Gitzo Lifetime Warranties??? No, not really

[jorge_gasteazoro3]

Tim I have to disagree with you, suppose a camera store...lets

say "big red" buys 10 tripods from RW and resells them, that is gray

market, as one very knowledgeable friend of mine told me, "if you

bought it from someone other than the authorized US dealer, it is

gray market" Sure, as to the warranty, if I send back my tripod to RW

then he would probably honor the warranty given to him as an EU or UK

authorized dealer, but I am sure they would not touch it the US, even

though it was purchased from an Authorized dealer in the UK, so

everything bought outside of the US, even if the outside dealer

is "authorized" in that region, is gray market because the warranty

wold no be valid here. Here thus is the confusion, and the reason

that begs the question, why are prices so high in the US? if RW is

able to retain these items and sell them at such prices and still

have a warranty in the UK or EU, then why in the US we are paying

double? I beleive Kerry already expressed this question in his answer

to Bob.

I think we all know the answer, the have to pay for salesman, etc...

[jonathan brewer]

I think we're all in agreement about that here. The distributers

are the folks that slap Robert White w/that moniker. I believe it's

been stated here several times, that he provides perfectly good

warranties that are honored at the point of sale. Above and beyond

that, I'll restate again that he'll do whatever is necessary to make

you happy over and above his warranties. He'll back you 100% because

you are a valued customer.

 

<p>

 

There have been some earlier posts about this very point where

some folks have pointed out how unreasonable it is for the distributer

here in the States to refuse to honor these warranties with the claim

that they are 'grey market'.

 

<p>

 

Some folk in their threads have referred to 'grey market' and that

they were going to buy from RW, but I think they were using this as a

generic term, but I don't think they were trying to paint RW with that

brush. I think you are right though, it would be better if we all

quit referring to 'grey market', which is a term the distributers and

dealers have foisted upon us when it suits their purposes.

 

<p>

 

It also goes w/out saying that there are some here in the States

who try to work reasonable deals, RW just has it down to a science.

[bob_salomon2]

" It's just the same as buying something while you ar on vacation

or whatever. Just slightly more incovenient for repairs"

 

<p>

 

Not quite.

 

<p>

 

If you go on a trip and buy something, for your own use on that

trip, it is covered by most U.S. warranties.

 

<p>

 

Of course you can supply a bill of sale showing that it was

picked up in that country while you were on the trip.

 

<p>

 

If you buy something from out of the country that is shipped into

the country from a dealer outside the country then you do not

have warranty coverage in the U.S. in many cases.

 

<p>

 

The foreign dealer does not pay the repair people to do warranty

service in the U.S..

Official importers/distributors supply the warranty.

 

<p>

 

The worldwide warranty, if there is one of course, is supplied by

the factory in the country where the factory is located or where the

dealer is located.

 

<p>

 

So the term gray while meaning merchandise shipped from a

foreign source to a dealer in the US for resale is correct the

terms of the warranty may preclude you from being eligible for

warranty (or any service or parts) if the sale was through a

foreign dealer who shipped the product to you from outside the

US.

 

<p>

 

In that case, like all other warranty cases, the importer is

responsible for the service and in this case the importer is the

person who purchased the merchandise.

 

<p>

 

It is like being self insured. You take the responsibility for

service, damage, etc.

[jonathan brewer]

Bob Salomon......but that does not answer the question of why the

price including the warranty is more here than when you buy somewhere

else? Could you address the difference if price, since this is what

this is all about.

 

<p>

 

Since buying gear is now a global affair, the old days are over,

so what do the manufacturers and distributers plan to do about it?

[tim_atherton2]

Again NO No No! you are still mssing the point!

 

<p>

 

We are NOT talking about someone buying 10 tripods and re-selling

them - yes - that is grey market. Grey market is about re-

distribution.

