaming. "</I><BR><BR>There's no point. I have both Mamiya and Bronica and I don't think I could tell the difference from a print.

[photo5]

I've owned both Mamiya (RB67 Pro) and Bronica (ETRS and SQ) and both have excellent lenses, no discernable difference that I could see. Zeiss optics are in their own class, however, in my experience with Rollei TLR and Hasselblad cameras.

 

I really enjoyed my Mamiya RB67 Pro-S. I loved the rotating back, no need to fiddle with the tripod when I wanted to change orientation. My 16x20 enlargements were crisp and clear.

 

That being said, the small compact Hasselblad and Rollei TLRs are great too. Very much a hand-holdable camera.

 

The Bronica ETRS is another favorite, with the speed grip it's about perfect. I would get the ETRSi though to have the mirror pre-release which the ETRS does not have. The PE lenses are also improved over the older EII lenses (which were excellent already).

[brian_schall]

Actually 6x9 is the same aspect ratio as 35mm, not 6x7 as stated above.

 

I've had a SQa for probably 12-13 years. It's always has worked, with never a problem, from the swamps of Florida to the sand of New Mexico. I have both the 6x6 and 6x4.5 back for it, giving me the option of square of rectangle prints. The lenses are first rate. With a speed grip, it's as easy to shoot as any 35mm SLR, maybe even easier. The leaf shutters make fill flash easy as pie. But a draw back to the leaf shutters is the 1/500 max shutter speed.

 

Right now the ETRS and SQa are a bargain. The GS-1 is much harder to find. If I could do over, I'd like the GS-1 with both 6x7 and 6x6 backs just for the bigger negatives.

[pavelp]

John,

 

don't worry much about choosing the perfect camera. Try one and if it does not work out, sell it and try something else. MF gear is cheap and fun to play with. If you are attracted to 6x7, be ready to lift some weights as none of the 6x7 SLR is exactly small. Bronica GS-1 is excellent (I used to have it) but the lack f rotating back is a pain and the minimum focus distance is kinda longish (so I eventually ended up with R67). You cannot go wrong with SQa system either but as already mentioned, for most crops, you ended up effectively using 6x4.5 frames, so if the film size is you primary criteria, you want 6x7.

 

On the other hand, shooting square format is an entirely different experience from shooting 645 as you get two shots at composition (one when you shoot and another one when you crop for printing). I often shoot 6x6 on my vacation trips and end up with four different output formats: portrait, landscape, square and diamond (a gimmick, but when used rarely and with care, it works).

 

Regarding the KEH bargain equipment, my experience is that it often comes with a minor problem. I bought a 50mm lens for RB67 and it would not fire in M sync (that's for flashbulbs so who cares, but a defect nonetheless). The Pentax 645 AF zoom that I bought recently has a minor problem with two click stops on the aperture ring. KEH guarantees that all gear is fully functional so they will repair the defects and sometimes even refund some or all the shipping charges but it's an extra hassle that you may or may not care about.

[speed_trials]

I don't understand why people always talk about cropping to 8x10. Unless you are shooting an assignment with a

specific requirement, there is no reason that you have to crop your 6x6 negative down to 6x4.2 or your 6x7

negative to 5.6x7 to perfectly fill an 8x10 sheet. If you are an amateur doing this for fun, please be aware

that a lot of advise from former/current wedding/commercial photographers just does not apply to you.

 

If you enjoy composing square pictures. then get a 6x6 camera. If you enjoy composing rectangles then get a 645

or a 6x7. You will enjoy composing with the entire viewfinder much more than to some fraction of it.

[john_adams20]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm thanks for all the responses.

I am currently leaning towards the GS-1, again due to size. It seems that portability is about the same between the GS-1, SQ-Ai and ETRSi. I've read several reviews from people who claim taking decent handheld shots with the camera on a strap. I guess my alternative is the SQ-Ai, and I'll just buy

 

It's a starter camera, and I can always switch to Hasselblad later on. I plan on doing mostly 8x10 print, but am not limited to that size at all. I just saw that B&H sells Ilford's 10x10 paper. I bought 500 sheets of ILFORD MC 6 years ago and stored it safely ever since, so @ first, I'm curious to try printing on that paper. I'm a bit confused about the whole paper issue because Ilford's website doesn't mention that they make RC paper, or any B&W paper for that matter, but B&H sells it. I wonder if these are surplus supplies.

 

Anyways, I can get a beat-up BARGAIN-priced GS-1 WITH 100 F3.5 PG (72), 120 6X7 BACK, PRISM and SPEEDGRIP G, from keh camera for $323. Is that a reasonable price? I know that the regular prism sucks...I plan on getting the AE II or III later, as well as additional lenses.

 

It's tempting though to buy an ETRSi in an EXCELLENT+ condition for $250 or a Mamiya M645 Pro for $250. I'm still stuck on the GS-1, even though I'd have to get a beat-up system...it seems that BRONICA has everything I want in a camera.

[steve m smith]

<I>"I've read several reviews from people who claim taking decent handheld shots with the camera on a

strap".</I><BR><BR>

Of course you can. Most comments that have been made about mirror vibration and hand holding are not really valid

because at the shutter speeds you are likely to use hand held, mirror vibration should not be a problem.<BR><BR>

The RB67 (and, I assume the RZ) has a cam system for the mirror and is damped quite well. It makes a nice,

satisfying operating sound compared to the 'clang' my ETRS makes!

