Quandary. Mamiya 7 or 6 x 12?

[john_brewton]

I've been shooting a long time. Currently shoot Leica M8 & M3 and will

continue to do so. I do pretty well selling my images. I want to do larger,

sharp prints and am fed up with DSLR's and have been investigating the

two options listed above. I know there is a huge difference between the two

systems. But I can only afford one at this time. I like the Mamiya lens as it

rates fairly high (but I realize MTF charts have little to do with the real world

of shooting), and others seem to concur. The 6 x 12 appeals for the

panorama and ability to crop down if need be. But I'm concerned about

sharpness across such a large expanse of film. Each setup has good

points and not-so-good points. I can buy either setup for essentially the

same price.

I wonder if anyone out there has gone through this same thought process

and what they came up with?

Thanks for all replies.

[mauro_franic]

If you have a Coolscan 9000, the M 7II or RZ67, if you don't have a good scanner and just use a flatbed, the 6x12.

 

 

How large you want to print, what subject and with which printer?

[jim_momary]

The Mamiya 7 has arguably among the sharpest lenses for medium format. I cannot comment about film flatness in 6x12. Something to consider, as you know, the 7 is a rangefinder. Compact but with parallax issues for close ups, to some degree. I grew up with 35mm slrs and find the use of rangefinder tough for me, my issue, of course. I much prefer a thru the lens camera. I use a Yashica 124G, Mamiya M645 1000s and an RB67 Pro S. I have a variety of finders for the M and the 67. The 6x7 negative from the RB67 is only amazing compared to anything 35mm film or digital can do. I scan the stuff on a good quality Epson flatbed with film holders. Results are superb but not perfect. When I can afford it, I intend to get a better film scanner, e.g. ~ Nikon 9000. Now of course the cameras I mention are heavy and bulky, compared to the Mamiya 7. It's a tough call, lots of pros & cons both ways. Bear in mind 6x7 almost perfectly fits paper later when you print. Unless you are going for panoramas, the 6x12 will need to be cropped. So, there may be no net gain in 'resolution' as a goodly portion of the image will be discarded. What is the price difference between the two you are considering, is that a determinent? My 2 cents. Jim M.

[randy_larson]

If you're shooting a Leica now, I would think that the Mamiya 7II would be the way to

go. I use this camera as a complement to my 4x5 and 6x17cm panoramic.

Remember, that the 6x7 cropped will do a decent job on panoramics to 30" or so. In

my opinion, don't use the 35mm panoramic adaptor, just crop the 6x7. I have used a

6x12RFB on 4x5 and liked the results. I just found that for my shooting it was not

'panoramic' enough. I love the 7II for photojournalistic work or landscapes in weather

that is too difficult to set up 4x5. Up to 24"x30" I believe that it approaches the 4x5.

Of course there are limitations in lenses, macro, etc. See my website at

randylarsonphotography.com

[stuart_richardson]

What 6x12 are you thinking about? If you are just doing stationary, tripod mounted

photography, then why not just go to 4x5? Or even a view camera with a 6x12 (or

larger) roll film back. <P>If you need to have some mobility and speed in working (of

if you want to work handheld), I would just go for the Mamiya 7. It is much more

flexible, and if you are used to working with the M3 and M8, it will not be much of a

stretch. It is completely sharp across the frame, the lenses are excellent, and you

get a nice ergonomic body, a meter and a rangefinder. I don't think that there is any

problem with the prints from the Mamiya 7, and assuming you are using proper

technique, 30x40 inch prints should not be a problem. This of course is contingent

on your printing technique -- consumer products don't cut it at those sizes -- you

need a drum scanner, one of the Imacons, or the Nikon 9000 or Minolta Scan Multi

Pro using the glass carriers (if you don't use the glass carriers in the 9000 or the

Multi Pro, you will not get the edge to edge sharpness you need). On the analog

side, you need a perfectly aligned enlarger, a glass carrier and a great enlarging lens

like the 90mm f/4.5 APO Companon HM. <P>All in all, if print quality is the only

consideration, at the expense of speed, convenience and everything else, get a 4x5

kit (or something like an Alpa), but if you want to work with a rangefinder like the

Leicas, only with much better print quality, just get the Mamiya.

[sfcole]

John,

Just wondering what you mean by "fed up with DSLRs"?

Scott

[john_brewton]

I've had three DSLR's. And they were all ok, but I want a more true film look by using, what else?, film! My M8 is really terrific and, after over a year of ownership, I've finally got the color figured out. It also turns out bw that is close to MF. I can't quantify it actually - I just want to shoot more film again. I think digital really falls down on dynamic range and tonality and I'm sick and tired of the manufacturers coming out with a new body every two years and claiming they have one more stop of dr than they had in the previous body. Whoopee-do. Every time I shoot my M3 I fall in love with film all over again and for the most part I shoot the two Leicas side by side. My only scanner is a dedicated 35mm, the Minolta 5400, with SilverFast software. I'm actually thinking of having all the MF work done by a lab and printing with an enlarger.

