My first Leica M. Please help me decide?

[parasko_p]

Hi all,

 

I owned an Xpan briefly about a year ago and loved the RF way of viewing though

not the pano format. I knew then that the next step in the RF direction would

be to buy a Leica M..so here I am, currently w/out a camera and about to take

the plunge.

 

To help with my decision, my considerations are as follows:

 

1. I wear glasses.

2. I am eventually considering a two lens, two body kit.

3. My lens preferences are the latest Summicrons, 28mm, 35mm or 50mm. I do not

like external viewfinders and scarcely shoot longer than 50mm.

 

So my options based on my budget and my questions are:

 

1. A new M7+50mm kit and then a Bessa R4 with a 28mm lens.

If I take this road, should I be instead looking at a used M7 with .85

viewfinder for the 50mm? Does the 28mm Summicron block the framelines of the

Bessa? The lens blocking the viewfinder really annoyed me on the Xpan.

 

2. 2 x M6. One .85 with the 50mm and then either a .72 or .58 for the 35mm or

28mm. How much does the lack of AE slow down the process for street shooting?

Is the 35mm too close to the 50mm when using a RF for this type of photography?

Does anyone recommend upgrading M6 viewfinders to the MP version? Cost?

 

3. Just stick with one body+lens: buy the M7 kit and a 35mm and sell the least

preferred lens.

 

Apologies for the essay and many questions but I don't have a chance to try

before I buy. I was considering the M8 but by the time I am comfortable with RF

shooting, I'm sure an M9 will have appeared.

 

Cheers,

 

Parasko.

[brucecahn]

M6. The lack of auto exposure does slow it down a bit , but exposures are better. If someone gave me an M7 I would use it. Make no mistake about that.

[ewanc]

Five months ago I decided to get my first M and you can read why I decided to get an M6 and 35mm'Lux <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00MTsT">here</a>.

<br>

If you are interested in the 35mm'Lux you can also read about the followup adventure <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00MXSS">here.</a>

<br>

Good luck!

[emraphoto]

well as far as ae slowing down shooting on the street... i think manual metering really is

the way to go. i meter my hand before i go shooting. set the exposure, set your focal

distance and start shooting. open up a stop or two in the shadows and just go back and

forth between those two settings.

i have used that method on an m6, m6ttl, epson r-d1s and the m8. works like a charm

and with a wide lens with lots of depth of field... shazam! it's like apoint and shoot.

i suppose what i'm saying is a pair of m6's over a new m7 is the way i'd go. i never

upgraded the viewfinders on either m6 and it was never an issue for me. i don't wish to

nullify the finder glare issue however i never ran into any problems with it.

don't count out the m8 due to an m9 "appearing soon". i may eat my hat on this one but

taking into account the timeframes historically between m models, the immense work that

went into the m8 and leica's current dependence on a capable dslr line... well i reckon it's

a ways away.

m6 .72, m6 .85 and a 35/50 cron combo and you my friend will be happy as a pig in...

well you know.

[marek_fogiel]

Parasko,

If you wear glasses, like me, and want a RF with AE mode - like me (my street shots are

not there to wait for me to meter manually, and if I have the time to meter manually, then I

take out a tripod and my Hasselblad), then the decision is a no brainer:

 

- for the 28mm the best set up is the Bessa R4A with a compact 28mm- I use the Elmarit

28/2.8 ASPH for its sharpness and compactness. This way you get a very good vision of

the 28mm frame (you see a single frame in the VF with some outside relief) and you get

next to no vignetting from the lens. If you want to spend less and don't mind the speed,

the CV 28/3.5 is a terrific lens you can use with an adapter, all for very little money.

 

- for the 35 and 50 mm the best set up is the Zeiss Ikon with the lenses of your choice. I

invite you to take a look at the Zeiss ZM lenses - in my opinion they are giving as sharp

photos as Summicrons, with less flare, better bokeh and more 3D looking images, and at

less than half the price - in other words they outclass Leica glass. The ZI itself has a VF

which ridicules the Leicas altogether, is easier to load and is made well enough to give you

a lot of pleasure from use.

I d o use the M7 as well (0.85x), only with the 50mm lenses, as you can't see the 35mm

frames if you wear glasses, and the reason is it gives me a slightly tighter frame for the

50mm (but messed up with the 75 additional frame as well), and above all, because it has

a slightly more silent shutter than the ZI, and I use this camera mainly for stealth shooting

in interiors, like bars, etc...It is a nice camera, but inferior to the ZI in most aspects which

matter photographically.

