Leica IIIf considerations

[jdleffler]

I have a question about a fogged lens. I sold a Leica IIIf on eBay. (I suppose I

should have offered it to a more discerning and appreciative audience here on

Photo.net.) I take great pride in offering only the best when I part with

something and the buyer paid about $600 for the camera and many nice accessories

that came with it (this seemed a reasonable price). I loved that beautiful Leica

camera and, although I am not a professional as many here, I considered it a

beautiful example. (I sold a IIIg at the same time and the buyer was thrilled.)

Nevertheless, at the time I sold the IIIf the lens certainly looked clean and

clear to me. After the buyer received the camera in January, and subsequently

shipped it to Hong Kong, he is just now publicly decrying that the camera is

old, my pictures unclear and there was fog in the lens. I am appalled. Could

shipping a camera to Hong Kong cause a lens to fog. I'm distressed that this has

happened and I would like to better understand how it could have happened and

how to avoid any possibility of it ever happening again. I enclose pictures of

the Leica and the lens. Can this type of lens be cleared of fog easily or is the

problem deeper and more complex? Any assistance would be appreciated.

 

Sincerely, David Leffler<div></div>

[jdleffler]

And here is the back.<div></div>

[adrian bastin]

David, did you inspect the lens by shining a small light into it while looking in the other end ? That shows up fogging that is otherwise invisible but which will have an effect on performance.

[adrian bastin]

The lens can probably be cleaned chemically by a good technician with the right equipment to reassemble it properly. It should cost about half the value of this lens in good condition.

[michael_darnton1]

OK, the clue here is the complaint that "the camera is old". Uh, YES--It IS old, and it looks from the pix to be in great shape, for a 60 year old piece. I think the customer is a whiner. If he wanted a new camera, he should have bought a Nikon D300 or something.

 

You don't need to own his problems unless he's right, and it sounds like he isn't, from what you're saying.

[simon_bruxelles]

I have bought more than a few vintage Leica lenses from ebay and I don't think a single

one was completely clear of fogging. I started off buying only lenses that were described

as clear and unfogged however I soon discovered that these were just as likely to look like

the bottom of an old milk bottle as the ones for which the seller made no claims at all.

The fact is if you intend to use a vintage Leica lens unless it has been cleaned in the past

five years you need to factor in the cost of a service. Some sellers deliberately mislead

but far more simply don't see the fogging or believe it won't have any effect on the final

image. Not true! It does, even a little fogging can ruin a photograph though of course it's

also possible to work with it and use it to enhance the picture.

In this case I would not feel obliged to make a refund to the purchaser. Remind him that

all Leica equipment of this age is likely to need a service and that you made no claim that

it had been done. If he had a problem he sould have aproached you first rather than

complaining loudly in public.

Good luck, Simon

[jdleffler]

As usual the advice and support I get here is stellar. I have so many more outstanding lenses and camera accessories that I can't let this get me down. These things are made to be cared for and used and I appreciate the encouragement and the advice. I've got a bright MagLite that I am going to use (Thanks Adrian) so that I can make a more accurate assessment and offer a better lens description in any future listing. Which begs a question: Is there a good way to photograph a lens so that someone like yourselves can make a judgment with a reasonable hope of a considered outcome. What I mean to say is, if you can't hold it in your hand, what would you like to see in a photograph that would assist you in making a informed decision in purchasing a lens online?

 

Cheers,

David

[mohir_ali]

I always give a no questions asked refund policy, minus shipping costs. I've only had a couple of returns in of 10 years of activity.

[charles_stobbs3]

Is it possible that changes in cabin/luggage compartment pressurization could allow several change of air or whatever fumes were present to seep into the lens? Airplane cabins were pressurized to about 8000 feet (I think starting soon there is a new regulation). I don't know how luggage compartments are pressurized or heated. From what I read of air quality in Hong Kong the final landing could have introduced some bad stuff into a cold lens.

[aplumpton]

David, to avoid future problems, you might describe the lens condition a bit more

rigorously (although I don,t know how you actualy described it). Note that when

shining a light through the lens, the haze is not always seen with a direct through the

lens light, but requires moving the light slightly off axis so that it reflects off any

milky haze surface on the elements.

 

 

I just purchased an older Componon enlarging lens on the same auction site and

which was described as being clear and withouit marks. It does have some haze. I

should have questioned the owner more carefully. On the other hand, I paid only $40

and therefore cannot really complain.

 

 

It is the obligation of the seller to describe well his product and reply to the questions

of the buyer. Did he ask specific questions about the presence of haze? As a buyer,

he should ask them, particularly with an older piece of equipment. Maybe you can

arrange to take back the lens only? Or give a small credit as a function of the

problem? I think it depends in part upon how your product was described.

[SCL]

David - as a seller or numerous older Leica pieces about 2 years ago, I rigorously described not only the cosmetic condition, but also the mechanical and optical condition of each component...and paid particular attention to any "flaws" or things which could be perceived as flaws...especially in lenses. The flashlight inspection, IMHO, is critical, as is the ease with which a lens focuses, the diaphragm opens (and whether or not the blades are bright or have oil on them). I also strongly invite potential buyers to send me their questions well in advance of the close of the auction, so that I can respond with satisfactory answers...or, in some cases, with additional pictures. As a result, I've never had a complaint related to quality or condition. On high end pieces which I deem to be in VG or better condition, I always offer a return policy...others are sold "as is" and clearly stated. Also, I offer copies of any repair (CLA) bills related to the items.