Stuart, I'm looking at a Fotoman for 6 x 12. I was talking to Jim at Midwest Photo, but he wants to sell me a Fuji or Nikon lens and if I get one I want some of that German glass. I would love to have an Alpa, but money is a little tight right now.

Thanks to everyone for your considered opinions. You have been a huge help.

[stuart_richardson]

Have you shot medium or large format with the Japanese glass John? Because I

don't think they perform worse than the German counterparts these days. I have

used a lot of different cameras, including Leicas with the ASPH lenses, Hasselblad

with the 200 series Zeiss lenses, Rollei 6000 with Schneider lenses....and frankly,

the Mamiya 7 lenses are as good or better than all of the lenses I have used. They

are a bit conservative in their aperture, but for example the 43mm is better than any

wide angle I have ever used in ANY format. The 65mm, 80mm and 150mm are all

superb as well. I have only used Fuji glass in the Xpan and in a G690, but both of

them were really good. Their large format lenses are very well regarded and of

course they are being used to shoot most of the commercial work today, given that

they are the makers of the Hasselblad H system glass. There may be some

differences in terms of contrast (the Mamiya glass is more contrasty than the

Hasselblad and Rollei glass, so go for Astia or E100G instead of Velvia), but overall

the lenses are not going to let you down. <P>Anyway, if you do have a lab do the

work, make sure you get one that is up to the task, otherwise your concern about

the lenses won't really matter. Phototechnica in New York is great for black and

white -- Brian Young is the printer there, and he does the printing for ICP as well as

a number of big name photographers (Eugene Richards, Bruce Davidson, James

Nachtwey etc).

[john_photo]

I would not purchase a 612 and crop down. Make a decision between purchasing a panoramic camera or a standard medium format camera. This comparing apples to oranges. The Mamiya 7 is a completely different beast than a fotoman/linhof type panoramic camera.

 

If your vision requires huge panoramic prints for gallery exhibition then go with the 612. The last thing I would worry about is whether the 612 lenses are of good quality. People have been using these type cameras for ages and with a modern set of optics there is plenty of resolving power to provide edge to edge sharpness.

 

Focus on your needs and what you want out of the camera.

[steve_larese1]

Hi, John Brewton,

 

Well said, I think a lot of people are returning to film for many projects, while certainly not abandoning digital.

 

I shoot Mamiya 7s and absolutely love them. I think you'd use this system a lot more than a 6x12. I use mine along side a Leica M6 and Nikon D2x. You can find a used body in good condition for $500, lenses start there and go up, well worth it. You can crop the 6x7, or I use the pano adapter for more images on slide film. It's more quiet than Leicas and handles basically the same though larger, well balanced in the hand.

 

You can also pick up a good, cheap Crown Graphic 4x5 and a box of Quick Loads for when you wish you had the much more expensive 6x12.

 

Good luck :)

[philippartridge]

Unless your major interest, or intended interest, is pamorama, with the focus on 4x5 style shooting; slow steady setup, metering, careful composition framing, stationary subjects, etc....612. The 2:1 ratio is of course very close to the movie film frames: 1.85 and 2.15, very creative in that factor alone.

 

For everything else, like environmental portraits, street photography, walk around shooting, and, what I shoot, landscapes off a tripod - the Mamiya 7.

 

Getting affordable now, these lightweight cameras have among the best optics made, in MF or any other format; despite seeming a little crude and under-specified, the Mamiyas possess top class film flatness, accurate framing and low inertia within-lens leaf shutters and quiet shutter actions one can almost miss hearing; and deliver MTF data few others can match. The wides deliver great DOF, as they produce the goods down at f16.

 

Unless you need truly giant wide panos, the 4:5 aspect ratio can be cropped readily; you can print modern films very large using a high quality desktop scanner and say, a Lightjet or Chromira; also a pigment ink desktop printer. I use a Minolta M/scan Pro, and scans of Astia, Velvia and Reala are in overall image quality, much higher quality than my D200 RAW images. 612 images are more fussy to process, scan and print from, not to mention no minilab prints.

 

Other benefits include: low weight body and lens - a Mamiya 7 and 65mm lens, filter and battery scales in at 1480 grams; 10 frames per 120, 20 per 220, low distortion wides, need for a less strong tripod/head, a great finder, reasonable weather proofing, small bulk so a smaller bag. I carry one on multi-day treks, along with the digital, which gets used for very wide and very long and ad hoc shots. The important subjects go on the Mamiya.

[john_photo]

Accurate framing on the Mamiya 7? wow. Time to put the crack the pipe down.

 

While the Mamiya 7 is a great system the last thing it has, like all rangefinder cameras, is accurate framing. Of course you have some room to crop with the 6x7 negative. This is nice cause compared to an SLR you just might need it.

[john_brewton]

John, your comment on rangefinder framing may be true with some systems and I would include the M8 with them, but experience takes care of this. The film M Leicas are very accurate and I've never had a problem with them and I've owned three.

[robert_meyers]

I have no expirence with either. However I have constantly wanted to try and trade my leica M6TTL for a Mamiya 7II.:)