 

<p>

 

We are talking about single well informed customers (photographers)

chosing to buy directly from a supplier outside the country. That

isn't grey market (actually it's free market! - in this global

economy)

 

<p>

 

Tim A

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>"Bob Salomon......but that does not answer the question of

why the price including the warranty is more here than when you

buy somewhere else? Could you address the difference if price,

since this is what this is all about. "</I><P> Sit down, breathe

slowly and repeat after me: C-A-P-I-T-A-L-I-S-M. if someone

came up with an equivalent product and was able to sell if for

30% less and develop Bogen's massive distribution and

marketing network, Gitzo prices in thrUSA would come down.

[bob_salomon2]

"We are talking about single well informed customers

(photographers) chosing to buy directly from a supplier outside

the country. That isn't grey market (actually it's free market! - in

this global economy) "

 

<p>

 

Didn't say it was.

 

<p>

 

It means that YOU are the IMPORTER and YOU may have to

bear the costs and burdens of warranty repair if you elected to

become the importer by having it shipped to you from overseas

or from another country. Even if you did it without the idea of re-

selling you imported it directly yourself.

[bob_salomon2]

"more here than when you buy somewhere else? Could you

address the difference if price"

 

<p>

 

Has been frequently.

 

<p>

 

When was the last time you were able to merchandise demoed

to you at a US show by a foreign dealer?

When was the last time you called a foreign dealer toll free with

questions?

When was the last time you had any service, other then an item

shipped to you from a foreign dealer?

 

<p>

 

When was the last time you received free literature from a

foreign dealer?

When was the last time you were able to rent merchandise from

a foreign dealer.

 

<p>

 

When was the last time you were able to read a test report or PR

on a product you were interested in that a foreign dealer

supplied?

 

<p>

 

Business has costs. Do you think that rent, utilities, saleries,

sales costs, advertising, promotions, shows, samples, freight,

etc are without cost?

 

<p>

 

If fact just today we were informed by Certified Mail that

Shutterbug is raising their advertising rates as they had a 4.6%

circulation increase by the end of June.

 

<p>

 

Do you think this effects the cost of doing business for a foreign

dealer?

 

<p>

 

BTW, do you think that someone living whereever the dealer is

that does the same thing as you makes more or less then you in

$.

[tim_atherton2]

"It means that YOU are the IMPORTER and YOU may have to

bear the costs and burdens of warranty repair if you elected to

become the importer by having it shipped to you from overseas

or from another country. Even if you did it without the idea of re-

selling you imported it directly yourself."

 

<p>

 

Absolutely - which just about brings us back full circle to where we

started!

 

<p>

 

If you bought an item (the by now mythical Gitzo tripod)for half the

US from a reputable foreign dealer (eg RW), then the few extra

dollars to ship it for warranty repair are still a small price to pay

(and bear in mind the EU already has a much more open system on such

things). I think part of the problem on this is that people in say

Canada or Europe are much more used to purchasing items from abroad

than are people in the US, who are - dare I say it, a little afraid

of the idea. The global market is just taking rather longer to sink

in perhaps.

 

<p>

 

BTW - the international warranty on my Lecia M6, bought in England

when I lived there, was honoured by Leica Canada. But I think, from

comments on other lists about similar issues, trying to get say Nikon

USA to honour the warranty on a Nikon you bought in France while on

vacation, would be a hard fight - doesn't matter where you are

resident, it's where you bought it... Though generally I have found

manufacturers and importers in Canada and Europe, to be more generous

on this(with high end products) than the US, which has always tended

to have something of a closed market in such areas. (again Nikon UK

were happy to deal with my Canadian bought F100 under warranty)

 

<p>

 

Okay - way off topic, so, to bring it back, as 90% of my LF stuff is

bought from abroad, there really isn't too much to worry about in my

experience...

 

<p>

 

Tim A

[jonathan brewer]

I breathe deep all the time, and I've had the profit idea down

pat since about 6, but I still wanted to hear the reasons from the

'horses mouth'.

 

<p>

 

It costs money for the distributers to brush their teeth, so

what?

 

<p>

 

In answer to your question, Robert white did but it wasn't at a

US show.

 

<p>

 

Mr. Cad called

me long distance here from the UK, the next day after my e-mail

inquiring about the Docter Optics 360mm Tessar(which I bought for

$737.00) and the long distance phone call was on them.

