When you serve 2 masters, you dissapoint one or both. Wedding Planner Dilema - Advice needed

[jo_dinning]

I think too that you should take some legal advice. However, correct me if I'm wrong (and I could be): It appears you have been paid - "However, the payment was made to me from the WP via check"

You then state that the WP took $1000 from your fee to cover hers - "I told her I would give her 10% (which was a lot less than $1,000) but she took the $1,000 out of the amount she paid me anyway". It appears to me that your agreement has been with the WP, as this has been the only avenue for payment, and that she has taken what could be considered as a 'commission' for finding you the work. However there is only a verbal contract in force between the two of you, and apparently no agreement between yourself and the bride.

 

To sort things out with the WP, I would send her a set of thumbnail proofs (or direct her to a webpage) along with a letter stating that your agreement has now been concluded following the provision of photographic services on the day and a set of proofs. It is up to her to prove otherwise.

 

As for the monies outstanding to the WP from the bride, you don't say why the Bride has not paid up, or checked out whether this story is true. But either way, how is this your problem? If the WP wants to sue the bride for further monies not paid for her services, then she can do so. There is no reason for you to sort this out or hand any money over. You do not have a contract with the bride.

 

It sounds to me as if the WP has got herself into a pickle, and if I were you I'd let her get herself out of it. Don't get further dragged into this without receiving legal advice - you don't want to get done for fraud by collusion.

 

As for the bride - send her a copy of the same letter that you send to the WP, supplying her with the same set of thumbnail proofs or webpage as the WP, along with a covering letter stating that as a goodwill gesture you will be happy to supply her with x number of x-sized prints free of charge.

 

Suck it up and don't do this dumb stuff again!

[alec_myers]

I'd send the pics to both of them, by registered mail, and get a receipt for delivery. You've been paid for your work, what goes on between the wp and the bride is frankly none of your business. The less time and money you waste pursuing this further, the better off you'll be. According to US law the copyright remains yours absent a written contract to assign (which you obviously don't have, otherwise there wouldn't be a problem.) So you're within your rights to give them to whomever you like. You certainly are under no obligation to help the wp in her quest if you don't want to, as far as I can see.

[mark_luinenburg]

As much as I would like to side totally with the bride, her saying that she can't prove the purchase of a bank check is suspect. The bank gives (or should have) a receipt at the time of purchase, as Rich Simmons mentioned. My guess is that she is withholding the money because of dissatisfaction with the WP. Telling you that she did pay the WP if in fact she didn't is very unfair to you. Whether she did or didn't pay is not your concern at all, it's the WP's. After shorting you $1000 the WP wants you to help her out? Nooooooooo. There's no contract that says you have to.

 

Unless you can get a free consultation with an attorney, I wouldn't go that route just yet. You're already out a bunch of money. There's a good chance the WP is just blowing smoke to scare you, unless you've heard of other cases where she has sued clients. You can always write things down and get signed statements from witnesses on your own should you need them later. Best of luck in all this.

[steve_c.5]

It seems the only reason the WP wants the photos is so she can hold them over the bride's head and maintain control. The bride has paid more than she should have, and you're short $1000.

 

The WP isn't the bride. Give the bride the photos and album. The photos are of the bride's wedding, not the WP's. I would not give any photos to the WP, as you certainly don't want her using them to promote herself. I'd advise the bride to withold the photos from her as well.

[edith_frederick]

Hello Stacy and all,

 

- The headline lured me into this thread as I innocently perused the new home page

design ? and I have had some experience with marketplace pirates and clients from

hell that helps me empathize, but I don?t need to go there for this comment >

 

- People who responded here have offered some sound and wise advice. Pasted into a

Word document in 14pt Lucida Grande the thread is 13 pages!

 

- Stacy, I?d like help you make the most of this generous outpouring by adding a simple

homework exercise before you take your next step.

 

- First, make yourself a study copy as above so you can highlight all the good points

above in order to >

 

- Clarify your thinking on this now, before your next move, and

 

- Save your highlighted copy to re-read before your next job negotiation!

 

- The advice in this thread offers valuable ?keeper? insights into:

 

- How to approach jobs professionally by-the-book and from a

position of ethical power, and

 

- Options for some damage control if you and/or others have already proceeded not-by-

the-book.

 

- Second, please use the format I am using here and write down the sequence of facts

in your experience with only one sentence per entry, double-spaced.

 

- This may take up three pages or ten pages in Word, but it will be useful for clarifying

what happened, what you owe, what you are owed and how you actually DO feel about

it all and your rightful fees.

 

- This exercise will build grit experience and be productive foundation background for

your next job negotiations.

