Next step of Leica?

[lukeap69]

Yeah, I'll buy Leica lens for my Canon dSLR if I can afford it even if it is bit pricey than the competition.

[carbon_dragon]

"Many of you have suggested making an "affordable" version of something along the lines of what they already

make.

 

But just where is digital progressing to? I'd suggest that we already are nearing the limits of what's possible,

affordable, and actually desired by the public. There's only so many features you can put into one camera body, too

many and it becomes too cumbersome and too bothersome to actually pick up and use."

 

We could arrive in the next few years (or sooner) at the point where resolution is topping out for a given sensor size.

But there will be other innovations that could still be worth buying, such as dynamic range, low noise, and so on. So

it's not a foregone conclusion that soon the camera manufacturers won't be able to offer us anything worth buying.

 

And one of those things CAN be better user interfaces (consider the success of iPod). The Minolta 600si was a

milestone for SLRs and we have better easier cameras as a result. They will figure out how to decide what functions

to put on a DSLR (or a DRangefinder) and which ones not to, and how to design the interface, and maybe they'll do a

better one.

 

And then there's the "programmed obsolescence" of connection standards and digital film standards and file formats

that would cause a digital camera to become unusable long before the actual parts wear out. Which is why I think

Leica's better off with a well made Panasonic body rather than spending the extra money to make a metal body that

will long outlast the camera's useability.

[jeff_s]

I may not agree with all of Leica's decisions, but the M8 is real and it's here. No one else has had the guts to do such a

thing except for Epson. As for the prices, just look at the USA->Euro exchange rates over the years: You can thank the

current occupant of the White House for that.

[marc_bergman1]

"He says the pilots are really complaining about the increasing complexity of the aircraft systems and how overloaded they are, even those with a weapons officer in back."

 

They were saying the same thing back in the Vietnam era. They would just start turning off systems. I am an old Air Force Avionics Tech.

 

I use a modern DSLR along with older cameras. I use it much the same as my older cameras. It has an OFF/On switch. It has a function switch. It has an ISO switch. I use the Ron Propeil system. I set it and I forget it. Don't let the camera's automation take control.

[davebell]

Jeff S, they're very expensive everywhere in the world. Try buy one in the UK and you'll see what I mean. You guys over in the US have it good when it comes to prices of camera gear, which I think is even more true considering income and cost of living.

[anthony_brookes5]

Surely the problem is that cameras are doomed - not just Leica. Phones are doing almost everything now so why buy a camera. It's probably the end of Nikon and Canon and Leica et al. The only survivor in my view will be enthusiasts using film, but I don't know for how long. It seems to me that top quality film cameras have a future in amatuer hands - and there's always the collectors propping up the market.

[robert gordon]

I've been using my Leica M2 since 1970 and it's still going strong. Have handled an M* several times but won't be buying a digital M until the shutter noise is greatly reduced. One way to reduce the cost of a Leica M is to eliminate the LCD. Shoot only RAW, add auto ISO and most Leica shooters would be good to go. Controls could/should all be analog. If you really need to see your images before uploading them to your computer, you could use a pocket size hard drive with a 3-4 inch LCD. When travelling, I often shoot 4-6 rolls of film a day, process them when I get home, make contacts several weeks later, make enlargement weeks or months later, and exhibit the prints 6-12 months later. Tell me why I need to chimp every frame or even every hour.

[markci]

Extremely complex devices can be made intuitive (e.g. the iPhone) or not (e.g. the #^&%@^ Windows Mobile phone my company pawned off on me). If a device's capabilities are intrusive it's simply a case of that particular product being badly designed.

[doug herr]

Robert Gordon wrote: "<I>Tell me why I need to chimp every frame or even every hour.</I>"

<P>

To be sure that you haven't lost detail in the important highlights.

[markci]

The LCD probably adds 20 dollars to the price of the camera.

[markci]

<i>Surely the problem is that cameras are doomed - not just Leica. Phones are doing almost everything now so why

buy a camera.</i>

<p>

Twaddle. Phones take crappy photos, as the laws of physics say they must. The people who used to buy

disposable cameras will use cell phones, which has nothing to do with the SLR market.

