My pricing - Question about pricing from newcomer

[dustin_hatcher]

Hello All,

 

I'm new to posting here (although I've lurked quite a bit). I thought I'd come out and introduce

myself. I'm Dustin and I'm looking into getting into wedding photography. I'm a full time IT tech

by day and have always been a photography enthusiast since I was young.

 

I was turned on to doing [paid] wedding photography when several people mentioned to me I

should charge to do weddings. I love to photograph people and I think weddings are generally

fun because everyone is usually in that happy go lucky but tossed with a side of chaos mood. It

tends to make quality moments for the camera. :)

 

I've officially shot 2 weddings in my life. 1 when I was about 15 and taking photography in high

school and my Mom took photography at the local community center. She [Mom] was asked by

a co-worker to photograph her daughter's wedding because they had no money for a "real"

photographer. So we did it and the pictures turned out quite well and they were happy with it.

I'm sorry to say unfortunately I was young and just handed over the negatives [wish I'd kept

them now darnit heh].

 

The other wedding I shot was a couple years ago for a friend covering as a backup photographer

for his cousin who was doing the main photography on Leica equipment. My buddy asked me to

cover with digital so they could upload stuff to the web right away for family & friends who

couldn't attend.

 

Anyways, not to make this post much longer than it really has to be, I've been trying to go about

all this very methodically and slooowly. My wife and I have been putting together contracts, our

website and trying to add to our portfolio. We pretty much have everything in place including our

pricing packages... which is what brings me to this post (thanks to all those still reading :) ).

 

I crossed over another post here about someone asking if they're seeing the price of wedding

photography drop due to an influx of all us newbies. I was recently told by another person that

our prices were a bit high for wedding photography and I wanted to get some of the more

experienced people here to take a look and tell me what I should do to adjust our packages.

Following is the link to our website where all the pricing packages can be seen and small amount

of our portfolio for those who are curious.

 

www.truebeautyphotography.com

 

Please let me know what you think in terms of pricing (and for all those who don't think I should

be charging a dime because I didn't go to school for this, please keep out. I didn't go to school

for what I do now professionally for IT and now I'm pretty highly sought after for what I do

because I do it well, so I don't buy the argument that if you didn't go to school for this you

shouldn't charge).

 

 

Thanks again for all those contributing constructive criticism!

 

-Dustin

[surfidaho]

Howdy!

 

I didn't go to school for this either, and I share your opinion that it's not really necessary. But I do have one question:

 

Were you highly sought after in IT after only two troubleshooting experiences?

 

I suspect not. I suspect you relied heavily on mentors and coworkers to gain the experience that you are now highly sought after for. Therefore, even though you don't want to hear it, I would strongly suggest that you tag along with an established pro as a second shooter for a few weddings before you strike out on your own.

 

You'll still make some money. Not as much as you would make doing a wedding on your own, but at least you won't have to give it all back if you make a bad mistake. ;^<)>

 

Even more important than pricing is a limited liability clause in your contract. The PPA contract has this very elaborate "act of God" paragraph. It's very flowery and legal, but the gist of it is that you are never liable for more than the cash value of the clients original order. That way you cannot be sued for tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars for failing to deliver good photos.

 

You should also carry business liability insurance, in case someone trips over a tripod or light stand.

 

Tuppence,

 

Paulsky

[dustin_hatcher]

Thanks for the reply Paulsky! To answer your question, definitely not! It did take

me quite some time to get where I'm at today. Which is frankly, why, I'm seeking

the advice of everyone here.

 

To share my experience a little bit with the "find a pro to tag along with" commentary

(that I no doubtedly knew was coming) I have TRIED AND TRIED to find a pro to tag

along with. I've offered mine and my wife's services to help with menial (and the not

so beautiful side of photography, such as paperwork, filing, moving equipment

around) and not a one of them has wanted anything to do with it. The most

response I've received was "here come take my next $300 work shop!" So by all

means, if there are some pro's you know of in the bay area who would enjoy the help

my wife and I can lend on the weekends or the evenings, please let us know! We've

been looking :)

 

In regards to the contract; I think we have a pretty solid one. I stumbled across a

really good one that was posted here I believe by one Simon Revill that I used a lot

from as well as from the book written by Tad Crawford.

