Kamber's M8 Extensive Field Test

[jorge_diaz]

My m8 is still working.I still like it very much.I still feel sorry for the material M.Kamber lost. I bought it refurbished for much less than the price quoted.Still it was the highest price I have payed for a camera and the point of decision was that I had collected plenty glass that could be used on it.I had read the controversy with the DMR and the many 'comparos' with the other options one could choose for a camera at that price .One of the experiences I liked the most was shooting candids with Barnack cameras and then the Ms . So there. I like the niche. It was a bit of a gamble. Is Leica going to be able to surmount its difficulties into a satisfactory product.I feel and hope they will if it hasn't already happened .Comparing Leica's R+D power to Mighty Canon's is unrealistic.In the meantime I am enjoying my M8.I am not a rich man.Buying the M8 occured when I tried to treat myself for being such a nice fellow who is not a pro hanging his reputation on the thing. I feel as sorry for M.Kamber's lost work like I do for Frank Capa's lost D-Day shots.I do have a background in electronics and know that those 'designer chips' sometimes come in bad batches that the supplier corrects after some run by trial and error.Can it happen to anybody?Absolutely.Have you thought about the possibility that your favorite other camera goes through a massive die-out after some time in the market due to some inherent flaw of design somewhere? I harbor no animosity one way or the other for any manufacturer.I have had disappointments with brands now disappeared that I wish were still around to offer service for their unintentionally failed products.Such is life.

[fran__ois_p._weill]

Jorge :

 

>> My m8 is still working.I still like it very much.I still feel sorry for the material M.Kamber lost. I bought it refurbished for much less than the price quoted. <<

 

Glad for you your M8 is still working and you pay it less than the full price. But as you indicate it is a "refurbished" one...

 

The M8 is a relatively recent creation and still the only game in town for a digital rangefinder. The fact you can find a refurbished one at this point of the camera commercial career (and it seems you are not an exception) clearly indicates a sizeable number of cameras went dead and were discarded by their original owners and then refurbished by Leica to be sold at a lower price. The second information the same fact denotes is you might have more chance to have a "working as advertised" M8 this way than buying a brand new one.

 

I never saw this happen with a film M series camera !

 

>> I had collected plenty glass that could be used on it <<

 

Of which not a single one will keep its original field of view and the more bothering limitations will concern the wide size of your lens range forcing you to buy the wide angle Tri-Elmar new, a lens which is very pricey... Generally the wide angle capabilities of a rangefinder are more important to their users than their tele-lens capabilities - ever limited by the vry concept of a rangefidner camera. For example what shall I do with my 135mm f/4 excellent lens on an M8 and a 21mm becoming a mere equivalent to a 28mm ?

 

>> Comparing Leica's R+D power to Mighty Canon's is unrealistic <<

 

If you need the Canon or Nikon capabilities to properly develop a digital rangefidner camera and you are a (relatively) small company like Leica either you make a joint venture with somone able to assist, either you do nothing at all. Zeiss is still alive and well selling "outdated" but high quality concepts (Ikon and its lenses, manual F mount lenses...). the crucial point is Zeiss (through whatever mean they found practical, including a joint venture) pratice far more reasonable prices for an equivalent quality. Leica mangement has still to realize they are no more in a monopolisitic situation regarding M mount lenses and at least film rangefinder cameras.

 

>> I do have a background in electronics and know that those 'designer chips' sometimes come in bad batches that the supplier corrects after some run by trial and error.Can it happen to anybody? Absolutely <<

 

Of course yes and particularly during the "teething trouble period"... But, first, the teething trouble period of the M8 seems far longer than average and it doesn't preclude Leica AG to exchange ON THE SPOT a defective material instead of making their customers (including professionals) wait 4 MONTHS for a fix on their camera.

 

I harbor no animosity against the respectable history and the past creations of Leica. But I harbor considerable lack of consideration for the successive management teams since the demise of the M5 of both Leitz and Leica AG and more against Leica AG which definitely transformed a very respectable and reknown manufacturer of excellent photographic TOOLS into a fondler's pricey gadget fabric for MOST of its customers'panel as far as NEW material is concerned...

