The Darker side of Dealers

[kelly_flanigan1]

When I was buying some spare Nikon F bodies with no finders from KEH in the early 1980's; the buying going price was 49 to 59 bucks each;day in and day out 24/7. I called them up after about 3 purchases; and found they would buy them for no more than 30 buck each. This is without prisms or WL finders; but with the token A screens. <BR><BR>Once one could actually vist theri atlanta store; and see all stuff they had on Shutterbug; and buy it right on the spot.<BR><BR>Many places have no more local camera stores anymore.

[dave_moeller]

There is a local store near me that's trying to keep the used business afloat by buying equipment at about half of what it sells for on eBay, and then turning it over on eBay themselves. Although some may find this seedy, the reality is that they're in business to make money, and I give them credit for finding a way to continue to keep used inventory flowing through the store and keeping the store afloat. Their new camera business is about 80% digital now, as it must be to keep sales up. Other than accessories, they sell very little in the new film camera area. Given the widespread availability of discounted digital camera equipment, the prices these stores are getting for new equipment aren't leaving much room for profit in a brick-and-mortar environment.

 

I've seen people become very upset when the store offers a price for the equipment that the seller feels is insulting. The response from the store sounds flippant, but is actually very fair. "You can sell it yourself on eBay." They don't say this in a condescending way...they actually are trying to help people who want more money for their equipment than the store can give. I've watched them be very upfront about their ability to make money on camera equipment, and I've watched sellers storm out in an absolute rage because they couldn't walk in off of the street and sell their equipment at eBay prices. Although I feel sorry for the people who don't understand the business, it's not because I think they're being ripped off. It's because I think they should have taken the time to research the price of their goods, and realized that the store isn't going to give them the amount of money for their equipment that the store can sell it for. Doing so would be the fastest way to put themselves out of business.

 

Cameras are a poor investment. In the past, it was possible to minimize the impact of that reality by trading up from time to time. Today, you're much better off selling your equipment on eBay and putting the cash into something else, or just keeping what you have and using it. With the extremely quick turnover of digital camera generations, all cameras have lost value on the used market. This is neither a good or bad thing, it's just a thing. The economics of camera equipment have changed dramatically over the past decade, and they aren't going to change back any time soon.

[sl attanapola]

In the UK Jessops which is one of the biggest selles of photographic equipment in the country also does Ebay.So does Canon and many other reputable retailers in hifi equipment.

 

What is bad about that?

[nikos peri]

It seems to me that the last few additions to this thread are missing the point. Naturally, for anyone to expect a business to pay above-normal prices for gear is begging for disappointment. However, in the economics of the camera store, it's not simply whether to buy that Leica or Hassie or Nikon off Joe Blow and at what price. The question of the matter is, is it worth me taking that camera off Joe in exhange for a sale of something else.<p>

There are two possibilities: I take the gear and sell him something else, or I don't take the gear and don't sell him a thing. In my case, I wanted to trade in some stuff for about 35% of the value of a new complete Leica MP with 35/50/90 glass - all new. In exchange for this ability to "trade-up", I have been willing to pay a bit above fair market (Ebay or int'l retailers) for gear. No longer.

[dave_moeller]

I'll challenge the assumption that "the last few additions to this thread are missing the point".

 

You believe that the equipment you want to trade in is worth "about 35% of the value of a new complete Leica MP with 35/50/90 glass - all new".

 

Apparently, the store doesn't believe that. As I said, "Cameras are a poor investment. In the past, it was possible to minimize the impact of that reality by trading up from time to time. Today, you're much better off selling your equipment on eBay and putting the cash into something else, or just keeping what you have and using it."

 

Whether you're trying to sell your equipment for cash or for a reduced price on new equipment, you're asking the person at the store to give you value in return for your equipment. The person with whom you dealt didn't think the equipment you were offering would have that amount of value for the store, and was willing to take the chance of losing your future business by not taking the deal you offered.

 

Perhaps in the pre-eBay days the deal would have been much easier for the store to make, but today the store is in direct competition with any- and everyone who's selling equipment on line. The value of any equipment you walk into a store with is less than the value of the same equipment on eBay (or KEH or whatever barometer you use for pricing), as the store must compete with those prices and still make a profit.

 

You've decided to take your business elsewhere, and that's also a fair decision. But whether you want cash for your equipment or a reduced price on new equipment, you're asking the store to trade value (immediate or potential future) for your equipment. The additional possibility of losing your future business by not taking the deal is a reality that the stores deal with every day. The stores that will survive are the ones who carefully weigh all of the variables and make their decisions accordingly. Did the store you went to do that? I have no idea. But if they're still in business in this economic climate, they've done something right up until this point.

 

The economics of camera sales have not only changed for the stores; they've also changed for the buyers and sellers who walk into the stores. Again, "The economics of camera equipment have changed dramatically over the past decade, and they aren't going to change back any time soon."