 

<p>

 

Robert White himself, the owner, contacted me several times in an

effort to secure me a Toyo 810MII. Sent at least a dozen unsolicted

e-mails to me, to keep me apprised of the situation.

 

<p>

 

Last time I had service on equipment bought here it was for one

of my 35mm cameras, the service dept. fixed the camera off warranty.

Robert fixed a piece of gear for me that I hadn't even bought from

him. I don't rent equipment.

 

<p>

 

It costs everybody money to do business, including Robert White

who has mentioned to me that he does not go after a big profit margin.

A hell of a thing to tell a customer, and I've never heard it from

anybody here. Anything else?

 

<p>

 

Oh yes, answering your last question, I end up with a hell of lot

less money when I buy gear here in the States than when I buy

someplace else, regardless of what they earn in the UK.

 

<p>

 

Somebody thinking you have more money, or make more money(which

doesn't include the kid starting out), isn't a justification for

higher prices and it never will be.

 

<p>

 

Robert White gives you premium service at discount prices despite

his costs. A lot of folks here refuse to do that. Robert White

doesn't lie, a lot of folks here have lied to me straight to my face.

Robert White sends what he promises, always, but I've had people here

agree to sell me one thing, and then send me something else.

 

<p>

 

I was devoted and loyal to only US gear for year. Up until

sometime ago, all I bought was US, and never thought of buying

elsewhere. Though it all I was abused, lied to, bullsh*ted, and

overcharged more times than I should've been.

 

<p>

 

I won't lie, there are good folks here who'll treat you right,

just not enough of 'em. None of them treat me on a consistent basis

like RW does.

 

<p>

 

I knew all this before I asked you, I just wanted to know where

you were coming from, now I know.

[marcus_leonard]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, but hey, 'lifetime warranty', did

you ever wonder which lifetime this is? If it's the product's lifetime

sending back the dead product won't help....

[kerry_thalmann2]

Bob,

 

<p>

 

You're beating a dead horse. I already know it costs money to run a business - whether that business is in the US or Europe. Companies in Europe have to pay their employees, their rent, their utilities, their advertising costs, their freight. In fact, many of these expenses are greater in Europe than here in the US (just compare fuel prices). So, why is it they can sell many items for 30 - 50% less than what we pay here in the States? Obviously, it has nothing (more accurately, "little") to do with import duties or exchange rates. After all, when I look at the prices European dealers charge for US made goods they are nearly identical to the prices here in the US (marginal differences due to fluctuating exchange rates, but generally within a percent or two). However, when I look at many European made goods and some Japanese made goods, they are 30% - 50% less in Europe. Why the huge one-way price discrepancy? If the European manufacturers and dealers can afford to sell the goods for so much less in Europe and still pay their overhead and make a profit, why can't dealers in the US offer comparable prices and still make a similar profit?

 

<p>

 

BTW, to all who have praised Robert White, DITTO, DITTO, DITTO. However, I don't want a dealer here in the US who offers similar prices and a similar level of service to get overlooked. That dealer is Badger Graphic Sales. I've bought products from both Robert White and Badger Graphic Sales and have always been extremely happy with the friendly, knowledgeable service, prompt deliver and great prices. Badger does have a toll free 800 number and always sends me product brochures for anything I request. And although I don't believe Robert White maintains a toll free line for US customers, I've never felt the need for one. They have always answered my email inquiries promptly (the only delays attributed to the 8 hour time difference between West Coast US and Poole), thoroughly and accurately - and yes, they have sent me product literature when requested. Both of these dealers are models for doing business in the 21st century. They maintain web sites with pricing and product info, respond promptly and knowledgeably to both phone and email inquiries, offer global shipping and globally competitive prices. Between the two of them, I have little reason to shop elsewhere when purchasing new large format equipment.

 

<p>

 

Kerry

[jonathan brewer]

Yes..... .Ries and S.K. Grimes, and others will treat you right

while charging you LESS money than others which helps all of us, NO

MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY SOMEBODY THINKS YOU'VE GOT!