 

Moreover, I'd really whish Leica could get the all new management team it desserves due to its rich past history and go back to its roots of high quality advanced toolmaker for the professional and the discriminating amateur, producing a good "digital rangefinder camera of the 21st century" and selling it at an acceptable price for what it would be.

 

Should it had been the case, I would have never been obliged to sell my cherished lenses with my good Hexar RF body to afford a Nikon D3 or D300, as I prefer rangefinders to SLR's. But I can't afford the reliable and performing pro level digital tool I need otherwise.

 

The best way not to go under after you issue a failed product is to withdraw it as fast s possible, correct it if you can or issue another, this time a perfect one. Not to charge your customers to fix (part) of your blunders and insufficiency at high cost like Leica dare to today.

 

There are "bugs" in most DSLR programs, but I've never seen any manufacturer charge the customer for the corrective upgrade and materailly defective cameras are EXCHANGED.

 

This makes all the difference.

 

FPW

[londoner]

Curses.

 

I'm a student photojournalist, and was about to shell out for an M8 and a couple of lenses next month, ostensibly to replace my 5D for most work (I have a lucrative sideline in as a contractor, before you wonder how I'm paying for it) and the M8 is off the shopping list.

 

And it's entirely down to the performance of the camera. It's a tool and I like my cameras to do but two things:

 

1) Be consistent.

2) Get out of my way.

 

The M8 appears to do neither very well, with stupid issues:

 

* forced into putting an IR filter on over the lens.

* removal of baseplate to fit SD card.

* cruddy controls that can be accidentally moved. Didn't everyone already solve these issues?

 

So I wanted a camera with the best quality/bulk ratio, and the M8 was essentially promising these things. I even went over to a London Leica Dealer and met an extremely helpful chap who let me play with it, and it felt good to use, but I expect that, quite frankly - the other issues are awkward. And more so at the prices.

 

How the price/performance is acceptable to anyone is beyond me.

 

I'm very sad I won't be owning an M8 and will end up buying a D3X or 1Ds III (I have lenses for both systems) with their associated bulk, but I will, by hook or by crook, be getting the pictures I want to get...

[peteradownunder]

Two things kinda bug me about my M8. Firstly, it isnt full frame. Secondly it has a slightly awkward shutter release. I like the camera and use a 21/35 and 50 on it to make happy snaps. In use for street it is no better /worse than any other camera I have used some advantages some disadvantages. The file quality is very good - as good if not better than any CaNikon I have used. Still - I bow to the greater wisdom of all those who don't own one and don't use one but are astute readers of other people's experiences and have the intelligence to generalise from same. If x,y, z so called pro - says something it must be true.<p> Cheers<p>Pete

[kiwicafe]

Man oh man what a tough bunch . . . I love my M8 with a new 90 mm F2 & 16/18/21 mm F4, waiting on a 50 mm. I read it all. I

sold

all my Nikon gear for the M8 and now want a Leica M6 or 7 as well. I do not want to be a computer operator on a Nikon or Canon

that is

obsolete as soon as you buy it. I have no issue with the base of the camera, how the hell did you ever get film in before without

opening something. I shoot street photography, portraits off the cuff and architectural imagery. I love shooting from the hip. I

hardly use the

view finder. It's a robust camera. I also have a Digilux 2 that bounced all over the American West for two years in a Land Rover.

Awsome. The quality of the imagery is what counts for me. I am a prosumer I guess, film editor for 40 years and I write. Multi

media

artist I guess. I have worked with some of the photographic greats, my eye and instinct are what I trust. There are quite possibly

better cameras out

there, so be it. I am very comfortable with what I have, it is becoming a very good friend.

[Spearhead]

<i>Nikon or Canon that is obsolete as soon as you buy it.</i><P>I'm still licensing photos for full page magazine spreads from my 10D. How is it obsolete? Please, tell me. I bought it four or five years ago, I didn't realize it's been obsolete that long.

