Post Ceremony Group Formals

[jared_hernandez]

I am curious what other photographers do for group formal shots after the

ceremony. I am all for doing a full wedding party shot, a shot with bride

family, a shot with groom family. But anything else I just hate doing, I feel it

is a waste of time and annoying to set up.

 

A past wedding I shot they had me do every variation possible. They had a huge

extended family group shot on both sides. Grandparent shots on both sides.

Pictures with just the siblings. Pictures with parents and siblings. You name it

and we did it.

 

Does anyone state in the contract they only do immediate family and anything

else is done at the reception? If so, how do you state that in a contract?

 

Or do you ust suck i up and do every shot they want?

 

I really do not care to do them at all, but I want to see what other

photographers do. I am not there to do family portrait sessions. I am a little

bitter still haha. I'll calm down.

 

Thanks!

[russ_konrad]

What is your main concern during a wedding shoot?

 

If it is your comfort and/or what you want to shoot - you need to go shoot something else. Go shoot landscapes, seniors, ANYTHING else!

 

If it is making sure the couple get all the shots that they want - then you would have never posted this question.

 

I find it rather amusing that people want to shoot weddings - yet they complain about what is required of a wedding photographer!

[marcphotography]

You do the shots that they want in the amount of time you have available between the ceremony and reception. If you get done with formals and you have no time for anything else you can let them worry about that.

[jared_hernandez]

Seriously. Do you need to be sarcastic about it? I am just asking a question about formal shots after a ceremony. I know for the most part I need to suck it up and just do it, but I also know there is a time constraint and you need to make time to have pictures of the bride and groom alone. If you are spending all your time shooting these extended family shots and small variation shots you are wasting time. So I am just wondering what other photographers do in that circumstance. Do you only do immediate family. Do you state anything like that in the contract? If so, how? No need to be rude and say I shouldn't be in wedding photography.

[bill_ashley2]

I agree in principle with Russ and his comments. However, his "delivery" was certainly off-

base.

 

You asked an honest question.

You didn't ask to be pounced upon by someone who doesn't know you, will never know

you, and wasn't personally invited to reply to your request for info. The question was put

out for general consumption.

 

IMHO, there's simply too much of this "stuff" going on in this forum. Civility is not the tone

taken enough.

And that's a reflection on all of us......

[jared_hernandez]

You know, I agree with Russ as well. I know I am being selfish about those formal pictures and it is my job to serve my clients needs.

 

But at the same time there is a time constraint. I only have a certain amount of time to shoot after the ceremony so the wedding party party can get to the reception.

 

I cannot spend time alone with the bride and groom and get the shots they will really enjoy if I am setting up group shots of all these extended family mixed shots and variations.

 

So at what point do I say "no" or we will do them at the reception. Do photographers state that in the contract, if so how?

 

I am attempting to explain my point of view better b/c I know I sounded harsh earlier towards group formal shots. They do bug me b/c I feel I am there to be more artistic and not there to make sure everyone doesn't blink and smiles. But I know I am going to do them regardless b/c it will make my clients happy. I just want to know how photographers explain their time frame and if they limit those pictures at all.

 

Sorry for the repetition.

[russ_konrad]

I apologize if you didn't like my "tone".

<p>

But the point is still there. Formals have always been - and will always be a very important part of wedding photography. If taking them causes you to be <b>"bitter"</b> (your own word), then perhaps you should consider other photography.

<p>

<b>"...If you are spending all your time shooting these extended family shots and small variation shots you are wasting time...."</b>

<p>

Again - wasting WHO's time? The bride and groom obviously want these pictures. You are working for them and taking pictures that THEY want.

<p>

YOUR entire "tone" in your first post and your second post is of how these formals interfere in what YOU want to do. Perhaps you need to place the needs and wants of your customers above your needs and wants and this question will work itself out.

[sfdgs]

I have to agree with what Russ said. People are investing their money into your services and it's up to you to provide what they are paying for. I do have a checklist that I give to the couple when we meet so that they can get an idea of what will be shot. I also ask them to list all the possible groups they may want so that I can plan our time for formals accordingly. If they are wanting more pictures than time will allow for, I make them aware of that beforehand so that we can make a tentative schedule of the day that will work for all of us.