 

- If you contact an attorney, you can either present him/her with your story clearly

written as I have suggested, or you can pay him/her to make notes while you tell your

story -- and where I live that?s $175-275 per hour for any reputable attorney you would

actually want to depend upon or be obligated to pay.

 

- Despite what you hear about the availability of legal aid attorneys, please know that

you would be competing for their attention with a huge client load of people who need

survival help with Social Security benefits and civil rights abuse issues.

 

- Please be aware that there are attorneys who will solicitously take any job where there

appears to be money-for-fees in the offing anywhere, and I have seen a simple

mediation turn into $12k in

attorney?s fees over a year ? seen from a distance, thank God.

 

- See how you can pack one sentence? ?

 

- Since the amount of fees at issue seems to be in the $1000 range,

and with the story you have presented here, you could probably

get genuine justice in a Small Claims Court; they are available in every county and

would not require representation by an attorney.

 

- You can find the local SCC through your County Courthouse and

they will have explanatory brochures & short forms.

 

- Small Claims Courts are free or a small fee like $35, they mediate settlements up to

$3000, and they issue a legally binding judgment as a court order; an important closure

which you would not get from an attorney.

 

- I have won twice in Small Claims Court, never for myself but

as a friendly favor to two different design clients who were being wrongly put-upon by

misguided but determined & actionable claims in the $1500 range.

 

- To win in Small Claims Court you must have a virtuous case and if you have made a

few errors in judgment that is not fatal.

 

- Most importantly, you must bring one or more witnesses, if only character witnesses,

and you must write up your case briefly and clearly in a file that the Judge can ?take

into chambers.?

 

- The Judge will not decide that day; you will receive notice of a win and a court order in

the next few days, depending upon Court workload.

 

- This is where my suggestion of the clear, sentence-by-sentence, written statement of

your case comes in with respect to legally collecting rightful fees you might otherwise

give up on.

 

- Once you prepare as I have suggested and do a reality check on

your legal rights in Small Claims Court, you will probably FEEL and actually BE more

empowered to navigate through this matter using the kinds of useful damage-control

tactics that have been suggested here.

 

- I think you need the actual practice exercise because you still refer to believing

something the WP says or giving in to her demands: please do not go there.

 

- Kudos to someone above who has suggested that your best interests may be in

keeping this pretty quiet even as you are pro-active in your own behalf.

 

- By doing these grit-building exercises & reality checks you will

better be able to let the WP know -- without hurting yourself -- that you have not ridden

too far west without a posse.

 

- Good luck, Stacy, and I admire the way you have already demonstrated your artistic

grit by making desirable photos under such duress!

 

- So, this is a really long comment but my experience is that recipes do not turn out the

same good results if you do not follow them. And once you grasp the whole recipe you

are free to innovate.

 

- And Josh, you can think of this long comment as the revenge of the designer who let

herself get side-tracked by your headline. :- )

[edith_frederick]

Josh, I notice that this comment demonstrates how any kind of punctuation can turn

into a question mark. Dashes, quotes, apostrophes and smileys above have all turned

into question marks. This has happened before in photo critiques but there the edit

feature allows a correction which sticks.

[frameofmindphotography]

Since there is no "contract," you have no obligation to do anything with your photos. You may have been paid by the WP, but without a contract with her, she has no right to demand anything of you. I would do what everyone else is getting at. To be safe, give a copy of your photos to the WP. Also, to satisfy the bride (this is HER day), give her a set of the photos as well. This satisfies both parties. If the WP can't make money off of your photos then that's her fault for being shady and acting the way she has. This is the moral and ethical thing for you to do. Remember, in small business you reap what you sow. People like her don't stay in business for long.

[rick rosen]

Kickbacks are not illegal and they do occur in this business. What the WP did though

is highly unethical. I would have no further contact with her and deal directly with your

bride. Tell the bride what happened. I would then check to see if the WP is a member

of ABC (www.bridalassn.com) and if so file a compliant with ABC. As an ABC WP she

is not allowed to take kickbacks. I doubt that she is a member though.

 

Rick

[joshroot]

<i>"Josh, I notice that this comment demonstrates how any kind of punctuation can turn into a question mark. Dashes, quotes, apostrophes and smileys above have all turned into question marks."</i>

<p>

That is because you composed your message in a program that uses stylized punctuation marks. Our system has an issue with them for some reason. It's a problem that I am trying to get fixed. But at the moment, you should probably use a plain text editor of some sort. Or set your word processing program to not use stylized punctuation.

[William Michael]

Is there really, `no contract`: is that a legal opinion?

