Advice on LF camera for architecture

[david_thrower]

Hi everyone

 

I've been reading the posts here for a quite a while as I am about to but a

large format camera and I am trying to learn as much as I possibly can. I've

also bought a book by Roger Hicks on LF photography which is very good indeed.

 

My question is this : I shoot architecture and interiors for a living but

currently use an EOS 5D with a variety of L lenses including a tilt and shift

24mm lens and also an RB67 for when I get the chance to use film.

 

I now want to move up to a large format view camera with full movements for

architectural photography. I won't be using the camera for product photography

so the movements I need are to correct converging verticals etc.

 

I aim to use the camera with film for a few months until I'm somewhere near

competant with it then I aim to buy a digital back for it.

 

I am trying to decide upon either a Linhof Technikardan 45S or an Arca Swiss

6x9 FC Metric. I have also been offered a used Toyo 45G with lenses.

 

The other camera I have considered is the Fuji GX680 - but I realise this only

has front movements of 15mm.

 

Any help or advice would be most welcome.

 

Best regards

 

Dave Thrower

[brucecahn]

A view camera permits the use of a large number of lenses, so I suggest you forget about the Fuji. The Technikardan is a good possibility. Also consider the Master Technika 3000. It will take very wide lenses and has the movements you need, without having to unfold the camera. Another very interesting possibility is the Ebony 45SU, a wide angle and all purpose non folder with all movements except base tilts. In the interest of disclosure, I am an Ebony, Linhof, & Arca dealer.

[mike_earussi1]

If you plan on getting a digital back then you might prefer the Arca Swiss 6x9 in the long run for its compactness.

[ronald_moravec1]

Get a 6x9 camera unless you can afford a full 4x5 digital back. My experience with a 90mm SA with Calumet 6x7 film back was no more than ok. 4x5 lenses do not have the resolution to make big prints from partial neg or cropped sensors. I had 16x20 prints made from them and they looked ok, not great. The average viewer would be happy.

 

A pro lab made the prints for my company and i enlarged the negs at home and made sectional prints that were no better than what they did.

[ellis_vener_photography]

You want rear movements as well so I think the Fuji 680 won't be right for you. Rear movements control perspective rendering and depth of focus distribution. Front movements only control depth of focus distribution. For architecture , you need bot hfront and rear movements in my experience. Mostly I prefer to use just rear movements if I have the choice.

 

I prefer the yaw free base movements of the Arca-Swiss and the Sinar P and C series cameras over the axis tilt design of the the Linhof. you can make the Linhof a yaw free camera by tipping over 90 degrees but that is silly.) Other than that the Linhof TK45s is a fine choice.

 

The reason I prefer the yaw free movements of the Arca and the Sinar is that it speeds up the process of compound ( swing and tilt or swing, tilt and rise ) movements when these are needed.

 

Do note that the Arca-Swiss 69FC is set up for medium format camera . If you really want 4x5 than you'll need the Arca-Swiss 45FC,but unless you plan on working with 4x5 film or a 4x5 BetterLight scanning back, the A-S 69FC is a fine choice.

 

In the interest of disclosure, I don't sell any cameras except my used ones.

[michael_briggs2]

I have a Linhof TK45S and sometimes do exterior architecture as an amateur. It works very well for this. The most common movement that you will want to use is front rise, sometimes a lot of it; this is the easiest way to correct converging verticals. For full convenience for architecture, a camera should have a wide range of movements, front and back, and interchangeable bellows to use a wide range of focal length lenses to their full potential.

 

I've never used a yaw-free camera, but this issue seems over-rated to me, at least for non-product photography. It arises in a complicated sequence that I rarely use: tilt camera, then tilt standards back to vertical, the apply swing. See the figure at http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/Product_Resources/largeformat3.jsp#yaw and the previous discussions at http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00MK96 and http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003BKj.

 

I suggest not worrying too much about your first camera. As you learn your needs, you can refine your camera choice. Large format lenses aren't proprietary to a camera brand, you can move them to another camera by mounting them on different lens boards.