Take a look at my flickr pages, where you will find relevant technical camera and lens info

next to all the shots:

Also, take a look at this group, where you can see pool shots from various lenses by

selecting a particular lens tag:

 

My advice for an ideal combo, would be:

2 camera kit:

R4A+Elmarit 28/2.8 ASPH

ZI+Planar 50/2, or C Sonnar 50/1.5(the second one has focus shift problems, and is in my

opinion prevalently an incredible portrait lens)

1 camera kit:

Zeiss Ikon+Zeiss Biogon 35/2 - this is a dream combination for general shooting, if you

are more of a low light guy. an alternative to the Biogon is the CV Nokton 35/1.2, the best

low light lens ever made.

If you should inherit some money and want a 3 camera kit, then:

R4A+Elmarit 28/2.8 ASPH, or Summicron 28/2

Zeiss Ikon+35/2 Biogon

M7(0.85)+Summilux 50/1.4 ASPH

 

BTW, for getting the CV and ZI equipment on the cheap, check out rangefinderforum.com

if in the USA and Matsuiastore on the bay if not.

[frederick_muller]

Try out a .72 finder M6 and see if you are comfortable with the 28mm frame. If you are, the .72 will be a perfect all-around machine for you as it will deal comfortably with 28mm to 50mm. If you can't comfortably see the 28mm frame, then go to a .58 finder on an M6TTL. That will handle the 28 comfortably, and go all the way up to 50mm. Work with the one machine for a while before buying number two.

 

I find the Bessa R4 was really made for the ultrawide set. Its utility is going to be mostly in the 21mm to 35mm zone. You can use the 50mm frame on the R4 okay, and its EBL is enough to accurately focus a 50mm f1.4, but the 50mm really does look like a short tele on the R4. If you are not going down to 21mm, you might not need the R4.

 

I use multiple bodies, especially when I go on longer trips and shoots. However, quite often, it feels liberating to carry just one body and two or three lenses. Then it's useful for that body to be as general purpose as possible. For that reason, I'd steer clear of the .85 unless you are a real 50mm fan.

[ronald_moravec1]

With glasses you will have trouble seeing the edges of .85 VF with 50mm lens.

 

28 frame lines are not really good unless you get a .58 finder.

 

If the camera goes in for service, have the vf upgraded. I have two M6`s from 1986 and

did not know there was a problem until a year or two back. It just depends on how and

where you use the camera. Bright lights to the top corners outside the field of view seem

to cause the problem. Just rotate the camera a little to focus if there is a problem.

 

Street shooting is done by focusing with the lens and knowing how far to turn it for

various distances. You do not look at the camera. Count click stops for exposure. One

place for sun, open 3 for shade.

[didier]

I would first buy 1 body, and buy the second one later, if necessary.

So you can see what you value most on your first M (meter, viewfinder mag, ...), and choose maybe a different second body to make your kit more versatile. If you don't shoot slides, for a second body, a meterless body (M4 ?) is great.

 

 

cheers

 

Didier

[john_gleason1]

<i>With glasses you will have trouble seeing the edges of .85 VF with 50mm lens.</i>

 

<p>

If that is supposed to mean that a person wearing glasses will have trouble seeing the 50mm framelines of a 0.85x viewfinder, I'll have to object. I've got a 0.85x MP and I can see the 35mm framelines with only a bit of effort; with no effort, what I see comes pretty close to (imaginary) 40mm framelines. The 50mm framelines are parked out in the middle of the viewfinder. (Yes, I wear glasses, all the time.)

 

<p>

I'd say that this is a matter highly dependent on the photographer's glasses, visual system, and ability to pay attention to the periphery of his/her visual field. In short: best to try a finder/frameline combination with your own glasses and eyeballs.

[parasko_p]

Great advice you guys! I really appreciate it.

 

I have decided to buy just one body and one lens to start with (very sensible, thanks!) I realise that I do also want AE so I am thinking of the M7 (.72) as the most versatile option. But what about the M8?

 

Which would be the better option:

1. New M7 kit (with 50mm Summicron).

2. Used M7 +35mm Summicron.

3. Used M8 with either the 35 or 50 Summicron.

 

Any further advice appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

Parasko.