[russ_konrad]

We always communicate how much time the formals will take and we usually prefer to do split formals - formals with the bride and groom separate before the ceremony and then full group shots after.

 

We also communicate that we want to take some romatic shots of the bride and groom between the ceremony and reception. Sometimes if the venue works we do these at the reception.

 

Communication is the key. As long as the bride and groom realize how much time everything will take - they can be the ones who will end up deciding the priority of the shots that you will take.

[brooke_moore]

We do need to get over ourselves! The day is about family the whole family not just the bride and groom.

Yes it is nice to have endless variations of the bride and groom but shortly after the event it is the other people who are the most important.

Balance is what makes the best day. Give clients some options like doing the big groups right after then breaking for bride and groom time and following up with others at the reception.

The more I am in the business the more I see that the family images are important. If you do nice groups then they will be purchased and promote your business.

The bride and groom are two people one client but the whole extended family is the potential for dozens of clients down the road.

I have one family who I have photographed all the sibs, the cousins and a lot of pals and they all say "we really want the huge family shot on the dance floor like you did for..." It pays to explore what people are asking for and make it work for you.

Ask your clients to pre organize a bit for you so someone rounds everyone up and keeps it moving. These shouldn't take too much time and a little laughter and flattery will help everyone to be in a better mood about it.

Brooke

[jared_hernandez]

You are correct, it was a selfish tone. I tried to change it in my post before this to explain it a bit better.

 

I am really just wanting to know how photographers deal with time and how or if the explain to clients that we only have time for certain group formal shots.

 

I may be answering my own question. But thanks Russ for our opinion.

[jared_hernandez]

Thanks everyone who responded. Those answers really help and is what I was looking for. I do need to get over myself. I just needed to hear it from others first.

 

Communication is key, and I know that I should plan beforehand what shots they bride and groom have in ind so I can be prepared for it.

 

Thanks again.

[sky blue]

Charge appropriately for your services and joy will return to your task of shooting weddings.

 

A couple with a small immediate family should not be paying the same as a couple with a large extended family. If you require more time for the shots, perhaps you can add an additional photographer to their bill in order to get the shots they want and cover for the service you provide.

[surfidaho]

Howdy!

 

Russ generally has useful information to convey, but I wish he could do so without being confrontational.

 

Have you ever considered offering the B&G the option of doing all the formals ahead of time? I have found that if you "sell" this approach properly, most people will sign up for it:

 

- Flowers and makeup are fresh.

 

- No delay between wedding and reception.

 

- Plenty of time for "fun" shots, romantic shots, any shots.

 

- Origin of bride and groom not seeing each other dates back to arranged marriages, when it was feared that if they met before the wedding, one or the other would skip town.

 

- Features a "first meeting" shoot, where the bride walks up behind groom with his back turned, and we capture the look on both faces and the tender moment that follows when he sees her for the first time in her wedding dress.

 

- If they don't see each other beforehand, the only look we usually capture on the groom's face when he sees the bride for the first time walking down the aisle is "deer in the headlights".

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[picturesque]

Paul--your first meeting idea does not necessarily cut down on the number of altar formals the couple may want. It is a great idea in itself.

 

Jared--two things. First, I agree that in cases where the client asks for altar formals, as a professional, you should smile and do them. Second, there are some things you can do to make them less 'brain eating'. "There are some photographers who put clauses in their contracts re not guaranteeing every requested image and describing the PJ nature of their photography (mostly not beginning photographers, and higher end photographers who can dictate to the client). If you do this, be sure you cover these points with the client before they sign. In any case, even if you don't have these clauses, you can discuss altar formals with the client beforehand. Just say that each set up will take x minutes, on average, and let them figure out the total time they will have to be standing there with a frozen smile and missing the cocktail hour at the reception. Altar formals just plain take up a lot of time, something no one actually wants. You can suggest they prioritize their list, if they have one.