[frankz]

David:

 

I'm a Sinar fan, mainly because of the "system" approach they have taken. The on-axis movements take a lot of the nonsense out of a setup and all motion is geared; in addition, virtually anything you may care to hang on a Sinar LF at a later date probably already has an adapter available to fit the system from a source somewhere.

[keith_clementson]

And don't forget that you can simulate any movements a camera lacks by angling the camera

appropriately. You then apply the other movements accordingly.

 

In the interest of disclosure, I ... I regret that I don't have anything to disclose at this time.

[david_thrower]

Hi Everyone

 

Thankyou all so much for such informative answers - I really do appreciate every one of your posts.

Thanks to this post I have now totally ruled out the Fuji GX680 - I nearly had in my own mind anyway but now I know to move on.

 

I really love the idea of shooting 5x4 but to be honest with myself I am so busy with work (luckily!) that I want a fairly quick learning curve so a 6x9 back solution followed in future by a digital back is very tempting.

 

I think I'm going to go for the Arca Swiss 6x9FC but I will check out the Sinars first!.

 

I am looking forward to joining in the LF forum from now on. I've been on photo.net for ages and contribute to the Canon FD and Leica forums now and again but the high standard of information here in this forum is fantastic.

 

Thanks once again one and all.

 

David

[ellis_vener_photography]

Frank,

 

Sinar uses an off-axis tilt and swing mechanical designs on the P and X cameras and the rear (P) standard of the Sinar C.

 

The Sinar F is a base tilt design.

[profhlynnjones]

The best architectural view camera ever made is the one I invented, the Original Calumet CC402. It will permit lenses on flat boards from 47mm through 150mm or 165mm. You will have to search it out used as the grey model, not the one with heavy black bellows which the new owners were too stupid to use the correct bellows.

 

I'm on my 3rd one, the first two have been stolen by other photographers who realized the value of it. My guess is that it will sell for less than $250.

 

Lynn

[profhlynnjones]

I forgot to tell you that this camera was called the "Wide Field camera", obviously my boss who named it wasn't a photographer, it was certainly a wide angle view camera.

 

Lynn again

[bob_laubach]

I too am an architectural photographer and use a Sinar F2 which has asymmetrical tilt axis like the Sinar P (and the C which was a P rear standard and an F front standard). I agree that the system design is best - allowing use of additional standard(s) for macro, using a second bellows as a dark cloth on rear standard or as a compendium bellows/lens hood on front. And Sinar's tilt axis is yaw-free which gives you more use of any lens's circle of coverage. With a yaw=free camera you won't "run out of lens" as fast with more extreme movements. But architecture is all about the lenses - 90mm, 75mm, 65mm. With your EOS 5d i'd suggest trying Sigma's full=frame 12-24mm. While it's not a PC lens, put a bubble level on your hot shoe and keep close to vertical and correct verticals a bit if necessary in photoshop. Many architectural photographers are using EOS 1ds, EOS 5d or Nikon D3 full frame dslr's. Also you can shoot 4x5 view camera with corrective movements and then scan digitally for further photoshop work. Use the best of both worlds! BTW Sinar (pronounced sin-are, not seye-nar or See-nar unless you are Swiss or German) is named for S - Studio, IN - Industrial, N - Nature/Landscape, Ar - Architecture, A - Advertising, and R - Reproduction. And above all, get a bag bellows for your shorter focal length lenses to allow movements (regular pleated bellows will bind up at short focal lengths with movements used!) I recently bought a Sinar F2 on ebay in mint shape with fresnel lens and Rodenstock Sironar 210mm w/ accessories for $500.00 - the F2 is a current Sinar model and sells new for $2721 and $300 more for the fresnel lens! Many good Sinar deals on ebay, craigslist, etc.

[Troll]

Since it appears that you intend to print digitally, I see no reason to don the hair shirt of a view camera. If your 5D doesn't give you large enough prints, get a IDs3 and continue using your T/S lenses if you can't get enough image control with Photoshop.