 

WW

[dirtlawyer]

Let's talk of the relationships here, because that is what determines the outcome. The bride is the principal, the WP is the agent OF THE PRINCIPAL, and you are the third party. The principal is a disclosed principal, because you knew at all times of the agency relationship.

 

Where there is a disclosed principal, you and the bride are contractually bound by acts of the agent. (GOD, I FEEL AS IF I AM TAKING THE BAR EXAM HERE). If the WP didn't get paid, the bridemust make good. If the WP takes and keeps the money, she is liable to the bride, and not to you. After all, you got paid!

 

The real issue here is who get's the photos; they are the item in dispute. Where two people are claiming the same property, the legal remedy is go file something called an interpleader. Once an interpleader is filed, the parties to the interpleader (the WP and the bride) are responsible for all additional costs, and possibly your costs for filing it. Your fee to an attorney should be nominal. I can assure you that at that point they will reach an agreement.

 

OH, yes, If the bride had no knowledge of the $1,000 kickback, she is entitled to those funds.

 

And next time, don't lift a finger without a signed contract and a deposit.

 

BTW, don't consider the above as legal advice furnished by me. I am retired and no longer permitted to practice law. Besides, I only stand one chance in 50 that I could have practiced in your jurisdiction anyway.

[surfidaho]

Howdy!

 

To answer Double W's question: It's beyond me. It does appear that there was a lot of double dealing on the part of the wedding planner, regardless of whether there was a contract, verbal or written.

 

Stacy, one more point about copyright: The wedding planner cannot use your photos on her website without your permission, unless that was part of your original agreement with her.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[surfidaho]

Howdy!

 

Gerald's explanation makes perfect sense, and seems fair to all involved.

 

Can we direct people with these sorts of questions to you in the future, even though you're retired? You can always add the "I'm retired" disclaimer. It's more than appropriate, because you will never get paid for the advice you offer here. ;^<)>

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[memecafe]

Thanks for the thoughts Gerald, it s good to hear from someone with a legal background. I am still unsure about what I will do, I will sleep on it and try to decide tomorrow.

 

The WP called me today and is asking me to help her! She wants me to make up a fake invoice for her to hide the kickback she TOOK from my pay. So basically she wants me to lie and say I got paid more than I did to hide the fact that she took the liberty of deducting $1000 from my fee.

And she said she is waiting to get the images from me.

 

Oh and at the end of her message she said she has another event coming up...I am booked, so do any of you want it? HA HA HA HA

She is crazy.

[dirtlawyer]

The easy advice first: Never, never, never, never......lie. For anyone. It just makes more trouble. The kickback is her problem. Let her bury her own dead. (See... this law stuff is really pretty easy.)

 

Don't give her the images. They are claimed by her principal. In fact, don't give them to anyone without a signed consent from both!

 

I don't want the job. I had enough problems practicing law.

[William Michael]

Hi Paul,

 

Exactly!

 

You nailed the precise point I was making.

 

Later,

 

Williamsky :)

[abintraphoto]

"Oh and at the end of her message she said she has another event coming up...I am booked, so do any of you want it? HA HA HA HA She is crazy." ............ Hell let's ALL show up - lol (-;

 

I didn't read *every* comment so pardon me if I'm being redundant - #1 Thanks for reminding me why I don't do weddings (-; - and I admire your courage for entering the fray ..... If I'm understanding correctly - the Bride didn't hire you nor did she pay you - the prints belong to the person who did - in my mind. ............ As for hiring a lawyer - that's easily said - and I'm guessing I'm not the only one who can't 'just decide to nor afford to' - hire a lawyer at the drop of a lens cap.. er .. hat ....... sure consultation is free - but a consultation is likely to mean - 'hire a lawyer'.

 

Summerizing - the *prints* belong to the one who hired you and paid you - irregardless of who you side with imwo (in my worthless opinion) ....... Hiring a lawyer is a very easy thing to say -- might as well grab yourself a BMW while you're at it - you'll feel better (-; ......... And I'm sure if you left the WP's contact info here we'd all just ..... follow-up maybe (-;

[craig_gillette]

Dan and David were right. Lawyer up and button up. And the OP should not be discussing, amending, commenting or explaining any of this on the web. Any discrepancies, confusions or other statements could come back to haunt her.

[alec_myers]

Just one thought (question really) for Gerald:

 

The photos are not a fixed good that needs to go to one party *or* the other, and the intellectual property in the photos has not been sold (absent a written transfer of the copyright.) So on what legal basis should the op not of her own volition give the pictures to the bride?

[dirtlawyer]

Alec, from what information I can glean from the original posting, the photographer was obligated to deliver the photos. The issue here is not the form of the photos, but who gets them.

