When Things Go Wrong. What Would You do?

[art_tatum]

I have a situation and I would love some advice. The scenario has many layers but the essence is as

follows...

 

My normal practice is to shoot a wedding and edit the photos. I edit to improve the photos if they need it

and I also delete ones I feel are not up to standard for whatever reason. The client in the end gets the best

of the best. I shoot rather generously and I average (after editing) 100 per hour.

 

I have a couple that are wondering where 'the other photos are'. They insist they remember me taking

photos and those photos are not on the disk. They say they have photos from guests cameras of me taking

pictures that they don't have. This is probably true and it is also true that those photos didn't work out for

whatever reason and were likely deleted during editing.

 

I explain many things at my pre-meet with couples and one thing I explain is that I have 'final cut'. I

explain that I shoot generously and that not all photos work out but they will get the best ones. I can only

assume that this couple doesn't remember this part of the pre-meet. No I do not have this signed off on

but will going forward.

 

The couple love the photographs (I have this in writing) from the wedding but they are getting very

unreasonable, filing complaints with a professional association I am a member of and threatening

litigation if they don't get the 'other photos' which don't exist. I am not at all concerned about litigation.

The husband is now asking for a refund because he believes I 'missed' 6 photos. Out of 415 final edit

photos he thinks he is missing 6.

 

This has all come out of the blue as I usually get raves in my follow ups with couples after a wedding. I

am the first person to admit when I am wrong and 'do the right thing' but in this instance I don't believe I

am culpable.

 

Any and all opinions/solutions are appreciated.

[rffffffff]

wow... most people arent that unreasonable, but we never delete photographs ever. The first thing we do is burn the raw files to DVD and then go from there so we have everything just in case.

 

In this case, though, I would politely invite them to take a flying leap, or perhaps issue them a $50 refund if it helps them shut up. I personally wouldnt worry about litigation either, but bad news travels quickly and perhaps a small refund would be worth more to shut up the bad news even though they are clearly, in my mind, completely nuts.

 

Good luck!

[daverhaas]

Art -

 

If you haven't shot anything over the top of the cards, there's a chance that you could recover the images that the client thinks are "lost". There's a number of recovery programs that can read cards that have been erased.

 

Another option might be to take a photo from another shoot that is not good and show that to the client, stating that "This is what the ones I deleted / didn't show you look like... Did you really want them?"

Chances are they'll be reasonable at that point.

 

Try explaining again, that even though you are a professional, there are times that things don't work out ...i.e. someone is making a face, lighting is not right, image is blurry, etc... and that you as the photographer don't want unflattering images attached to your name. Believe me, those unflattering images will come back to haunt you.

 

If they still aren't happy, then offer them a partial refund for the 6 shots that you missed (or that they feel you missed).

 

A couple of side notes: My advisers tell me I'm nuts for showing the client all of the photos that I shoot. (The wedding I did 2 weekends ago is the first one that I'm not doing that for) Guess this goes to show why I might re-consider that. Also, it is interesting to me that there's another thread in the business section of this forum regarding how many images are "typical" for a wedding photographer to shoot.

 

If all else fails - get a good attorney!

 

Good Luck -

 

Dave

[jim olson]

I wouldn't issue any refund as I dont think any reasonable amount would

satisfy them. As long as the shots they are requesting were not specifically mentioned in the contract or in a list you both agreed on , they dont have a leg to stand on. I would also assume that most people that know them would know what is reasonable to expect and would also know that these are difficult people to deal with.

Jim

[douglas lee]

Do you have a contract and if so, what does the contract state regarding this issue?

Regardless, I agree the couple is over the top.

 

Good luck.

[benk]

Art, I think that you need to explain in the nicest possible way that they are being

ridiculous..... exposures can be out for a shot or two until you fine tune them, subjects

move at the wrong time, blink or sneeze, any number of reasons can mean a percentage of

bad shots that should rightfully be deleted. If you hand over everything including the

rubbish, it will go on to be seen by others as work with your name on it.

If you were a contracted chef for a wedding function, would you be obliged to put on the

table 6 burnt dishes alongside 415 well cooked ones?

[art_tatum]

There is no contract with this couple or any couple. I do not do contracts and I like it that

way. My bother is the Lawyer and that is his world. I am the Photographer.

[jonj]

Show them this posting and tell them they are being pushy and that there is very few photographers that turn over every shot taken. Tell them as a photographer if an image is sub par and you release it into the public it could damge your potential to sign other couples.

 

In my contract I state that the photographer may shoot 300-400 images but the bride and groom should expect to get close to 75-150 depending on the size and length of the event.