[jorge_gasteazoro3]

To borrow your phrase Tim, NO NO NO, free market place has nothing to

do with gray market! Sure, those of us who are not afraid to fix a

tripod don't care about the warranty, but some people do, and it is

the reason the "authorized" dealers get away with what they charge,

but again please read my sentence carefully, "if you bought it from

someone else other than a US authorized dealer it is a gray market

item" It has nothing to do with how great RW is, we all agree with

that, given I choice I get it from RW or Badger Graphics, but then

again BG is NOT an authorized dealer for many items they sell, so you

see, although BG is a great company which I greatly endorse, they

carry and sell gray market. Although the term does not have a good

connotation, I think what Dan and all the rest of us want to know is,

why Bogen did not honor the life time warranty if they bought the

authorized dealership of Gitzo? and second why are "we" in the US

having to pay twice as much for the same warranty as in other

countries? considering those other dealers ALSO have business

expenses, payrolls, etc, just as the dealers here.

[bob_salomon2]

"why Bogen did not honor the life time warranty if they bought the

authorized dealership of Gitzo?"

 

<p>

 

Bogen bought nothing.

 

<p>

 

Vinton bought Manfrotto, Gitzo and Bogen.

 

<p>

 

Bogen is owned by Vinton.

The "lifetime" warranty was not from Gitzo. It was from Karl Heitz.

 

<p>

 

Bogen and Vinton and Manfrotto did not buy Karl Heitz.

They did not buy a company offering a "lifetim" warranty.

 

<p>

 

They bought some factories and have their own warranty

policies.

 

<p>

 

And, as someone else pointed out, what lifetime? Your lifetime,

the distributor's lifetime or the product's lifetime?

 

<p>

 

Was the warranty for manufacturing defects or for failure to

perform after being well used and defective from wear and tear?

 

<p>

 

Are you really asking about a warranty against manufacturing

defects or about repairs from use that may be covered by an

insurance policy?

[jorge_gasteazoro3]

Ok Bob, I think this is a technicality, in the end whoever acquired

the Gitzo dealership had the choice to honor the previous arragents

the Gitzo dealer had agreed to. For example, although I would never

buy a Zone VI camera, I do think their darkroom equipment is without

par, and I bought my enlarger, timer, developer timer, print

positioning jig, etc, all the the time Fred Picker was the owner. At

that time Zone VI had a lifetime warranty for the original owner.

Subsequently when Calumet purchased ZOne VI, they dropped the

lifetime warranty but still honored this commitment for those of us

who had purchased from the original Zone VI. I had a couple of

occasions where I called Calumet and asked them to honor this

lifetime warranty on my developer timer, they were glad to do it and

even paid for the shipping back to me. Needless to say, the order in

which I do my business is, Badger graphics (great price, great

service), RW (great price and service), Calumet (not so great price

Great service), B&H (not so great price, not so great service).

If I have a choice to deal with Calumet and/or B&H I always go with

calumet, even when Calumet's price is a little bit higher, the

reason.....SERVICE.... I think with respect to Dan, Bogen might have

saved a few buck in the warranty work, but have lost more money by

loosing a customer, specially one that keeps falling off of cliffs

and breaking tripods....:-)))

[tim_atherton2]

"Ok Bob, I think this is a technicality, in the end whoever acquired

the Gitzo dealership had the choice to honor the previous arragents

the Gitzo dealer had agreed to".

 

<p>

 

Oops - missing the point again i think. Because in this particular

case, no-one aquired the US distributorship. Vinton bought Gitzo AND

Bogen. They own Gitzo and distribute it through Bogen - whhich they

also own - part of the same group of companies. In effect they did

away with a US dealership (along with any warranties that particular

dealership had...). Dumping a dealership is rather different than

buying out a "Manufacturer" (if you want to describe ZoneVI in that

way). Gitzo never offered the warranty and they still dont.

[tim_atherton2]

PS - another thought on this - why would gitzo decide to put

a "lifetime" warranty on their products and compete with themselves

(ie Manfrotto) in the US? They already own what must be the lions

share of the market - who are they competing agains? Slik? Velbon?

not much competitions. Ries? Small numbers and over priced (seen

their latest huge price leap! + they have never replied to my

enquiries about getting a aprt for my old Ries Tripod - so much for

customer service...). Gitzo in the US (which is what Bogen is) have

no need to do a "lifetime warranty" - it's not a customer service

thing, it's just a marketing tool, and they don't need it now.