 

So I believe this is the part of my contract that you are talking about...

 

"23. FAILURE TO PERFORM: If TRUE BEAUTY PHOTOGRAPHY cannot perform

this Agreement due to a fire or other casualty, strike, act of God or nature, or other

cause beyond the control of the parties, or due to Photographerﾒs illness, then TRUE

BEAUTY PHOTOGRAPHY shall return the retainer to THE CLIENT but shall have

no further liability with respect to the Agreement. This limitation on liability shall

also apply in the event that the photographic materials are damaged in processing,

lost through camera or equipment malfunction, lost in the mail, or otherwise lost or

damaged without fault on the part of TRUE BEAUTY PHOTOGRAPHY. In the event

TRUE BEAUTY PHOTOGRAPHY fails to perform for any other reason, TRUE

BEAUTY PHOTOGRAPHY shall not be liable for any amount in excess of the retail

value of THE CLIENTﾒS order. "

 

And yes, we're going about getting quotes for business liability insurance as well as

equipment insurance in case anything is broken, stolen or other wise ruined. :)

[surfidaho]

Howdy Dustin!

 

Have you tried posting in this forum as "Second Photographer Available, Bay Area"?

 

Another option is to both search AND post under both services AND gigs in

craigslist.org. That's where I found my last second photographer.

 

Or you could just drive twelve hours to Boise, and work with me. ;^<)>

 

Regarding insurance: If you pay a very low monthly fee for advertising on

wedj.com, they offer both business liability insurance as well as equipment

insurance for exceptionally low rates. I find a lot of leads through wedj.com,

and they have a Gigbuilder management system that automatically tracks my

availability and lets customers know if I am booked or not, and if I'm

available, it asks for Name, Phone Number, E-mail, etc. It's pretty easy to set

up. If you want to see how it works, click on my name, go to my web page, and

select "Availablity".

 

Finally, you nailed the liability paragraph to a "T". I have the very same one

in my contract.

 

Good Luck!

 

Paulsky

[tana_d.]

I'm sorry, but personally I'd be a very wary of hiring someone who has only shot 2 weddings, one of which was shot at age 15, the other of which you were a back up shooter. For the prices on your website I would expect to get someone with more experience, who has at least shot a handful of weddings, and recent ones at that.

 

Are you only going to shoot weddings? Why all the other galleries if they're empty (except the children's section)? The children's gallery looked like all snapshots. So sorry to be blunt, but the distracting backgrounds and flash make them look like snaps.

 

I'm a little concerned that you have barely shot any weddings and are starting a business already. It does sound like you're prepared business wise, but I'm worried about image quality. I'd want to get a little more experience before hanging out a shingle.

 

BTW, I'd be willing to bet most of us here are self taught. I am.

[dustin_hatcher]

Paul thanks again for the response! I'm definitely going to check out that wedj.com

place. Oh and yes have checked out craigslist and continue to do so on a regular

basis. The main problem we run into is the second photographer is generally

required to be Canon and equipped and we're Nikon users heh :)

 

Tana, definitely thanks for the input. To answer, no we're not only going to shoot

weddings, we're hoping to do a lot of weddings, but here in the bay area we noticed

photographers are really branching out with being able to do portrait work, kids work,

events etc. So we're in the process of adding content to those areas. :)

 

Re: The kids shots. I think there's a bit of a style coming through where people sort

of want that look as opposed to traditional studio quality pictures. We've seen A

LOT of children photography of a similar nature that has been done outside at

different locations or at the parents homes where the background is anything but a

studio velvet back drop. Much like wedding photography has changed from medium

format and formally posed brides and grooms to a photojournalistic style, I think

children's photography is experiencing a shift right now as well to get more of a

natural look with them. I definitely wouldn't consider those snap shot quality (but

then again I'm biased :) ) as I have seen a lot of snap shots and they look nothing

like that. But to each their own I say. As photographers we're hired because of our

style of images. :)

[weddingbelles]

Okay, Dustin Dustin Dustin. My dear, I am verily afraid that you might be in over

your head with these prices. I work in LA and KC, and I understand that the prices

are higher in Cali, yet and still - you are trying to charge way way way too much for

such a novice shooter. Your lighting is nowhere near spot on, and I work almost

exclusively with natural light until there literally isn't anymore to be had. Don't get me

wrong, your pics are not bad at all, they are fine for a second shooter, but I

personally don't think you are ready to be a primary shooter, especially since you

don't have a second shooter in any of your packages to cover your behind in case

you miss something.