[nikos peri]

Again, maybe I didn't make my distinction clear enough. The issue isn't whether I or the store thought my stuff was worth 1000, 2000 or 3000, the issue is that the store would not take it AT ALL, at ANY value, against that purchase. So, no purchase was made, at all. You could argue they thought a two month old Leica MP was worth zero, and zero is a value. A bit of a paradox considering their chosen profession IS to sell Leicas.

[dave_moeller]

Nikos-

 

If the store isn't taking any trade-ins on new equipment, then they have indeed decided that the value of a trade-in is zero to them. Their current business model is not to take trade-ins, so they place no value on trade-ins. It is a strange decision to make, but they've made it. I don't blame you in the least for taking your business elsewhere.

 

My original post applauded those stores that had learned to do business in this day of eBay and KEH...the store you're dealing with probably isn't one of those.

[martin_kalaydjian]

Nikos...

 

Consider this: Anytime you trade in fairly expensive equipment in order to buy something new, the dealer sees no profit until he sells your trade in. His profit could be delayed for months, even years. This is because his profit on the sale of the new item is probably less than the trade in allowance. This might create a serious cashflow problem for the dealer, especially if he already has used stock he can't sell.

 

A friend who owns a car dealership once told me he would be out of business if EVERY buyer had a trade in, because he wouldn't see the cash until he made that second sale.

 

Don't take it personally. Dealers cannot afford to buy things they cannot sell quickly, and still stay in business.

[dan_fromm1]

Martin, car dealers don't hold the cars they take in as trades. They send them straight to auction. The used cars that dealers sell are rarely trades, most are bought at auction.

 

At least some of the camera shops that accept trades send the tradeins to auction (yes, eBay) or to other dealers who sell used equipment in quantity. KEH, for one, used to and may still have a fellow who visited some camera stores every few months. Adorama still has an employee who goes to "camera shows." In fact, before eBay one of camera shows major functions was to bring a quantity of used gear together so that it made sense for, e.g., Adorama, to send a buyer.

 

On another topic, I understand that KEH is getting very choosy these days.

[john falkenstine]

Most of the camera shops in Tucson have died off in the last 10 years. This trend started even before digital cameras, but has accellerated recently. Since I'm not a camera shop owner, I'm not familiar with the economics of Camera store operational models. But I'm sure that places like Best Buy and Circuit city have played a major role in this scene. Photography as we would like to see it has placed itself in a crisis. At the University of Arizona, the Center for Creative photography is treated like an ugly stepchild. (Even the building is deteriorating and needs major repairs)The fact is, that for the majority of folks in the newer generation, film is dead and the equipment that uses film is also dead.

[kelly_flanigan1]

In darkroom equipment the market glut is often worse than cameras. They are more bulky to sell on Ebay; and are often available a garage sales very cheap.<BR><BR> I bought a 135mm F5.6 Mint Componon-S off Ebay; it was only 63 dollars 4 years ago.. I got it for my 4x5 scan PhaseOne back. The lens was 63 with shipping. I called the chap up before mailing off my money order; and asked him if he had the retaining ring; he threw it in the deal for free. In asking if he had any other enlarging lenses; we offered a 50mm f2.8 componon-S for 10 dollars more. Thus I got two nice well respected lenses for 73 dollars; that are for practical purposes really brand new; latest models; with caps; with retaining rings.<BR><BR> The current B&H price new for the 135mm f/5.6 Componon-S Enlarging Lens is Price : $ 449.95; Buy Used $ 179.00. The current price of the Schneider 50mm f/2.8 Componon-S Enlarging Lens - M39 Lens is Price : $ 229.95 dollars. <BR><BR>BOTH the ebay lenses I bought are the current latest models; and could pass as new; only I dont have the boxes. They must have never been used; and have all caps too. <BR><BR>The used 135mm at B&H today is priced at 3 times what I paid for mine used.<BR><BR><BR><BR> I suppose IF some folks here bought the new one for 450 bucks; they would expect a decent trade in at B&H for it. Their used price is 179 bucks for the 135mm; 39.78 percent of list. ie about 60 % off from list. Maybe they buy the used ones from ebay; or as trade ins at 50 to 70 bucks; about what mine was bought for. Thus my 63 dollar 135mm is 63/450 = 0.14 14 percent of new list. <BR><BR>Thus that new Leica body for 3000 bucks might be worth only 420 bucks if sales drop like enlarging lenses. and resold at say 1800 bucks used.

[jukka_vatanen]

Hi: Here in Finland we experience the same. Digital cameras sold now by computer vendors with a mark up profit in 5-10% region. They are pushed to a tough competition with cellphone dealers who offer new NOKIA cameraphone with Carl Zeiss lens and 2-3 mega pictures!

Nokia is now the worlds biggest CAMERA manufacturer! The pictures can be sent directly to your computer via wireless so you never run out of storage space... The situation with Leica is undertandable as Hermes has allowed 2 months to Leica to make a viable plan to make profit... It wont happen. After that it is a question of who will take Leica and will the value drop to zero!