[jorge_gasteazoro3]

If they own Gitzo and distribut it through Bogen then BOGEN is the

official US distribuitor...no?

As such bogen either as a divison of Vinton, and with their approval

could have honored the promises made by the previous distribuitor in

order to continue GOOD SERVICE.....

Tim, I think you are the one missing the point, it is almost as if

you enjoy paying more for the same items that people pay half as much

in other countries. Or that you think their business model is the

appropriate one. If so then I guess no amount of my post will covince

you that as customers we should get better treatment and actually a

little more respect for our intelligence.

 

<p>

 

Again, these business decisions are made with profit in mind, but

one thing is to profit another to rape and pilage....when I see RW

with a price for a tripod that is half of what I would have to pay

here, and the only "reason" for this is the US warranty, well I think

they should at least try to continue good service so people at

least "feel" they have gotten something for their money.

 

<p>

 

So in the end, whether is Vinton, Bogen, etc, someone ultimately is

responsible for these items and their warranty, and as a continued

good service and good will towards previous customers, they should

have honored the warranty. If I choose to accept your point of view

then I guess we are all in our own since you seem to beleive that

Bogen's behavior was correct.

[dan_smith]

Since I am the one who brought this up and some have emailed me off

list asking about how hard I am on gear, maybe I ought to respond. I

have cracked one ground glass since getting my first LF camera in the

early 70's. It is still on my Ikeda Anba 5x7, scotch taped

together... one of these days I will get around to replacing it I am

sure. I did drop a 600 f/4 Nikon lens when the tripod thread came

loose somehow, bent the shade & gummed up the focus ring, but all was

fixable. Not a warranty problem and I got it fixed OK. Have dropped a

few Nikon bodies as the lens mounts start to wear. Replaced the

mounts & the problem goes away. Broke two handles on the Velbon 270

pro head (tripod head... one of the products Velbon makes that I

would buy any time as it works even with the 600 f/4 or an 8x20 View

Camera). This is the head Velbon has fixed both times even though I

would not have expected them to under any warranty. I was surprised

when they did it the first time, much less the second.

The Gitzo head just pissed me off, it is so damned 'Kodak' of them.

 

<p>

 

I am very glad though to see the discussion of 'USA' and 'grey

market' and 'goods purchased out of country & brought back home'. I

have run into this as well as many of you have. Kodak was the culprit

the first time with film bought in Germany with processing paid...

seems I ran out of film while shooting F1 racing in Germany & got a

few rolls there. Paid a premium for it I thought but the processing

included made up for it. Shot most of it there & on Monaco & then

came home with 2 rolls & guess who refused to process it. Yep, The

Yellow Peril.

 

<p>

 

I generally purchase used equipment because much of what I buy I

don't feel the need for warranties or guarantees. When I do buy brand

new I generally buy from solid outfits like Calumet or pro stock

houses where I know the owners. The Gitzo's were some of the few

items I have bought new from a dealer that I didn't know personally.

Some gear had been stolen & I needed replacements immediately so I

bought brand new stuff, from a US Dealer, with the 'full lifetime

warranty'.

 

<p>

 

Right.

 

<p>

 

Lester Bogen, may you slip down a bit on that damn tripod you sit on.

[r.l.__mac__mcdonald]

Some people just enjoy getting SCREWED when making a purchase! They

are usually the same people who enjoy being VICTIMS. Well, for me I

don't give Rats Ass if you call it Gray, Black, Blue, and Aqua

Marine.... It is not how I want to do Business! If I have to go

overseas to do business my way, then so be it. I don't mind being

treated like a customer, even if it does take a few days longer. I

get that many more days of satisfaction knowing they really want my

business, this time and the next time. And for me it's a lot more

fun than being told by some Bimbo at B& H that the part that should

be cover by warranty will be 8-10 weeks away and my cost will be

$35.00 plus shipping and we will have to have your credit card #

before we do anything "SIR" ....