 

Every time I get asked "why don't we get the other photos"? I explain I may take 20 of the cake cutting but weed out 17 because they all look the same no reason to give you 20 of the same shot. They get it then.

[stephen dohring]

Similar to what to others said, explain you do a rough edit and delete eye blinks, mistakes like camera shake or the flash did not recycle or funny faces where the B&G did not look their best. Explain you do not give those shots out as they reflect on the quality of your work and every photographer does this as not every shot is perfect. The 6 shots that are missing are not shots you want to have.

[kiro]

this is a common misconception to some, especially those not used to working with photographers - they think that what makes you a pro is that every single shot comes out perfect. I don't shoot weddings, just portraiture, but I had a client recently who had a similar complaint. They didn't threaten legal action or anywhere near that level of action, but expressed clear disapointment of the photos that weren't included in the proof set (my shooting style involves shooting several hundred photos for a session, because I'm going for a certain expression usually). I wanted to avoid having an unsatisfied client, and also avoid dealing with their demands any further (after several attempts to explain the situation), so what I did was agree to send them a disc with all the photos on it, but didn't touch up any extras. I "accidentally" burned full rez photos. My intent was basically that they'd receive the discs and think "holy crap, this guy gave us all the full size photos" and go away. It worked - I probably lost a couple hundred dollars in print orders, but I can make that up using that time to generate other business.

 

of course, i NEVER delete a photo - DVD's are cheap, so I'd recommend changing that strategy.

[djphoto]

Here's the relevant clause from my contract.

 

"ARTISTIC LICENSE: Client agrees that Dave Jenkins Photography shall be granted artistic license in photographing and editing your wedding. All decisions are made in the best interest of the client, who will be given the highest quality selection from the images taken. Our decisions regarding locations, poses, and number of photographs created and presented shall be deemed to be correct and the image collection complete. We will make a good-faith effort to create any requested photographs, but because of the rapid pace and unpredictable nature of wedding photography, it is impossible to guarantee that specific requested photographs will be made. Dave Jenkins Photography is not responsible for missed photographs due to the actions of videographers, other photographers, or intoxicated individuals."

 

Maybe it's time you got your brother to write a contract for you Art. Otherwise, just put a sign on your back -- "Please Screw Me. I Like It."

[jc5066]

First things first, get a lawyer. Secondly, watch what you say. Thirdly, keep track of EVERYTHING they say.

 

They are getting close to slander and defamation of character.

 

Are any of the "missing shots" anything that is typically considered as must have shots? Maybe it be worth while to show them the deleted photo's so they understand why they were not included.

 

Going forward, add some verbiage in your contract stating you have the final say to what makes it into the keeper pile.

 

Keep your cool, and good luck.

[buffdr_raz1]

For this reason alone I re-number all of my images BEFORE I had over the DVD or prints. Also I have never had anyone look at me for the entire wedding to see what and how many shots I take. Since they are being extremely pushy, I would take 6 of the current photo and blur them beyond recognition and let them have it. Unless you can produce ALL the images, I don't think you will get a referral from this family anyway. Good luck and next time, simply burn ALL the pictures to a another hard drive and make a folder of all the ones you want to keep. Once done, burn all the original AND the keep folder to a DVD and store it. Oh and mark the DVD "Grumpy wedding" for future reference :). J/K. V/R Buffdr

[art_tatum]

I may not have made it clear...there are no 'missing' photos. The couple received 415 edited

wedding photographs (digital). I edit in the best interest of the client.

 

They love what they received (I have this in writing from the bride) but are malcontent

because they think I missed 6 shots that were taken by a wedding guest and it shows me

taking a picture. Again, they don't all turn out now do they.

 

I really appreciate the immediate feedback and the sidebar stories.

[russ_konrad]

<b>"There is no contract with this couple or any couple. I do not do contracts and I like it that way..."</b>

<p>

Then you will keep having these type of problems!

<P>

A contract protects you from unreasonable customers like this situation and others which can be far worse.

[marlena_thomas]

How does the client know you weren't taking test shots (for lighting/exposure)? I would just tell them that all viable shots were handed over. A guest's snapshot of you point a camera at something is hardly a case against you. <P>

What 6 shots were missed? Are they candid, reception shots? Or formals? I would imagine that formals and family shots are more likely to be pin-pointed as missing after the fact. <P>

Considering that the couple loved the photos but is now seeking legal consult makes me question what other motives they might have... Perhaps all the debt incurred by the wedding is taking its toll? Just a thought. <P>

In any event, I think you should stand your ground and I wouldn't offer them anything for free to "shut them up". I personally can't stand when unreasonable people are rewarded for bad behavior.