 

Whether the photos are on a CD, a DVD, in an album, or illuminated on parchment by monks, they are what is to be delivered.

 

Who gets them? I haven't the slightest idea. But the safe thing to do is interplead them and let the WP and the bride fight it out.

[steve_c.5]

The situation Stacy got herself into, which resulted in this long but interesting thread, is a good example for all on how wedding vendors, and in particular, wedding photographers should conduct themselves and their business dealings.

 

In the first place, vendors who expect and rely on kickbacks, finders fees, or secret payola, and making or demanding such deals under the table, should be avoided at all costs. An ethical and legitimate businessperson can run a successful wedding vendor business without such tactics.

 

Wedding planners are just another vendor. They are being paid to provide a service. They communicate among vendors to make the event go more smoothly. They make recommendations to the bride of good vendors to hire. They do a lot of hard legwork so the bride doesn't have to. And, they use their skills to coordinate a creative vision of the event into reality. Their job is NOT to handle financial dealings on behalf of the bride, or speak for her in terms of money.

 

Part of my business model is successful networking with local vendors, and only those of the highest caliber. I make it a point to send my clients and potential clients to them, and they in turn do the same for me. That, as Stephen Covey says, is a win-win relationship.

 

My vendors do not expect any monetary kickback from me for a client gained. Likewise, I don't expect any from them. Each of us gets paid what we contracted for from the client. Double-dipping is something no client should be subjected to.

 

In the end, we serve only one master...our client. Nobody else matters.

[studioephotography]

Here is where you turned to the dark side:

"The WP had me add $1,000 secretly over my price to cover her "fee". She also got money from the bride's end by charging her separetely for her "WP" services."

 

How did the WP have YOU add $1000 to your price if only the WP is dealing with you and you are not dealing with the bride? If you agreed to bump your price to pay the WP, then that isn't exactly illegal. It leaves a bad taste but it isn't exactly wrong. However, the WP requesting this kind of thing should have set off 1000 alarms in the back of your brain.

 

ALWAYS HAVE A SIGNED CONTRACT AND PAYMENT BEFORE SHOOTING A WEDDING

 

You get a contract and a deposit when the client hires you. If they don't pay the balance (as outlined in your contract) before the date set in the contract (a week before the wedding for me) then you are not committed to anything on their wedding day and said deposit is forfeit (as stated in contract). Did I use the word contract enough?

 

You have no contract.

 

When someone hires a wedding photographer, they are paying for your skill. There is no entitlement to anything beyond you showing up and photographing.

 

WITHOUT A CONTRACT THERE IS NO AGREEMENT FOR A CLIENT TO RECEIVE ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THE SERVICE ALREADY PROVIDED. You own those images.

 

You may now set a price for any service that you choose. If someone (the WP) wants digital negatives, then sell them to her for whatever you normally charge... $500 $750 whatever... digital negatives should not be cheap. Especially not for her.

 

Just because someone hired you to photograph a wedding doesn't mean they are entitled to anything other than you showing up and photographing.

 

WITHOUT A CONTRACT YOU HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE ANY FURTHER SERVICE. YOU WERE HIRED TO PHOTOGRAPH A WEDDING. YOU DID. FURTHER PAYMENT IS REQUIRED IF ANYONE WANTS ANYTHING ELSE. NUFF SAID.

 

That being beaten into the ground, I would create a contract with the bride that sets out whatever package I thought she was getting. Then provide those services as a good business practice.

[alec_myers]

'Who gets them? I haven't the slightest idea."

 

Sure - but why shouldn't they both have them? A photographer can give images away if they please, can't they?

[joshroot]

<i>"The WP called me today and is asking me to help her! She wants me to make up a fake invoice for her to hide the kickback she TOOK from my pay. So basically she wants me to lie and say I got paid more than I did to hide the fact that she took the liberty of deducting $1000 from my fee. And she said she is waiting to get the images from me."</i>

<p>

That is an awful idea. I'm particularly surprised that she would even ask since you are out the $1000. I wouldn't have to sleep on anything. I know exactly where I would tell her to stick that "invoice".

[steve_c.5]

Since all of the monies paid for this event come from the COUPLE or their family members, THEY are the ones who are most likely to sue either or both of you for wrongdoing or scullduggery. Keep your own nose clean, and be above-board with the bride or couple themselves. You don't have to necessarily throw the WP under the bus (though she deserves it), but you can at least be honest with the couple. State for the record what your fees are, what money you have received, and what you are providing for that fee. Then give the bride the photos. The WP's actions and lies will become readily apparent, and you won't have to say a word.

 

Keep your own nose clean and you won't go wrong.