[kelly_flanigan1]

The old digital scan backs I use are 7x10cm for a 4x5 camera; dont assume a full frame digital 4x5 back exists. Like "non full frame 35mm" a 4x5 digital back is cropping; thus a 90mm lens is not so wide anymore on a 4x5 camera; with a digital back.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Here I have not found any problems with using even vintage lenses with a 4x5 scan back. The real pickle is your workflow compared to shot an image compared to a canon 5d is slower. Even if you scan film you have the lab to deal with; and then scanning. There are also folks who use a MF digital back on a 4x5; and then use a very short lens with alot of coverage; one of the new digital lenses.

[kelly_flanigan1]

The real pickle is your workflow shooting an image with an LF rig is slower than a Canon 5d.

[jimsimmons]

David, I shoot architecture with an Arca Swiss F-Metric. 4x5, and I love it. The Metric features geared movements for rise and shift, which I find to be very helpful with the precision that architecture requires. It also means faster shooting. I'm sure you would like the 6x9 model. Because A-S cameras are modular, you can always add a 4x5 standard and film holder (and tapered bellows) at a later time.

 

But I'm quite happy shooting roll film holders in my 4x5 body. I use the Toyo 6x7 holder mostly but also have a Horsman 6x7 holder. The Toyo is bulkier, but feels more substantial to me. The major drawback between 4x5 and 6x7 is size. I use the 90mm Super Angulon XL for most 4x5 work and quite a bit of 6x7 work, but its back lens diameter is very large, and it may not work well inside the smaller bellows of the tapered 6x9 bellows. Bottom line, it's easy to go down from 4x5 to MF, but expensive to go up from 6x9 to 4x5.

[michael_briggs2]

Some considerations re whether to get a 6x9 cm or 4x5 in LF camera: have you priced the single-shot MF digital backs, versus the larger scanning backs (e.g., Better Light)? Scanning backs have difficulties with moving subjects, but that won't be an issue with some architecture photos. 4x5 might be easier to learn with because of the larger image on the ground glass and the large size of the movements.

[frankz]

Ellis Vener:

 

Thanks for the correction - I took too much for granted.

 

Yes - a Sinar F or F2 will drive one bonkers trying to focus it. P, P2, C or X is the way to go for simplicity.

[david_schwartz6]

Bill Mitchell -- a point of info for me -- I thought that the point of using a view camera for architecture is that you use the tilts on front and back standards in order to correct for perspective issues associated with standard fixed SLR technology....can Photoshop really deal well with these issues? (I am an ignoramus when it comes to Photoshop.....)

[david_thrower]

Hi Guys

 

Yet more great posts and info - thankyou!.

 

The issue for me is not print size or speed. I have been shooting architecture full time for 5 years and I use a 17-40mm lens or 24mm t/s lens at present for wide angle work. The problem is that I still need to angle the camera up at times for tight interiors and large building and I spend hours in Photoshop correcting verticals. I use DXO which does have a "keystone correction" feature but it is very difficult to get things spot on so I have to fine tune in Photoshop.

As I have 3-4 shoots per week I spend all weekend working to catch up in Photoshop. I really want to be able to use a view camera to get my composition and vertical corrections done at the time of the shoot. A slower shooting process would in fact help as the temptation with digital slr's is to work too quickly and take too many pictures resulting in yet more post processing work.

 

Print size with the 5D is great to be honest. I did an exhibition in London a few weeks ago whereby I had 30 inch by 20 inch prints made (using some interpolation with Genuine Fractals) and they looked very sharp.

 

After reading a previous post about the 6x9 Arca Swiss I do agree that a 5x4 camera would give me more options as I could fit a 5x4 back to it as well as a 120 back.

 

I nearly bought a Linhoff Techikardan yesterday but I'm still not sure which way to go.

 

Anyway thanks again for the suggestions.

 

Best regards

 

David Thrower