 

When I first started I couldn't find a photog to tag along with either, by the way I am

entirely self taught (including books, tapes, etc. but no formal training). So I used

my networking groups to tell them what I was offering, and did many many craigs

list stock shoots with bridal party people until I was ready. Even then I was charging

in the $500 to $750 range for me and a second photographer with more experience

than I (in case I needed help or missed something). I am just now getting into the

higher range. My packages go from $1500 to $6800 and up for destination weddings.

 

I really suggest you think harder about this. I know you are so sure that you can do

it, but realize that no matter how much you explain that you have only shot 2

weddings - the bride and groom are going to expect a professional if they are paying

for one. If you miss a major moment, or the camera dies, or you simply don't know

how to get it in the lighting/circumstance/limitaions whoa!

 

Please remember and take into major consideration that this is their day, and if you

don't get it or get it wrong, there are no "do-overs".

[dustin_hatcher]

Kenzi, definitely appreciate the comment. My wife and I have truly been thinking

about the prices really do seem a bit high for us being so new to this. We are

actually also scouting Craigslist to find jobs [wedding] where people would just like a

photographer to show up for 2-4 hours and shoot mostly the reception or just the

ceremony so that we can definitely add to our experience levels and put more

content out there.

 

My wife does most of the second shooting (although she is not actually as

experienced as me even, she is learning quickly). Don't get me wrong either. I have

covered more events, but they don't pertain to weddings. Some sports events,

some publicity events that the company she works for uses.

 

Primarily we don't advertise 2 shooters because if something were to happen where

one of us would need to attend a family emergency then that person can go and

we're still ok "contractually." Although, if that were the case I would still try to find a

2nd shooter to help me/her out. The reality is though that the majority of the time

there WILL be 2 shooters working the wedding, just in case.

 

The other thing to note is that with our wedding packages we wanted to offer a bit of

some high quality things like albums and prints, so we're working on calculating the

costs of those into the package that the bride and groom can purchase as one big

thing. What we're effectively trying to determine I guess is how much profit we

should be looking to make after the album, prints et all is done and paid for.

 

Once again, thanks so much for all the help everyone. It's definitely very

informative and like I said, we're really trying to go about this slowly and

methodically before "diving right in."

[tana_d.]

Dustin, I've been a child photographer for 4 yrs now. I remember thinking some of my earlier work was so wonderful, but now that I look back on it I cringe.

 

The elements that make those kid photos look like snaps are the flat flash, the clothing, and the composition. Natural is definitely a style, check out Audrey Woulard's work. She is an all natural light, candid children's photographer (http://www.alwphotography.com/). Although her work is casual and candid, it's technically very very good as well. As a photographer, you need to ask yourself, am I producing photos that are portrait quality? Am I producing work that the average consumer with a DSLR can't produce? (And everyone has one these days, even my clients.) As a parent looking at your kid photos, I'd decline to hire you. Those are photos that my friends and family capture with their point and shoot. Again, sorry to be blunt, but wait till you get a disappointed parent. That's really going to hurt (been there done that).

 

I applaud your enthusiasm and drive, and your research into business. I would encourage you to slow down and develop the technical and artistic side of photography. If you'd like some resources on developing the photography side, whether wedding or portraits, email me.

[astrid_garcia]

I have to agree with some of the other opinions on the board. Your prices listed

seem too high for the quality, creativity, technical expertise (as in white

balance and exposure balance) use of light and composition of your portfolio.