 

As for the things you can do. Standardize your procedure. I have mine set up for a minimum of people getting up and down. I can accommodate requests as well, since I work with one side of the family (large to small and then bridge--both parent sets--and then small to large) and then the other, and ask for any other shots before I dismiss people. Standardize your lighting and walking around, your posing. Everything toward efficiency, which is why I actually prefer doing extended family shots during the altar formals. People are harder to find at the reception, not to mention less cooperative, and you have other things to worry about at the reception.

 

You might not think you are there to do family portrait sessions, but your client might believe that is one of the reasons they hired you. Being clear about this from the beginning and good communication, as always, are key.

[surfidaho]

Howdy!

 

Nadine, you're quite right about the number of photos. I usually end up shooting even more photos when I do the formals ahead of time, but I shoot them under MUCH less pressure, so it's less of a chore overall.

 

By the way, thanks for the compliment, but it's worth noting that most of my "great ideas" are actually stolen from other people. ;^<)>

 

I read Jared's post as being specific to formals after the ceremony, which I probably hate doing even more than he does. Doing them ahead of time is much easier not only for me, but also for my subjects.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[kiva]

Jared, all great suggestions above.

 

I'd add this: ask for a list of shots needed by the couple.

 

Ask for it in writing (email) and teach them that each shot could take between 3-5 minutes on average then ask them how much time they have alloted in their time line for formals. Then ask them to "do the math" to figure out the reality of the situation. I ask them to actually put down the names of everyone in every shot ... I sell this idea by telling them it's an easy project to do while watching tv some evening. Suggest that they send the list to all participants or give them a copy at the rehearsal. The more they are involved in the process the greater the likelihood of the formals being a stress on them and you.

 

I also have hints on how to do this type of thing on my website. The point is this: you can educate your families on the process to help minimize the chaos and stress.

 

We all know we can shoot more groupings than one in 3-5 minutes but that's a great figure to use to make up for lost time and mass disorganization by the participants. If you have extra time left over then you can take requests.

 

I also let them know we can get groupings at the reception but I never chase anyone down ... I put it in the contract that if they want a grouping at the reception that the families have to let me know when they are gathered and ready for a photo and I walk to the location and take it. Easy.

[matt_needham]

When I'm discussing the formals with the B & G in planning meetings I point out that it's very easy to come up with very long lists of various combinations of friends and family. I ask them to imagine those photos in an album, framed, or however they think they will use them. Is their album really going to include several dozen different photos of family on the altar (or where ever)? After I get their request list I give them an honest estimate on the time that will be required. I find that very few couples really want to spend much time on formal group portraits, or their schedule just won't allow it. I point out that it should be possible to get more casual, impromptu portraits during the reception. But if they want a lot of formal portraits, and are willing to schedule the time, I'm glad to do them.

[picturesque]

Paul--yes, it is a great idea--I've done it a couple of times myself, but the biggest problem is the people who don't believe the couple when they are asked to be there really early before the ceremony. So you are back to square one--no complete family images. You may not care about this, but the couple will, even though it is their own family that threw the monkey wrench into their plans. Also, some churches don't allow photography much before the ceremony start.

[david_schilling___chicago_]

I completely agree with Russ and his tone. Arranging the family groups efficently and making it fun is what seperates the pros from the rest of the pack.

[aopstudio]

Hello Jared,

Let me add my two cents. I never know what some consider a lot of weddings but I quess I photographed over a hundred of them over the years. I finally quit doing them entirely for the very reason you stated. I would get all of these requests, usually after some of the quests would see the posing, for all kinds of extended groups that were not discussed in pre wedding meetings. I have close to zero amount of assertiveness so would try to accomodate everybody. As a result we took way too much time at the church making quests wait too long (in their minds) for the reception to start. Then I would hear the comments " well the photographer wanted to take all these pictures" What???? So like some of the previous posters said, if you don't like that, get out of the wedding business. I agree, and I did, but I do understand where you are coming from.

[picturesque]

Also, Jared, the romantic shots of the couple alone I normally do some time during the reception, not after the altar formals. And I also do some of the 'separated' formals before the ceremony (bride with maids and family, groom with men and family). You have to spread things out so everyone isn't overwhelmed with formals.

