Help with lighting scenario (garbage in, garbage out... but why?)

[jesseb]

<p>(I posted the below in the wrong forum <A HREF= "http://www.photo.net/portraits-and-fashion-photography-

forum/00QQBT" > HERE </A> and so I'm moving the thread here per one of the members suggestions, in

anticipation of anyone's kind expertise on the matter; thanks!) </p>

 

<p>I spent some long hours trying to figure out this problem and desperately need some help/pointers. Here

goes...</p>

 

<p><br />

<B>Equipment</B><br />

Body: Canon 20D<br />

Lens #1: Sigma 24-60 2.8<br />

Lens #2: Canon 17-85IS 4-5.6, with circular polarizer<br />

Light Meter: Sekonic L-358<br />

Lighting: 2x 250ws Opus OPL-K250 monolights kit with 2 imbrellas (outer linen can be removed for diffusion),<br />

barndoor, snoot<br />

Opus specs: <A HREF="http://opusprolighting.com/products/monolights/k_series_monolights.html" >

http://opusprolighting.com/products/monolights/k_series_monolights.html</A><br />

Opus manual: <A HREF="http://opusprolighting.com/downloads/OPL_K_Series_Instruction_Manual.pdf" >

http://opusprolighting.com/downloads/OPL_K_Series_Instruction_Manual.pdf</A></p>

 

<p><br />

<B>Problem & Goal</B><br />

Trying to take some studio pics of home loudspeakers, but the results I am getting back are not desirable. </p>

 

<p>I am (naturally) looking for:<br />

- clarity and sharpness<br />

- overall detail and outlined edges (defining them from my white background paper), including a sharp logo<br />

- as much "uniformity" in terms of of lighting and color through the speaker, top to bottom and sides<br />

- a nice smooth surface (without distracting reflections) at the bottom of the speaker where the glossy area is<br />

(where the logo is)</p>

 

<p><br />

<B>Issue #1 (light meter question)</B> </p>

 

<p>On Sekonic: ISO set to 100, shutter to 1/125 and take a reading. Result I get: f/22 with "U" showing bottom<br />

left. I rotate the wheel to lower my shutter speed and only get out of the "U" (sorry if I'm using the proper<br />

terminoly) when I'm at 1/25 or so.<br />

I take the shot... and exposure is not set correctly. I drop the f-stop to f/11 and now things are looking<br />

better. But no thanks to the light meter (or more specifically, my lack of using it properly, I naturally<br />

assume). So...</p>

 

<p><B>(1)</B> --> Why is it telling me 1/25 to begin with, since this seems obviously wrong? (What am I not

understanding<br />

/ doing wrong?)<br />

<B>(2)</B> --> What do I have to do if I want the Sekonic to give me a reading at f/8 or f/11? </p>

 

<p>I would have thought I could choose the desired f/stop on the Sekonic and it would give me the

corresponding<br />

shutter speed, same as if I were to take ambiant measurement. But I guess that assumption is wrong and the

only<br />

way to lower the f/stop is by changing my lighting/strobe (lowering it or moving it away)?</p>

 

<p>I'm guessing this is basic 101 flash light metering, but having spent a few hours and some google'ing, I still<br />

don't understand 1) and would appreciate confirmation for 2).</p>

 

<p><br />

<B>Issue #2 (lighting question)</B> </p>

 

<p>As mentioned, the result I am getting back is not desirable. I've tried different lighting setups, but I don't<br />

understand why I am getting the following:</p>

 

<p>At f/11 (the highest apparture value I seem to be able to attain with my current lighting - strobes at max - is<br />

at around 1/40, otherwise everything is too dark), I am not getting any of the desired clarity and sharpness. <br />

The front of the speaker, depending on the area, is more focused and clear than towards the end of the speaker.