[anthony_brookes5]

Mark - Freinds and family are using their digital cameras for the last time. They have acceptable pictures from their phones/Hps. Of course some will want better pictures - larger pictures - but these can be printed by any home computer.

[aplumpton]

Grumble, grumble, grumble.

 

 

The Leica M8 is to my mind a really great camera, if you ignore the shutter noise (not all that important). It may be

improved with a better sensor when that becomes practical. The lenses will eventually be improved for digital capture,

but this not uniquely a Leica challenge.

 

 

For the price it is fine. For highest quality you have to go to MF digital and that is very much more expensive.

 

 

Stop grumbling, make pictures and get the best from a unique image-making machine.

[el_fang]

<i>One way to reduce the cost of a Leica M is to eliminate the LCD.</i>

<p>I'm sure you'll find great camaraderie amongst members of Leica's current leadership - especially the one with

a woody for baseplates.</p>

<p>No, the way to reduce the cost of a Leica M is to a) have it competently designed, manufactured and QCed by

people who know what they're doing, for example by Panasonic in Japan; and b) change Leica's business model from

dependent on selling a few to the very wealthy (or stupid) to selling as many as possible to new photographers

entering the hobby or profession who want a quiet, quality, reliable alternative to the dSLR. They went in the

right direction with the relatively affordable but still high quality Summarit lens line. Time to put the

remaining foot in the water.</p>

<p>Leica's forte is not electronics. Never has been, likely never will be. Instead of allowing arrogance, vanity

and pride to endanger the survival of the company, they should stick with what they know (optics) and let the

professionals (their existing Japanese business partners) worry about the rest.</p>

[jose_angel]

I`m with Josh. The only thing all Nikons have in common is the F mount. Why a digital Leica must fit into the M3

box? Nobody become depressed because the D3 doesn`t look like a F3.

 

I`m owner of Leica lenses and cameras. I didn`t bought a M8 for two reasons: 1. So expensive, and 2. Sensor issues

(crop factor, need of filters, etc.)

 

I`m willing to pay even $3000 for a 12Mp FF quality sensor with no clumsy issues like the need of filters. It could be

the M9. Why not?

[jose_angel]

Ok, I can live with the filters... but not without a FF sensor and a price over $3000.

[el_fang]

<i>The Leica M8 is to my mind a really great camera, if you ignore the shutter noise (not all that important).</i>

 

<p>Maybe not to you. But it's about 25% of the reason why most people like to use Leica Ms, the remaining

quarters being the relatively small size, the rangefinder viewing system, and access to the M lens lineup. Maybe

heritage and vanity factor in there somehow but those aren't nearly as important as the others to most real

photographers. For five grand (body alone) you can bet your ass I want the whole pie. But then the problems with

the M8 go way beyond shutter noise, don't they?</p>

 

<p><i>For the price it is fine.</i></p>

 

<p>No, it isn't. Not when you can get a superior product for less than 1/3 the price. I just bought a USA

warrantied, brand new in box Canon 5D a month ago. After instant $300 rebate, it was $1899 at the usual big

retailers. I found it from a fleaBay retailer for $1799, free shipping, because it was being split from a kit

(24-105/4L). And then because I used the new Live.com search promotion with the Microsoft discount in conjunction

with PayPal's Buy It Now, I'll be getting $250 cash back in 30 days, which brings the total price paid to $1550.</p>

 

<p><b><u>$1550.</u></b></p>

 

<p>For a full-frame, 12.8MP body that gets me access to some of the finest AF lenses currently made,

warrantied by a company with a fully trained and stocked repair presence in this country (in fact Canon Irvine is

about a 45 minute drive from where I live). And you're paying $5000 for what? A 1.3x crop body with questionable

support (last I heard, Leica Germany is the only place to have any substantial M8 repair done), questionable

reliability and stupid design issues. On top of that, you get to shell out $100 for an IR blocking filter for

each lens you own. Good deal, yeh?</p>

 

<p>$1550. $5000. You'd have to be either Forrest Gump retarded to not be able to figure this one out, or Bill

Gates rich to not care.</p>

 

<p><i>For highest quality you have to go to MF digital and that is very much more expensive.</i></p>

<p>We're not asking for the highest quality. We are asking for a basic level of quality and reliability

comparable to <b>entry level</b> Japanese dSLRs. The Leica digital rangefinder doesn't have to beat the Nikon D3.