 

I also don't necessarily think that if you find formals not so fun, you should be in some other line of work. There are photographers who dictate what formals they do. Mostly they are high end photographers who can, by their reputation, call the shots, but they do exist.

 

You should also consider that perhaps the reason you are reacting badly to the formals session is because you have not controlled these sessions. It IS possible to control them through client eduction while still giving the clients what they want. Usually the clients are not realistic and have no or little experience with people management, which is basically a big part of the formals. That plus efficient execution can help greatly.

[gpjoell3]

This is a great subject and I am glad that Jared posted it. This is a great subject for two reasons that are near and dear to my heart. First of all, I have been married for 25 years and the best wedding photographer I know was the one who photographed my wedding. I still look at that album and I still admire his work. He inspired me to go into photography more then 15 years ago. I know I am still a rookie.

 

The first reason I think this a great subject is because it is our job to get the photographs that the client wants regardless of how we as professionals feel. The best chance we have to control the situation is during the contract phase. Therefore, if a photographer wants to limit that type and number of poses, then they need to state that up front. If the client does not agree, then they can find another photographers. I am sure there are plenty of brides and grooms that will let the photographer do to them what they want, and that photographer will have no problem making a living.

 

My photographer had full rein of the place and told us where to be and when to be. He set up all the poses and gave us a great album. I can not remember thinking that he was taking too long. I was not really concerned about whether or not the guest was waiting.

 

One of the things I discuss with my bride and groom is what they have planned for their guest while we are doing all the formals. I also discuss the time-line for the photos session. If they have a problem, then I address it early. If not, then I try my best to stick with the plan. It is my goal to get as many of the formal shots that the bride and groom wants. This always add to my bottom line at the end. Just remember, posed formals are controlled by you and candid photo-journalistic shots are controlled by the moment. You can not discuss what photo-journalistic shots you can produce for the couple, therefore, you can not predict whether or not they will want to keep them.

 

The second reason why I am glad this topic came up is so that I can discuss another issue that is near and dear to my heart. With the invention of digital cameras and the fact that everyone has one, more and more people are jumping into the role as photographer. When I retired from the Military, I had options to work for the Government. I decided to do what I have been doing for so many years and what I am so passionate for. I decided to open my photography company. I advertised my business and people came. I showed them my portfolio and listened to there story. I asked them what they wanted me to do based on what they seen from my portfolio. They usually told me to do what I do. This has been working for many years and I stick with it. Now when clients come in, they expect for me to do what I do. They do not dictate. They do not demand. They leave it up to me. I stay true to myself and my work. I love what I do and I do what I love. If I get an unusual request, I accommodate. I embrace the old and I am inspired by the new. I am not in a box and status quo is not the norm. Photography is photography and I feel it is my job and duty to capture the special moments of peoples lives. To preserve time for the future.

 

Now with all that said, I admire photographers like Russ for his brass way of telling it like it is. Nadine for doing all the research for others and presenting it in a professional way. David for being the honest broker. Paul for being so Howdy, and for the rest for giving a darn to the enthusiast here who yearn for answers.

 

George

[surfidaho]

Howdy!

 

There are ways to communicate that do not make people feel small.

 

Here is how I would have phrased Russ Konrad's first post:

 

"Have you considered the customer's point of view? Most relatives at a wedding want a shot with the B&G, so formals do tend to be exhaustive. If you're not comfortable with that, perhaps wedding photography is not for you".

 

Short, sweet, and to the point, without being judgmental or unkind.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[wedding-photography-denver]

Whatever they want is fine.

 

However, during the initial consult, I do remind them of waiting guests and how long it takes for each "group" pose (approx 5mins each). This usually results in a lower amount of formal groups and a more "grip n grin" shots during the reception. I always encourage the guests and family to grab me or my second for a quick shot with <<insert guests name here>> at any time. I am normally asked for somewhere between 1 - 10 of this type of shot. It takes a total of about 5 minutes of the reception time to accomplish that and about 30 - 45 minutes less of formals.

 

Works all around time wise and I find the reception shots are often much happier as everyone is now "having fun".

 

Best, D.