<br />

Unless I zoom/focus in on the logo, that also does not come out sharp/clear. </p>

 

<p><B>(3)</B> --> Though what I really want is f/22 (but I guess my 2x250w strobes aren't strong enough?), I figure

if

I'm<br />

using f/11, I should still be getting a clear focused shot in all of those areas, no?</p>

 

<p>I am definitely not getting any "uniformity"; I am getting a reflective faded white'ish on the sides of the<br />

speakers as well as on the (flat) top.<br />

I tried different light positioning (more towards the front of the speakers and as low in height - about waist<br />

high - as the tripods would allow) and also tried lighting without diffusion as as well as using the imbrellas...<br />

but all to no avail.</p>

 

<p><B>(4)</B> --> Why can I not get a nice smooth result on the glossy area at the bottom of the speaker where

the logo is?

<br />

Why am I getting "noise" (for a lack of better words) there and everywhere else?</p>

 

<p><br />

In attempt to address the "non-uniform" and reflective white'ish shine on the sides of the speakers I finally put<br />

my 17-85IS lens on to take some test shots with the polarizer on. Without the polarizer, results were pretty<br />

much identical as my 24-60. However, with the circular polarizer on, I was able to take away much of the shine<br />

from the sides of the speakers. By doing so though, I need to lower my f/stop to f/7.1 or so, which I don't like<br />

doing as I'm worried that is not helping with my clarity/sharpness(?). More importantly, I seem to be losing<br />

detail in the darks with the polarizer on and overall, the result still leaves much to be desired.</p>

 

<p>In terms of sharpness, I am also curious as to why my Sigma 24-60 shots are not significantly sharper than

my<br />

Canon 17-85IS (or sharp at all in these shots), as the former lens is typically (always) very nice and sharp,<br />

sometimes too sharp.</p>

 

<p><br />

<B>Here are some of the images I have as examples:</B></p>

 

<p><A HREF= "http://www.pbase.com/jbgimme/image/101280896">

http://www.pbase.com/jbgimme/image/101280896<A/><br />

Sigma 24-60<br />

overall too light, not enough contrast, no clarity or proper detail, especially towards sides and rear of<br />

speaker, no edge detail. Logo isn't sharp enough.</p>

 

<p><A HREF= "http://www.pbase.com/jbgimme/image/101280898" >

http://www.pbase.com/jbgimme/image/101280898<A/> <br />

Sigma 24-60<br />

Color is a bit better, more contrast and detail on certain parts, more edge detail, but too dark in certain parts<br />

and too light in others (sides and top surface again). Logo is a bit sharper.</p>

 

<p><A HREF= "http://www.pbase.com/jbgimme/image/101280899" >

http://www.pbase.com/jbgimme/image/101280899<A/> <br />

Canon 17-85IS<br />

Much the same. Logo sharpness is not amazing, but better and okay I guess.</p>

 

<p><A HREF= "http://www.pbase.com/jbgimme/image/101280900" >

http://www.pbase.com/jbgimme/image/101280900<A/> <br />

Canon 17-85IS and circular polarizer on.<br />

"Best" so far as the polarizer took away the white'ish shine away from the sides and edges look better; but<br />

detail harder to see, top surface still too light and fades and logo isn't sharp enough.</p>

 

<p></p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

over all I''d say your basic problem is where you are putting your lights. With products it isn't a bad idea to start with a large diffuse top light , and bring out front details with either white or silver fill cards. the top lighting will alos take care of the white background as well.

 

Product shots are usually best done, unless you are lookign for acertain effect, wiht longer lenses and more camera to subject distance.

 

 

"(1) --> Why is it telling me 1/25 to begin with, since this seems obviously wrong? (What am I not understanding

/ doing wrong?)"

 

Are you sure the meter is set to read flash? With flash, shutter speed really isn't an issue, so if yo uare using flash, set your camera to manual and set it's shutter speed to your camera's x-sync speed (1/60, 1/125 or 1/250th) .

 

"(2) --> What do I have to do if I want the Sekonic to give me a reading at f/8 or f/11? "

 

decrease the amount of light.

 

"(3) --> Though what I really want is f/22 (but I guess my 2x250w strobes aren't strong enough?), I figure if I'm

using f/11, I should still be getting a clear focused shot in all of those areas, no?"

 

At close distances? Not necessarily.

 

"(4) --> Why can I not get a nice smooth result on the glossy area at the bottom of the speaker where the logo is?

Why am I getting "noise" (for a lack of better words) there and everywhere else?"