Now, I am TOTALLY NOT saying you won't get there, I'm just saying that the work

doesn't match the prices (for example the Platinum pricing) right now.

 

While you do have some nice shots, the consistency from shot to shot isn't

there. And with the kids section, some do look like snapshots and some don't.

While it's true that across the country the black velvet backdrop look has

totally gone out of style (a long time ago), your images don't use light well,

almost all of them have identical crops and angles (like straight on dead

center) and some of the poses are not flattering. Lifestyle portraiture is very

much in style right now yes, but you have to have solid control over the scene,

the light AND be able to connect to the subjects (so they look and feel natural

in front of the camera) in order to take the image out of the realm of a snap

shot and into the realm of a true portrait.

 

So to answer your original question: in my opinion yes, the prices seem too

high. However, If I were a bride, I would not book you based on the portfolio

first and price second. It's not so much that you only have two weddings to show

(I myself started with only one wedding on my site) but it's the fact that the

quality of the images are not in line with the prices. That discrepancy bothers

me and would signal a red flag.

 

Hope this helps and I wish you all the best in your business,

Astrid

[dustin_hatcher]

Great info guys! I definitely do realize that the shots can have improvements and I am

continually working on that. Tana you will have an email coming your way shortly. :)

 

My wife and I going to be re-doing the prices over the weekend and updating the web

site to hopefully something a little more reasonable based for our skill set.

 

Again thanks all so much for the help!

[William Michael]

> Please let me know what you think in terms of pricing <

 

There is a basic difference in that there are two types of product on offer

 

The Platinum and Gold are more service and post production based, the Silver and

Bronze seem to be based upon a shoot; burn; and `see you latter`, business

model.

 

Taking each pair and my analysis of YOUR costs to the SELLING PRICE:

 

The Platinum is price lower than the Gold. But the Bronze is priced substantially

lower than the Silver.

 

So, considering there are really two types of product you offer, you pricing,

however it was calculated, has placed you in a very silly position, IMO.

 

If we make an educated guess that more of folk interested in a budget cover will

most likely choose the Bronze and less likely to be up sold: your pricing bias is

flawed comparing these two.

 

If we make an educated guess that the high end client will, either choose the

Platinum, or be more available to be up sold to it: noting the two key selling

propositions being Engagement Session and whole Wedding Coverage (8hrs vs.

6hrs): your pricing bias is flawed comparing these two

 

Moreover, if we take into account the public announcement you are noviciate, and

the general thrust of the comments regarding the actual dollar price attached

thereto: it is likely that you will find more clients wanting the Bronze (perhaps only

initially), and more importantly, you most likely will accept as many Bronze clients

as possible (also perhaps only initially).

 

***

 

So, the bottom line really depends upon the METHOD by which you came to

these four prices, because I can derive NO consistency between the four.

 

And, then it depends upon which of those broken down prices structures you can

actually sustain.

 

If you have calculated your embryo business can sustain regular purchases of the

Bronze, for example, the next 6 to 12 months, then your pricing structure whilst

internally flawed IMO, is sufficient and will meet your needs.

 

If however you have premised the pricing structure upon `Most people will go for

the middle of the road` theory and / or you think that you will be predominately

selling the Silver or the Gold: and you NEED the sales based on the Silver and

Gold pricing: you are in big trouble, IMO.

 

A Cursusry glance and quick mental arithmetic:

 

1. Your Bronze is pointless at that price, especially if you ever want to aspire

selling the Platinum, or Gold, and I would seriously question the viability of most

sole trader / 2nd businesses, if they were to sell predominately Bronze: you`d be

better to work as an Assistant Photographer for a Reputable Lead, IMO.

 

2. The Silver is a maybe, only because it is offers a different product and is priced

the highest of all four: though I do think down board, if you stick with it you will

need to decide what type of business you actually wish to be in.

 

Silver is certainly the one to keep, and base the other packages on, IF you want to

build that type of business which is shoot burn and see you later . . . in which

case the prices of Gold and Platinum should be increased. Provided of cause

Silver has been premised on your COSTS

 

3. If you envisage the Gold is where most clients will be, (in the beginning), and if

you really aspire to selling the Gold and the Platinum, and if the pricing of the Gold

has been structured upon sound accounting principle and robust local investigation

regarding YOUR COSTS, then Gold is the base point around which the other

packages should be restructured, applying those sound and robust COST drivers.