<BR><BR>Also, the weight of these cameras gives them extra inertia which also assists to counter vibration.

[nathancraver]

Shooting the GS-1 hand held is not a problem at all. The speed grip makes it quite comfortable to use and to me, it gives

extra leverage against mirror flop. I shoot 100 ISO film hand held all day in bright sunny conditions. If I'm not sure of the

weather or if it is overcast, I just use T-Max 400 with an orange filter. Of the 40+ rolls of film I have shot with this

camera, I would have to say only about 20 or 30 shots have been taken on a tripod (and I have only had 6 or 7 shots

suffer from hand-shake blur). I do wish the shutter went above 1/500 sec., but after getting used to it, it doesn't seem to

matter that much. Improvise, adapt, and overcome. If you are going to buy a used camera, I would definitely

recommend not going for a "bargain" priced one. You don't want to have to replace it after a year, and in my humble

opinion, the "excellent" or "E+" cameras would be worth the few extra bucks. Consider how much these cameras cost

when they were new. You would still be getting an incredible bargain. I bought mine about a year and a half ago. I bought

the body, AE prism, Speed grip, 120 6x7 back, 220 6x7 back, 65mm, and 150 mm lenses for a total of $650 U.S. The

camera and accessories were in excellent condition and the lenses look and work like they were brand new. Try finding

your nearest camera shops that sell used gear. You could probably find them cheaper there as they tend to sit on the

shelf. If you ever end up in Raleigh, NC, I know a place that will sell you a very nice GS-1 kit for very cheap. Anyway

good luck on your pursuit.

[david_henderson]

It is the case that you can use Bronica cameras hand-held and make decent pictures provided that the shutter speed is high enough.I do so when I need to. Do not believe though that this means that the results you get hand-held will be the same as you would obtain on a tripod. They won't be, and in reality what you're getting from MF is sharper more detailed slides and prints. The more of this advantage you're prepared to dismiss, the more you should question a move to medium format at all. .

 

I can't get into a long debate on this today, but the world is awash with old used medium format cameras with no manuals and some of which have had a hard life for cameras that were made ( unlike modern high volume dslrs) with the expectation they'd get a service from time to time. The less you pay the older the camera is likely to be and the more use its likely to have had. Its important to get a usable warranty - not just few days for a cursory check when frankly, most people don't know what to check and how. But don't believe that the existence of a warranty means that the equipment has been checked or rectified - indeed the warranty is there to eliminate the need for the seller to check/service/repair, and instead the responsibility to find out whether the camera works ok is effectively transferred to the customer, normally without a manual to help. Which is why you'll see a lot of threads on here along the lines of

 

"Just bought a used xxx, should this be happening? "

 

or " when I press this xx happens, shouldn't it be yyy?

 

or "it leaks/it won't wind film/ the speeds are all askew"

 

and remember, sooner or later the responsibility for fixing the camera will be yours, and that a single repair might well cost what you paid for the body or lens or back. To dissassociate the condition of a camera from what you are being asked to pay for it will, on average, be wrong.

[photo5]

Then there are those cameras that were bought by rich guys who used them once or twice and left them in the closet for 20-50 years! Those are the cameras to buy.

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

Even a camera that's spent decades in a closet will need service. The lubricant oxidize and need to be cleaned out and replaced.

[john_adams20]

I think that at this point, I'm set on the GS-1...I can get one in a BGN condition for $330 with a 100mm lens, or if I go with the 150 F4, then it's a bit more expensive. Nevertheless, I do have to say that it is a bit tempting to compromise and go for a Mamiya M645 PRO with the same included in the package (back, prism, powerdrive). I hate to belabor this topic, but I'm still not ready to hit the confirm button on my keh order.

[warren_williams]

A lot of good responses on an interesting topic so I thought I'd add my two cents. If you are really interested in 6x7 you might take a look at Pentax 67 - great cheap optics, well built and very hand holdable. Weight is a concern for all of these systems, particularly when you have to carry around multiple lenses. You may want to end up with a "project" camera with multiple lenses and accessories and a "walk around " camera. I hve really enjoyed using the Fuji 6x9 rangefinders - the 6X9 proportion is pleasing and the cameras are relatively light and easy to use in the field and focus in dim light for architectrue interiors and street photograpy. A cameera should be fun to use if you are not earning a living with it. I have tried pentax, hasselblad, mamiya 67, horseman, rollie tlr and older Bronica and even an ikonta. I'v trice to love them all but I've ended up with my project/tripod camera being 4x5 and the fuji's to walk around with (and a Nikon dslr for "must get it work" and family trips. I do disagree with the 645 proponents - negative size matters even in less than wall size blow ups - tonal range in B&W is different in even a 4x enlargement.

[john_adams20]

In the above post, I forgot to say that the Mamiya is in EX condition, whereas the Bronica is BGN. But again, a mint condition camera with no bangs and scratches could have been used by a staff of 20 photographers over 20 years in a studio. A single person could have used a camera occasionally, but handled it a bit roughly...