 

<p>

 

 

Once Screwed and Victimized, NEVER TWICE!

 

<p>

 

R.L. (Mac) McDonald

[paul_owen]

This whole issue boils down to one thing - GREED! Some

dealers are greedy and rip off their "customers", others,

thankfully, are the complete opposite. If RW is selling at a small

profit he is making in the long run with the business that

satisfied customers give him. I've used his services for 90% of

my equipment requirements over the last 10 years or so and will

continue to do so. BUT he doesn't do this out of "LOVE", he is a

businessman and appears to be conducting business in a way

that benefits all, especialy RW!! If he can do it and make a

profit....I rest my case!!

[jeffrey_scott]

Interesting. Back in the mid 80's I was a salesman at on of the big

camera stores in Los Angeles where the manufacturer's reps would do

seminars on their products and then usually take us out for sometimes

extravagent meals( bribes? ). Karl Heitz gave one such seminar

wherein he told us that if our customers could not afford to buy a

Gitzo tripod then make sure we sold them a Bogen ! This was at a time

he had nothing to do with Bogen, Manfrotto or any other connection

that I know of, he just wanted us to make sure the customer got a good

product. So this is how Bogen repays the man who had nothing to gain

by saying such a thing?

 

<p>

 

By the way I have a Gitzo catalog from that same era and it says

"Full Gitzo Warranty Buyer Protection Plan For

Life-Plus Reincarnations". In the instruction manual I have for Gitzo

Products it also says "Lifetime Warranty For Defective Materials And

Workmanship", "You are covered by the full Gitzo warranty buyer

protection for life - plus reincarnations. If it's a Gitzo it's under

warranty: you do not need any warranty card, sales slip or other

proofs." Now granted, both the catalog and instructions do have Karl

Heitz's name on them since he was the distributor at the time but

nowhere does it say "Karl Heitz Warranty" only "Gitzo Warranty"; to me

that implies Gitzo the Company warrants the product, not the

distributor. Plus this is a Gitzo catalog, not a Karl Heitz catalog

featuring Gitzo products !

[bob_salomon2]

"Lifetime Warranty For Defective Materials And Workmanship"

 

<p>

 

So how does that imply that it is covered by someone falling

down and breaking it?

 

<p>

 

falling down scree and breaking handles is not a manufacturing

defect.

 

<p>

 

It might be repaired/replaced as a business decision if

someone politly spoke to management and was complimentary

about the excellent use he has received over the years from the

product.

 

<p>

 

But this by definition is not a defect. Insurance is more useful

here.

[jeffrey_scott]

I agree with you on that Bob, I was just commenting on the general

thread running through this on whether Bogen should honor the Gitzo

warranty to early customers, before they distributed the product. If

I broke something that was not obviously a defect as such I wouldn't

expect it to be covered under warranty. Actually I have a Gitzo 226

and 224 that have been through quite a lot over the years and still

function very well; I'd recommend a Gitzo any day.

 

<p>

 

On another matter but one that is relavant I think, is the Linhof

Technika III I own that I sent to the official service center(SC),

which shall not be named, to have a new bellows installed. When the

camera was returned to me after two and a half months at the last

minute before leaving on a trip with it, I found the bellows was not

properly installed and I also found a part on the back was broken.

The SC claimed the part was in that condition when the package was

opened; I know that not to be the case. After a lengthy claim against

them, the SC did not dispute the case. I reglued the bellows in place

(the improper installation referred to above) and found someone to

custom make the broken part, and the SC lost out on an extremely

healthy profit($ 472.00 to replace the bellows !?). The camera is an

earlier one that, with the exception of the bellows, no parts are

available for; since the part could not be replaced it allegedly seems

that it was denied that the fault was theirs. If they had owned up to

the alleged infraction, they would have all their money minus $35.00

for getting the part remade. Is that Good customer service? Is this

something that would want me to buy another Linhof or Rollei, or any

other product they service for the distributor, who I think you are

intimately familiar with? I sincerely hope that this SC gets their

act together because they service the finest products made which

deserve a better reputation than this.