[msitaraman]

So the M8 is no M3 or M6. Hope they get there though...

 

A 8mpx3 full frame Foveon sensor Leica M with extended dynamic range would be nice, wouldn't it? I can see using something like that for decades. The M8 is clearly a transitional technology model, unless Leica Camera bankrupts itself.

[fran__ois_p._weill]

Richard :

 

>> ... I love my M8 with a new 90 mm F2 & 16/18/21 mm F4, waiting on a 50 mm. <<

 

Do you realize how much this equipment cost, even if your M8 works properly (some must do) ?

 

I have a 135mm f/4 (Leitz) as new, impossible to use on an M8, a 90mm f/2.8 M-Hexanon bound to be equivalent of

an odd 117mm on an M8 in terms of FOV, a 35mm f/2 (Summicron Leitz Canada) and a CV 21mm. The 35mm will become

the equivalent of a no less odd 45.5 mm (almost a 50, which I don't particularly like on a rangefinder) and the

21mm a 27.3mm (almost a 28mm)... So I will lose the 135, have a strange portrait lens with the 90mm (this might

be tolerable), an almost "standard" lens with the 35mm but will lose my main lens field of view which happens to

be the one of the 35mm in full format and to crown the things my very wide 21 mm will become a mere equivalent of

a 28mm I frankly never realy found complied to buy on a rangefinder... The CV 21mm was a very cheap lens by Leica

standards in price but a great lens regarding IQ. To bring back such a field of view I will have to buy the wide

Tri-Elmar you got which is almost as exepensive as the body itself ! ...

 

Suppose Leica had issued a FF frame body, with no IR problems and few concerns about reliability which seems to

be a random problem of the M8... Perhaps I would have been tempted, even if some ergonomics were not as good as

on pro DSLR's. Even at the present very high price, because I wouldn't have been complied to buy any additional

lens (and a brand new one instead of my usual second hand practice for M lenses) so the total amount would have

been similar to what I will spend on a new Nikon DSLR and glass.

 

May be you are wealthy enough to afford an M8 and the necessary lenses, may be it is only selling your Nikon SLR

gear you did it, but you certainly don't really work with your M8 as I won't give any confidence to a brand which

- in case of a failure under warranty - will not either exchange the camera on the spot or fix it within short

delays. For me it is a working tool, and I can't afford a spare digital camera with another system.

 

>> I do not want to be a computer operator on a Nikon or Canon <<

 

This kind of argument ever makes me laugh... Be it a Leica, an Hasselblad, a Rollei or the latest Electronic DSLR

marvel, I intend to be in command. On any pro or expert DSLR you can neutralize any of the automatic functions

and - at least with a Nikon you can even use old manual lenses ! Master the computer inside and make the right

selection to be truely in command is a question of "brain fortitude". The machine is only their to perform things

you will never be able to do as fast and precisely should the conditions force its use. The concept of artificial

intelligence is just marketing bulls..t. YOU THINK (and decide the appropriate settings, including to use or not

to use such or such automatic feature) the machine obeys ! ...

 

>> that is obsolete as soon as you buy it. <<

 

In the present state of the art, any digital camera from any brand is obolete in terms of potential IQ even

before it is available to the general public. In film times, the film itself could make progress in defintion,

restitution of contrasts, available speed and, provided the film format remained the same, a 50 year old and more

film camera with a lens of similar quality might produce an identical image to the one the latest film camera

produced. In digital times, the sensor and the accompaining electronics are integral parts of the body. As the

sensors and the electronics progress at each generation and - for the moment, like any "young" technology - they

progress fast, your body will have a very short useful life as the best available in its range before

obsolescence. In many ways, the M8, when compared on relevant features with current DSLR's of its generation was

even MORE obsolete from day 1 than any other camera. And its output (as I SAW the pics by myself) are not so

superior if superior to the output of pro DSLR's of its generation (taking into account the role of the really

superior Leica lens performance) when it goes to PJ work (generally taken at higher average ISO settings thn

quiet landscape, architectural or family pics).