[Troll]

Leicas are not for people who wear glasses.

[orvillerobertson]

based on your parameters I would say your best choice would be the Zeiss Ikon. It will match

well with all of your M lenses from 28 to 50 and has a huge viewfinder that will allow you to

shoot easily with glasses and see the full framelines. It's got auto-exposure, and is solid and

quiet enough. Great for street shooting.

[marek_fogiel]

Parasko. you seem to have the Leica bug... so you will probably end up buying inferior and

overpriced Leica gear - nothing wrong with that, as long as you will enjoy it and use it

well, haha... A better option would be to get the Zeiss Ikon with the 50 Planar, and spend

the money saved on other lenses and a good scanner... here are a few ZI+Planar shots:

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1777480380&size=l

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1505464114&size=l

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1096255141&size=l

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=989193055&size=l

[parasko_p]

<<you seem to have the Leica bug>>

 

I think you are right Marek...now if only I can decide between the M7 and M8.

 

Thanks for all your comments. If anybody else wishes to add anything else, please do so.

 

Cheers.

[graham_line]

"Leicas are not for people who wear glasses."

 

Where has all that income been coming from for 30 years? First an M2, now an M4-P. The .72 finder is fine for the 50, OK for some users with a 35, and a .58 works well with a 28.

 

I've been wearing glasses with heavy correction since I was 8, using various rangefinders since I was 14 and Leicas since my mid-20s. Don Goldberg sells plastic eyepiece covers to eliminate scratching by the older eyepieces.

 

My personal preference is for an unmetered body because things around the edges, like meter lights, are hard to see. But framing is no problem.

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1085

[gaijin]

>>Parasko. you seem to have the Leica bug... so you will probably end up buying inferior and overpriced Leica gear - nothing wrong with that, as long as you will enjoy it and use it well, haha... A better option would be to get the Zeiss Ikon with the 50 Planar, and spend the money saved on other lenses and a good scanner... here are a few ZI+Planar shots: http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1777480380&size=l http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1505464114&size=l http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1096255141&size=l http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=989193055&size=l<<

 

You consider the Zeiss as superior to Leica and offer up your far too contrasty, blown highlights, black shadows shots as proof?

 

I was considering adding a Zeiss WA M lens to my Leica M group but your shots convinced me otherwise. Good job, and thank you.

[horea_feier]

D30 Gajin,

 

This is a feature of modern lenses (too much contrast)- Have you shot a 35 Summicron

ASPH? I had one for 1 year and it was way too contrasty, even for color.

 

This is just my humble opinion, of course

[keirst]

Just because the M7 has auto exposure does not mean its owners don't use manual

metering. I take over 95% of my shots with my M7s without auto. Auto is there for when

light is changing too fast to keep track of manually. The M7's electronically controlled

shutter is also quieter than M6, and more accurate especially at 1/1000s, which can be iffy

on older mechanical shuttered Leicas resulting in uneven exposure. I've had problems with

an old M6 and M4-P giving dark underexposed vertical streaks/patches at 1/1000s,

necessitating overhauls. Flash support is better with the M7 than with the M6-TTL, if you

sometimes use flash.

 

As for the VF magnification, I much prefer my 0.58x over my 0.72x. 28mm is my

preferred focal length, and it's nice to have space around those framelines for anticipating

moving subjects about to come into the frame. I wear glasses or sunglasses with a light

prescription, but take them off for shooting. I have -1.00 correction lens on all my

cameras (rangefinder or SLR) which gives optimum viewing, though people with heavy

prescriptions may not find this convenient.

 

I love the 35mm/1.4 ASPH, but my favorite Leica lenses are the 28mm/2.8 ASPH and

75mm/2 Apo-ASPH. The Zeiss 21mm/2.8 and 25mm/2.8 are stunningly good for extra

wideangle use. I have come to love Fuji Pro400H as my standard film for its low contrast,

accurate color and broad exposure lattitude.

[gaijin]

Hello Horea,

 

No I have not shot a Summicron 35 ASPH and have no desire to do so based on results I have seen (same with the new Zeiss line). Too contrasty for me. I'll stick with my 35 Summicron M 3rd gen.

 

Since you said you had one for a year did you decide to go with something less contrasty than the 35 ASPH? If so, what was your choice after the 35 ASPH... just curious?

 

Don