 

4 But if the Gold`s price is correctly calculated, then that leaves you losing

substantially, every time you up sell to the Platinum, which is too low: on the other

hand if Gold is OK then, in the beginning, Silver is pretty good too.

 

The question objectively, it is all relative: and I can see no relativity based on

accounting or business principles between the four prices, hence I conclude none

were used: the individual $ amount of each is irrelevant if the question is answered

objectively.

 

The question subjectively, IMO, you are pushing it uphill to justify a client paying

over three grand based on the total offer (lack of it) presented at your Web site.

Disregarding a few technical flaws in some of the images you present, the

package of the Web site does NOT reinforce: experience, experise, breadth and

range of styles and skills.

 

So regardless of a client nit picking the images, when compared to other offers at

3 grand, your does not cut it, the portfolio is not even finished, as I understand it.

 

So because you are way overpriced at $3000 for what the client sees at the

website, mate, you have just lost the client and you won`t sell many bronze, either.

 

I note the tag on you question, I giggled at it.

 

Full discloser: I went to Photography School, twice! A very sought after school:

50% failure rate first semester exam, pass mark set at 75%, . . . miss a class. . .

you fail.

 

I have got two bits of paper too! I didn`t use either bits of to answer this question, I

bring no bias there. You can learn photography out of a book if you like, not my

suggestion as the best way, but I don`t mind, and I am not biased against you

should you choose so to do.

 

WW

 

PS: I went to a business school too.

 

[dave_shilling__sacramento_]

Being honest: I dont think your portfolio represents work that someone would pay for at this point. If you are just asking about pricing structure, I would say that you have too many packages. I would stick to three max, and just offer things a la carte if needed.

 

IF you are asking whether your prices are appropriate for your skill level in the market you work in.... I would suggest making a more direct correlation between your pricing and what you bring to the table, and use craigslist as a barometer since this should be your market segment.

 

I have honestly seen more experienced photographers with a better product charge less than your highest package.

 

Your portfolio has blurry photos, harsh shadows, poor editing and vignetting technique, and 13 out of 16 photos featuring a human had the top of somebodys head missing, possibly due to using the same focal length for most of the photos.

 

Have you thought about doing free weddings for awhile to get more experience? I think you would benefit from this greatly if you choose not to or are unable to second-shoot.

 

I apologize for turning it into a unrequested photo critique, but I think its relative to your pricing.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

I've got many of the same concerns as noted above. I'm wondering what you're doing in the way of albums relative to your pricing. There a huge range of quality out there and many people could be offerring: 1. Cheap 200 (4x6) images in a Walmart album, 2. Cheap internet album book like mypublisher/shutterfly, or 3. High quality professional flush-mount or mat albums. The price point difference of these can easily be well over $1000 alone.

 

At this point, I would suggest that you look to network with local area pros.......consider joining WPPI and/or PPA. There's also a wealth of seminars and training DVDs available. You might want to start here: http://www.photovisionvideo.com/

 

Good luck.

[jo_dinning]

Hi Dustin, I've visited your site to see your wedding photography and your pricing, since that is what you are asking about here.

 

Pricing depends on many things, including your area market, reputation and experience, as well as the quality of products that are being offered, and clearly different photographers will price for different markets - so there isn't one easy answer in that respect.

 

Nevertheless, I think your pricing is expensive for what you are offering - but given that your experience is also very limited (and I think this shows in your portfolio shots) I think you are overpriced.

 

I agree with what Dave said - you should be doing more of these without charge at the moment, and building up your skills and portfolio that way. Contact your local marriage registration office and put up a card offering a free print in exchange for the opportunity to build your portfolio. You will get calls and offers this way.

 

The reason for my opinion is because your portfolio, as well as being limited, also has basic errors regarding exposure (both underexposure as well as blown out highlights), blurring, poor toning, and lacks variety in field of view. Around a third of your shots are of objects rather than people, there are virtually no wider shots showing guests, and I suspect that this is probably because you don't have these at the moment.