 

>> I have no issue with the base of the camera, how the hell did you ever get film in before without opening

something. <<

 

Progress means you correct antique obsolete features. It is only for economical reasons Leica never modify their

film cameras to provide them with a speedier, less akward way, to load the film. Nikon dropped the two pieces

arrangement (once common during the 50's and the 60's as a loading system on many 35mm cameras) for an opening

door which stood attached to the camera body from the Nikkormat Ftn and thereafter on the then new flagship the

F2. I think it should have been the right moment for Leica as they went digital and used a solid piece called an

SD card instead of a film, which required a rather complexe mechanism, to get rid of the akward removable

baseplate (did you ever tried to reload an M in the middle of a demonstration as the police charges ?) which can

drop and even be crushed by the crowd or lost in the process. My standard practice was to keep it in my mouth,

not a very comfortable way isn't it?

 

>> I shoot street photography, portraits off the cuff and architectural imagery. <<

 

"All is quiet on the Potomac" ... Can't you understand the difference beween the kind of pics you take and the

hardships of a violent event not even to mention war photography ?

 

>> I love shooting from the hip. I hardly use the view finder. It's a robust camera. <<

 

Shooting from the hip doesn't require a robust camera... I do that with ANY small format (and even an MF like my

Rolleiflex) camera provided I use a wide to standard angle of the manual kind with a complete DOF scale engraved.

 

>> I also have a Digilux 2 that bounced all over the American West for two years in a Land Rover. Awsome. <<

 

Is the fact my Nikon F2 can hammer nails without problem a proof a Nikon 801S all lowly plastic made can do the

same ? By the way, as far as I know, the Digilux is nothing but a re-branded Panasonic made camera ... Apples and

oranges...

 

>> The quality of the imagery is what counts for me. <<

 

So do I... But I want to obtain it flawlessly without having to ask me each time I take my camera if it is going

to deliver it or not, will refuse to operate for unknown reason and require a re-boot like a Windows 95 loaded

computer. I want a camera which - in case it fails - might be fixed within reasonable delays and - at least for

the 6 month to one year part of the guarantee will be exchanged immediately if this reasonable delay proves

impossible to provide.

 

By the way, you will certainly be hard pressed in a blind test to discriminate a *printed* M8 pic from the one

taken with a D3 or a D300 at say A4 format... And in A2+ the difference will probably become obvious, but largely

in favor of the Nikons.

 

>> I am a prosumer I guess, film editor for 40 years and I write. Multi media artist I guess. I have worked with

some of the photographic greats, my eye and instinct are what I trust. There are quite possibly better cameras

out there, so be it. I am very comfortable with what I have, it is becoming a very good friend. <<

 

You failed to mention it is the kind of friend which cost you dearly to obtain what you get in return. not to say

it is not enough for your kind of use. But to pay more for less available features, count on luck to get a

properly operating camera off the box and be assured if it fails to have to wait for months to have it fixed

cannot reasonably be qualified as something rational. Not even taking into account the fact the very concept of a

rangefinder camera is more limiting by itself than the SLR concept interms of choice of useable focal lengths and

access to macro-photography should these features be sometimes required. And I repeat I prefer rangefinder

cameras myself for the kind of work I need to perform. But I'm not a blind adept.

 

For me, set aside the lenses which keep up with the best available, Leica AG has pushed the limits of the

tolerable, both in terms of value and performance for money, unreliability and customer's service "a bridge too

far" this time.

 

FPW

[farhad]

It's very simple - they make the best lenses. If they were to make lenses for Nikon mounts - they'd see crazy sales even at

exhorbidant prices. Nikon only seems to focus (no pun intended) on zooms, and even their fixed lenses I'd be happy to

swap for a plush leica lens. Oh ya they also need to make a high res compact digital fixed lens camera - like the Sigma DP1 - essential.