 

Because you are not being careful with your lighting. 1st rule of lighting: angle of incidence = angle of reflection.

 

I also don't like the angle you are shooting from: too high!

 

Now take your meter metering with the incident dome pointing towards the camera.

[bob_sunley]

You did pick a difficult subject for starters, black on black is sometimes more difficult that mounted gemstones.

 

To remove the messy shadows from the glass base and opaque feet on the background paper, you will need to support the speakers off the background with hidden stands, or use back illumination thru clear plexiglass under your background paper.

 

To eliminate the refections of the clear base on the plastic panel of the speaker front, you will have to spray the panels with a matt finish, or drop your camera position way down. Tower speakers are often shot from a very low viewpoint.

 

If you are real careful in your lighting setup, you may be able to hide the shadow cast by one speaker behind the other one, otherwise a third light will be needed to almost blowout the background.

 

Forget the polarizer, the detail in the black wood grain is only visible by specular reflection. You need to play a lot with the lighting angles to control reflection. Also having the background further back would help as well.

 

Dropping your camera angle will change the angle of the plane of focus and you will have a better oriented depth of field plane to increase the sharpness at the top and bottom of the speakers.

[garry edwards]

You've been given good advice above and I don't have a lo to add.

 

Basically, a good starting point for a beginner in product lighting is the reverse of portrait lighting. In portrait lighting, you set the key light to get the effect you want and then add a fill light (or reflector) to mitigate the effect of the light, if necessary. With product lighting a good starting point is to set the fill light first, as Ellis suggested, and then add oher lighting as needed to emphasise texture, separate it from the background and so on.

 

Also, bear in mind that lighting is about light placement and light shaping, it's never just about quantity.

 

A good starting point would be to read through the various Lighting Themes, which will give you a basic understanding of light.http://www.photo.net/photography-lighting-equipment-techniques-forum/00BjHh

[chris_graham3]

Jesse,

 

I had problems no unlike what you are experiencing with your speaker shots. I happened upon Zack Arias' web site and he has a tutorial on the subject. Hope this sheds some light (no pun intended) on the subject for you. I included a link to lesson 1 of 5 for you to check out.

 

Cheers...

 

http://www.zarias.com/?p=71

[jesseb]

Guys, before anything, thanks a lot for your responses. This is my first posting at photo.net and though I've

visited for a while and always very much appreciate the information shared on this online community, I'm only

more so impressed by the members (you) and how there really are folk out there ready to take some time in helping

others.

 

Ellis, for the top diffused light... will a strobe high up pointing downwards through an umbrella work? In terms

of being "on top", do you mean simply higher and angled downwards... or do you mean it needs to be literally over

the (center of the) speakers (hoping this is not the case as I have no way to set this up)?

I don't currently have any fill cards, but I'm going to run out and make some this weekend (thanks to

diyphotography.net).

 

Bob, I've heard about spraying panels with a matt finish before, but I don't know much about this. Does doing

this have any visible effect on the product? How do clients usually feel about a photographer doing this on

their produts?

Regarding a third light: I have a 430EX flash... I was planning on buying a wireless trigger and receiver and

then use that as a third light, so that might be a possibility.

Those messy shadow on the glass base... I knew I had to do something about that, those specific results made me

wince. That was going to be my next question, once I got helped and figured out the main lighting problems I'm

having, but I'm happy you brought it up. I'll probably have to inquire more about supporting the speakers with

hidden stands or using back illumination through clear plexiglass once I get my main lighting resolved.

 

Per Ellis' suggestion and yours, I'll be dropping my shooting angle, though I've been asked to provide some

"high" viewpoint angles as well as low viewpoint shots (so will experiment and lower those high ones a bit more).

Dropping the polarizer too, which I figured I'd have to and will be working on my lighting angles.

 

Gary, thanks for the added comments. Interesting what you say about product lighting being the reverse of

portrait lighting. I'll check out that link (and sub-links) you provided. I also just got my order from Amazon

and Chapters today, books like "Light, Science and Magic" - gonna be doing a lot of reading!

 

Chris, cool link. I just skimmed through the tutorial and their site... very nice. That DVD workshop looks

killer - I might not be able to pass on it (budget? what's that again...).