 

No problem - we all have to start somewhere - but that means improving your skills and experience before letting yourself loose on a bride's big day!

 

This is nothing to do with whether you went to school or not - you'll notice that most photographers who have qualifications don't put them after their name. There's a reason for this: most clients don't care about your qualification, but are rather more interested in your portfolio as a reflection of your work, combined with your knowledge of the local venues, and your experience dealing with weddings and the people attending them.

 

And just because you managed success in your main career without a qualification is a strange reason to shun the opportunity with this one.

 

I think many people benefit from attending a course (even just a nightclass), for as well as gaining insight on how to improve their photography, it's a great chance to meet others who have similar intentions and build up valuable relationships as you go along. You will get plenty of honest feedback from fellow students, and have the chance to look critically at the work of others.

 

The bottom line is - IMO, the quality of what you are offering, combined with your limited experience, is not good enough to be charging for at the moment - and certainly not the prices you have in mind.

 

This opinion is quite frank I know, but you did ask, and I hope you will take the time to improve your skills. The fact that you have started to think about this as a business is fine, and I like your website. Just make sure that the photography does it all justice.

[jeffrey_blake_adams]

Pricing seems about ave from what I see folks with work similar to yours.

 

The thing about pricing is; you need to KNOW what you MUST charge to cover ALL expenses, to be worth giving up your weekends, and to provide for a secure continuity for your clients. Biz Plan is a must.

 

A few thoughts;

The DVD w UnProc images?

I would never want unprocessed images of mine floating around. I want every image I produce to represent the best of what I do.

 

You mention albums but not the types or sizes, it helps brides to know what they get and how many images will be in them.

 

You will enjoy your work more after you master posing and fill flash. Once you know proper posing, you can shoot PJ style but still capture images that flatter the subject.

 

I agree school is NOT required, (only for industry contacts if shooting commercial) you IT work shuld provide enough referrals, many of the pro wedding shooters have your same background. However, WPPI and PPA will help. FInd a menor and apprentice. What you leanr about biz, posing and lighting will save you thousands on wasted gear and software tryingto fix flat, or improperly posed images. J

[annealmasy]

I believe there is a very fine line between charging what you need to run a business, and charging what you're worth. Sometimes what you're worth exceeds what you need; sometimes what you need actually exceeds what you're worth! (That's when you better have a second job to fill in the gaps!)

 

I, for one, like the idea of shooting weddings for free (or, if you're film, for cost), until you have a better handle on how to create consistent, quality images. I know a lot of people think it's absurd to EVER work for free, but truly it's no different from what I did in school while building my portfolio. I would find some poor schmuck would would agree to model for me in exchange for prints, then I would take some not-very-good photos of that person and learn a TON in the process. While in school, I shot individuals and families free of charge, and even shot a free wedding. (I began charging a small fee for weddings to cover the cost of film at some point, since the school didn't include that much film for an assignment.)

 

I think you should approach it as though you are a student. You can TELL people, "I am a student photographer, willing to photograph your wedding for $0 to gain experience."

 

You'd be ahead of the game because you have the contracts to protect you, and you would be relatively off the hook, so to speak, for any newbie errors because you're also charging nothing.

 

Bottom line, experience is everything. I made so many silly mistakes early on that taught me SO much. I think you really have to have about 10-20 weddings under your belt before you have a solid feel for the way weddings work, and what you need to do to "work weddings".

 

Give yourself a little more time and space to grow and learn photographically. You will be so grateful for the experience later on, and your clients will be much happier when they've paid someone who can truly deliver.

 

Good luck!

[bill_clark___minnetonka_mi]

Hi Dustin!

 

Let me give you some history about me and see if you could pick up on a few

kernals of wisdom that could help you.

 

I just turned 60 and I began my photography journey starting in the mid-1950's. I

had some formal education, then spent 30 plus years as a sales rep, all the while

with the photography bug nibbling at me every so often. I even received the luxury

of having some of my friends as well as family do some photography for them during

this time. Fun! Lots of smiles!