[anthony_brookes5]

"Fogged" is avery strong term to apply to a lens. It suggests that light has difficulty passing through. Looking at the picture I would say that is wrong. All 'old' lenses of the age of this IIIf look less clear than modern coated lenses. Are you sure he is not just trying to find an excuse to back the camera ?

[alex_lofquist]

That IIIf looks beautiful. (I still have one that does not look that good.) It is not uncommon for some foreign buyers to hit on the seller for a little kick-back. They think that you will do it to preserve your reputation, and it costs them nothing to ask.

[kparratt]

I just have to say that from current business eBay dealings with David, I was really alarmed to find such a negative feedback as the buyer left for his purchase of this stunning IIIf.

 

It was just last night, that I actually followed the link to see what the buyer's gripe was. Now really, for the price he paid, he should have considered the lens as a bonus. I've seen several IIIf examples go for higher prices, without a lens, and in somewhat poorer condition than this one. ( which I would have bought if I had found the auction in time - and will if he wants to return it. )

 

Even taking into consideration the helpful advice that Stephen Lewis and others offer here, the complaint from the buyer was totally out of order.

 

Every single item that David has been offering on behalf of his meticulous collector friend, has been kept in pristine condition.

 

Cheers, Kevin.

[dave_s]

This is interesting, if unfortunate, and your buyer could expect a little fog/haze in a lens of this age. My camera tech is reluctant to clean the inside surfaces of my hazy old lenses, for fear of damaging the coatings.

 

I wonder if Charles Stobbs might have a point. Could an unpressurized luggage hold lead to traces of oil on the blades or in the lens become volatilized?

[jdleffler]

I am singularly impressed with the consideration and sensitivity all of you have shown in answering my question. As usual I have gleaned a great deal of invaluable information. Certainly, from now on, I will thoroughly examine all of David's optics by moving the beam of a small but powerful penlight up, around and through the lens.

 

Interestingly, I reexamined an old optic I had previously (and I had thought carefully) examined with a gooseneck lamp and good magnifier. I am delighted to note the penlight technique is a far superior diagnostic tool. I was able to note imperfections in the older lenses I had not been able to see before and will now be able to document and disclose for buyers to consider.

 

Further, I take to heart the advice offered with regard to rigorously performing a thorough and exhaustive evaluation of cosmetic, mechanical and optical condition of each component ensuring that clients are well pleased when receiving items that meet and may often exceed their expectations.

 

Everytime I come here I am left with a feeling of wonder and awe in the power of a knowledgeable and caring community.

 

I'll be back with more questions. I may be ignorant but I'm not stupid.

[christopher_a._junker1]

Mohir's practice of unconditional refunds minus shipping is fair. Appearance and functioning standards are subjective and unless the item is being sold "as is" you really can't be satisfied until you have the item in your hands. Having said that, I compared yuor IIIf pictures with my immaculate IIIf and find yours at least equal if not slightly better in appearance. I'd offer a full refund against a return of all the items. The $600 price he paid is at least fair and depending what else went with the IIIf and lens, may be very generous. Your selling ethics are equal to the standard when we were allowed to buy and sell on this forum.

[astral]

"Could an unpressurized luggage hold lead to ..." [Dave Sims]

 

I took lots of gear to the SW USA in 2005 - all in hand/carry-on baggage. All was perfectly fine during the 6 week trip. On returning to the UK one (superwide Mamiya) lens was found to have condensation marks seen as a faint hazy spot 2/3rd of the front element diameter. This persisted for a several weeks until cleaned by an authorised service centre. They said it was not unknown for some lenses that had travelled long distances to show condensation marks, but it varied from model to model, time to time, place to place.

 

My only explanation is that a fairly rapid change from a blistering 100+degrees in Phoenix AZ on a Sunday to a cool 64degrees in the UK a day later was the critical issue: also, while Phoenix in early June isn't especially humid, London is. The aircraft cabin temperature during the flight was quite high too. The outward journey, with temperatures reversed, didn't cause the problem.

 

Or it could have just been a co-incidence. AC

[jdleffler]

Thank you Christopher. I agree that Mohir's practice of unconditional refund minus shipping is completely fair and I intend to embrace it in all transactions not specifically designated as "as-is". My integrity need stand up to the scrutiny of a global audience and I would be foolish indeed to not heed sage wisdom born of years of experience.

 

Additionally, I fully intend to use a more rigorous methodology to determine how I frame my description of an item so that even an "as-is" listing is just as clearly delineated as a high-grade item. People have a right to know what they are spending their money on.

 

Further, I am now using the penlight method suggested by Arthur and Adrian, among others. I wish I had known about this technique long ago. It's amazing what can be seen lurking in the shadows of an older lens. Had I known about this technique my critiques might have been much more "objective".

 

The more time I spend canvasing forums like this, and educating myself on the instruments I sell, the more I can imbue confidence in those who would want what I offer. A worthy pursuit.

 

 

P.S. Why is it that we are no longer allowed to sell on this forum? It would seem as if a healthy and honest discussion of what was transacted (pros and cons) using a policy akin to Mohir's simple no-risk criteria could only lead to better overall acquisitions and happier members. After all, all upsets are caused by a lack of communication. There is certainly no dearth of communications here.

[jdleffler]

Just for fun another look (or two) at at the oft mentioned Leica IIIf.<div></div>

[jdleffler]

As well as...<div></div>

[gerry_hopkins1]

The camera body looks in great condition! and even if the lens did need repair the body and bits you sold with it are worth what he paid you= I have seen that summitar lens hood go for 40 + pounds on ebay - he is a winger treat him as such