If it had the image quality and reliability of my old Nikon D70 I'd be happy - and that sucker was only $1K new

back in the day.</p>

 

 

<p><i>and get the best from a unique image-making machine.</i></p>

<p>Oh, it's unique, all right. No argument from me there.</p>

[ron_breeze2]

The end of Leica has been prophesied since the M5. They're still here, they're still making good cameras, including the M8, and excellent optics.

This is the doom and gloom forum so go open a window and let in some fresh air, take a deep breath and go out and take some photographs

with what ever you have.

[35mmdelux]

The M8 is for computer operators and for those wearing pinky rings.

[orvillerobertson]

It's really difficult predicting where cameras will go in the future. I know one thing must happen. In digital cameras the interface

has got to be improved to the point that amateurs and professionals don't have such a steep inital learning curve. I get asked all

the time to "tell me how I did this to it, and how do i get out of this." I remember recently there was one autofocus (not sure it was

digital) that had an emergeency button you could press to return it back to the factory defaults no matter how you had screwed

up the settings. I'm a real techno nerd, but when it comes to cameras I'm all in favor of ruggedness and simplicity. I don't want to

read a manual for the first 6 months of use. I really wish some ex-Apple interface designer would create a camera OS that the

majors would adapt that would encourage photographers to explore their camera's amazing capability without intimidation. Some

folks will never understand what's the big deal as they flip their way through difficult systems, while most others basically leave

these machines on one setting for fear of "mucking up the works." That's the point. Technology is supposed to help and not

hinder the ordinary person. It is not designed only to empower the technocrat. If somehow Leica would get out of their current

mind set and innovate like Apple and make the complex down to earth, people would pay the higher prices for their so-called

superior German engineering.

[doug herr]

Perhaps Fang is unaware that people who own and use both the Canon EOS 5D and the Leica M8 almost always prefer

the image quality of the M8:

<P>

<A HREF="http://leica-users.org/v37/msg07609.html">George Lottermoser</A>

<BR>

<A HREF="http://leica-users.org/v37/msg07623.html">Henning Wulff</A>

<BR>

<A HREF="http://leica-users.org/v37/msg07709.html">Tina Manley</A>

[ray .]

<i>The inherent limitations of the viewfinder does not help to create any new customer demands.</i><p>And the bottom

plate? Those are the problems of the M8? For a few years before its release all people on this

forum were begging for was the same M body with that beautiful viewfinder and a digital sensor. Now they've got it, but the problem isn't

the basic body

design, it's the price, reliability, and mediocre high ISO performance, not the bottom plate or viewfinder.<p>Because of those issues I

wouldn't

buy one, but give it some credit, at least it still beats Canon or Nikon dslr's for compactness and sweet smooth manual focusing lenses. I

think

they'll fix

the performance issues; unfortunately I can't see the price ever being reasonable.

[ray .]

Orville, if I can make my way through modern digital camera interface, most

people should be able to. Tend to agree with Jeff- you set it and forget it, but the options are there if you find it useful to

change them... although I will admit, without a manual handy it has taken me a few minutes a couple times to figure out how to get my

5D's self

timer off after accidentally setting it. But I hate my cellphone interface more.. ;)

[Spearhead]

<i>In digital cameras the interface has got to be improved to the point that amateurs and professionals don't have such a steep inital learning curve.</i><p>My wife uses a camera with five minutes of training. My son taught himself to use a digital camera with no manual. Everyone I know shooting actually goes out and shoots, rather than thinking there is a steep learning curve. <p><i>I don't want to read a manual for the first 6 months of use. </i><p>I read the manual for my 1DMk3 for all of two hours. It didn't seem too hard for me.

[ray .]

snark alert