 

In 2001 I joined Toastmasters, giving several speeches on photography, of course,

using my outstanding pictures of trees and bridges and a smattering of people

photographs, supplying me with plenty of visual aids for my speeches.

 

The stars were converging on my soul, two occurrences, a family member whose

wedding I took asked me to do their sons wedding and a fellow Toastmaster wanted

to hire me for their wedding.

 

I decided to retire from my sales job and take up photography as a profession, full

time career change for me. I joined the PPA and met someone who would mentor

me and serve as my coach. My wife & I spent time with him. I took several of his

5-7 day workshops. We became friends. He would always say, "I'm learning as

much as you!."

 

Photography is a life long learning journey. I suggest to get the basics down relative

to people photography. Find someone whose style of photography is one that you'd

like to aspire to. Then stick with s/he. Take their workshops, this really helps from

several vantage points. Get to know this person and ask if they would mentor you.

 

How to meet someone? Join the PPA and/or WPPI and attend their conventions.

Photographers are featured in their monthly publications. If you find one whose

images you like, see if they offer workshops then attend one, then another and

another. Do at least one every year. I see so many looking for the next greatest

gadget but the best item for your photography resides between your left and right

ears.

 

If you were a golfer how about, if you could, get Tiger Woods as your coach and

mentor? That'd be pretty darn good. What not do the same with photography. Find

a photographer, attend their workshops, become friends.

 

Keep learning...forever.

[jo_dinning]

That's a great attitude Bill - learning is lifelong in all the skills we acquire. In fact, that's what keeps life interesting!

[dustin_hatcher]

Hi All,

 

WOW! So much great info, I definitely should've posted here sooner. Thank you all

for the technical critiques. Admittedly those wedding photos were taken a couple of

years ago and I feel I have progressed a bit since then (maybe not much). You can

also see some stuff at www.truebeautyphotography.blogspot.com

 

Although, I haven't posted there in a little while, I intend to get my butt in gear and

start putting up more work. If for nothing more than the critique I can grow and learn

from around here. I can see there are many experienced professionals willing to

help here and I think that's great.

 

For William;

You're right we didn't really use any significant way of coming up with prices. Just

figured in an hourly rate + costs for the prints and albums (which we didn't exactly

know at the time so we guessed). We now know those hourly rates are waaaay too

high and we're getting a bead on the costs of albums.

 

For the Daves;

We have tried so many times to get work off craigslist either for low or no budget but

just can't seem to snap anything up. We are doing some other stuff for family and

friends though for no budget that is going to help us practice. We actually have our

*first* engagement shoot coming up on 6/28 for a couple that already paid a pro

photog to do their *real* engagement session, but they are friends and wanted to

help us out with our portfolio, so that one is a bit nerve racking. :)

 

I noted that the comment I made about those who believe I shouldn't charge

because I didn't go to school for this was a lot more popular topic in this post than I

initially thought it would be. To clear things up a bit, I've ran into individuals (few

and far between) who have this very attitude that if this was not your professional

field of study you shouldn't be charging for it. What I'm NOT trying to say is that if

you did go to school that you're not a valid photographer and I'm also not saying that

I don't believe in attending courses. I actually attended a workshop at a local

camera store here put on by a guy by the name of Richard Dischler. A very quality

class and I can't wait to take part II of his lighting workshop. So I do study and take

classes when I can, I just wanted to make it well known that snobbery attitude of not

studying as it for a profession fresh out of school would not be tolerated :) (which

ironically I guess put me in a different snobbery class heh).

 

PS: Bill; my wife and I are joining the WPPI and definitely going to 2009 convention.

:)

[dd_toth]

You did mention how you have contacted photographers about second shooting and

some of their responses are, take my workshop. It sounded like that is something

you aren't open to doing. However if you are wanting to start your own

photography business and think that you don't have to actually put money into

it, you have the wrong idea.

 

Ask any pro here and they can tell you approx how much they had to invest in

their business in order to even make it a successful part time business, let

alone full time. Keep that in mind. You don't have to go to school for 2-4

years, but you do have to learn some way and you yourself, don't always have the

answers. You can do it yourself, but it will take a long time. And considering

you already have a website and are asking for money, you don't have a long time.

If you take a workshop here and there and shoot in between, your skills will

improve much faster and you will learn ways of doing things that you never even

thought of.

 

There are so many things you have to understand and it's not just the camera. I

suggest you work on filling up those other galleries you have from shooting

family and friends who are willing to be your test subjects. Challenge yourself.

Work on different techniques with each shoot, natural light vs strobes. Play

with each lens in each shoot to find the limits of each lens and the different

looks they each give to your shoot. By improving your skills in the other types

of portraiture you will be much better at the next wedding shoot you have.

 

If you have friends getting married ask them if their photographer doesn't mind

having someone else around shooting candids and that you promise not to get in

the way. Take portraits of their friends and family during speeches, dancing

shots during reception, etc...Go around take detail shots like you have on your

website.You need to improve on those. A lot of highlights are blown out due to

over exposure. The compositions need work. For example, the present pic, the

present is taking up most of the composition rather then the actual focal point,

the card. It's even falling out of focus, you need to move the focal point into

the frame. Any focal point within the one inch border of the pic will cause the

eye to leave the frame, and you don't want that. You want the eye to linger and

view the image as long as possible. The close up of the table has a bit of that

as well.

 

As far as pricing, go over the exact costs that you incur. Figure out what

albums you are using, the average amount of pages you will be needing, costs of

printing, shipping,etc...lab costs of prints and enlargements, etc...of course

the skill and experience of the photographer plays a role after all the costs

are tallied up, and decide if the profit you are giving yourself is too much for

right now with your skill and experience in mind. When customers spend that kind

of money they expect the images to reflect that. Anyways hope this helps, and

good luck!

[aperture images]

Dustin, I will not be as long winded as many others here. I wanted to say, get some major experience behind you before taking a supposed one time event into your hands. A Wedding, like any professional project is very important, not only to you but to your client. As far as pricing, I believe you have to grow into what you are worth to your client...it's called "Precieved Value". This is created, not by bells and whistles, but rather, Quality and Experience and the work to back it up. Being a Great Photographer is just part of the solution...you have to be able to SELL IT. Good Luck and start slow.

 

Alan H

[dustin_hatcher]

Thanks Desirae and Alan,

 

I'm definitely not against taking workshops. Far from it in fact, but I have to budget

them as I have to budget for new equipment as well. I feel the 2 go a bit hand in

hand. Some will say it's far more important to take the work shops and learn the

fundamentals, but I also feel it's important to have appropriate equipment to practice

what you just learned as well. You can only go so far with a camera body and a

couple of lenses (we have 3 camera bodies and a few lenses, but are in need of

more flashes and a couple more different lenses that will aid us in practicing our

techniques in low lights and getting a greater range of DOF).

[virginia_carden]

I am also new to wedding photography. My pricing is much lower, but I am not in california. I think that you should lower your prices, just to get some weddings under your belt. Then with experience and the more you learn the more you can charge.

I just booked a wedding via craigslist using a low price offering sale

Thats what I am doing anyway

Good luck!

[William Michael]

Although having natural tendency to verbosity, (long windedness: wind me up and I can go for hours!) . .

 

I can give the Executive Summary version:

 

Question: `let me know what you think in terms of pricing`

 

Objective answer: Bronze is a loss leader, Silver is OK if that is the business you want to be in, Gold is the best money spinner, but it is a different business to Silver and Bronze. If you want to be in the Platinum & Gold Business: keep Silver but kill Bronze and Platinum should be around $4000.

 

Subjective answer: All are overpriced, except the Bronze, but Bronze will leave a very bad taste in your mouth.

 

Question not asked, `what is the suggested road?`:

 

Get apprenticed or do as many jobs as an assistant before putting up the next shop window. This shop window is bad advertising and it is imprudent business practice to run Beta testing, live.

 

WW

 

PS: I very much like the door and barrel bolt and the interior view showing the Wedding Dress with cross on the wall slightly OoF.