[sam_ellis]

They're being unreasonable, but you should have a contract. I assume you're in the USA where anyone can be sued even without warrant. Is it worth not having a contract if you have to spend a day in court arguing a pointless case?

What's the percentage of 6 shots out of 415? 1%? Offer them a refund of 1%. My contract states that in the event of a loss of images, I am only responsible for the percentage of the fee that is relative to the amount of images lost...or some language like that. When I shot film, if one out of ten rolls of film was lost, I was responsible for no more than 10% of a refund.

I've had a couple people ask for "missing" photos. In once case, she said she heard my shutter click three times on the video during a particular part of the ceremony. I simply explained that in that quick second, I had been focused on something else, saw the action taking place, recomposed and fired, but the shots were blurry. That satisfied them. In another case, the bride absolutely wanted every single photo that was taken. Just to prove my case, I put a "DELETE" watermark over all the ones I had culled and sent them to her on a disc. She was from another state, so I wasn't concerned about others seeing my bad work. You know what though, it made her happy and she's hiring me for a family portrait this summer.

 

My workflow is to use Lightroom to categorize all my keepers, export them to a new folder, and upload them to Smugmug. All files get backed up as well just in case. I never delete anything.

 

Good luck with this. Let us know how it turned out.

[picturesque]

Without a contract, all you can do is use your brother, the lawyer, as a shield. It is your word against theirs, they can claim anything they want--including that you never told them about your editing procedure. Or use your association's legal help, if they have one. However, even if all of your legal help allows you to "win" this one, they can still file complaints with the Better Business Bureau and/or other associations and spread negative buzz about you.

 

If it were me, I would schedule a face to face meeting with them and ask them if they remember discussing your editing proceudre. If they claim they don't, explain it again, including the fact that the 6 "missing" images don't exist anymore.

 

I would also find out exactly what they are claiming is missing and look at the shots of you taken by the guest. If you agreed to a shot list or if these photos are part of the basic and usual kinds of images taken at weddings, they may have grounds for being malcontent.

 

If you still have the "missing" shots, I would consider just giving them to the couple. And have your brother work out a contract for you. This kind of complaint is more and more common these days.

[tim_schultz1]

Contract, contract, contract. I have used contracts with my close friends. They understand this is a BUSINESS. I have a clause in my contract that states the photographer will attempt to record all events but there is no guarantee. While you can't change this wedding, I highly suggest using a contract.

 

I agree with the others here and stand your ground.

[art_tatum]

Thanks everyone. I have now put this to bed.

[Jerry_]

It is impossible to please every person 100 percent of the time: you have met two in one wedding.

 

 

 

As noted above, you may have to find a good lawyer if the wedding couple are determined that six images of 400+ are the cause of their "heart-burn."

 

 

 

 

Good luck!

[itchy]

yeah thats rubbish, they cant be serious if they want every single photo.

 

i work taking photos in nightclubs and always get people with there eyes closed, looking hepas drunk, or what not. and we cant post those photos on our site as:

1. it dose not promote the club very well. and

2. at the end of the day, its my name thats attached to the photos for everyone to see.

 

Your not going to hand over rubbish photos and expect them to be happy with what they payed for.

Also, they should understand that photography is more then pointing a camera and shooting the perfect shot, it could take you 2 or 3 shots at the one subject before you get it right.

[steve_c.5]

I'd like to echo the issue of the flash not recycling. This is often a problem if you don't use an external "booster" battery pack to recycle the flash faster. They may have seen you holding the camera and even the flash firing, but the flash fires at partial power, and that's a dark shot that's not worth saving. You're making every professional effort to capture the event, within the abilities of your equipment.

 

Also, there are just some people who are straining for money, especially after a big expensive wedding. If they think they can wrangle a refund out of you for missing 6 silly shots, they will. They have nothing to lose. But I assure you, they won't go to the expense of hiring a lawyer, they're just trying to put pressure on you. A few hours of a good lawyer's time will eat up whatever they might gain in a judgement. And, if they could prove damages of 6 "lost" photos out of 415 good ones, and you divide your fee by 421, you'll quickly see that they are wasting everyone's time here.

 

Do put a clause in your contract that you have final cut. And remember, this is probably the only client you'll ever have who's this pigheaded.

 

There's a possibility that those images are in some fragmented data on your hard drive, assuming it doesn't get overwritten. If you want to go to the trouble, you could attempt a data rescue with software, just to show them how lousy those pics were. Assuming Photoshop could parse the file and open them.

 

Many of us in this biz work very hard at these events to do the best job we can. Most clients and guests see this, but some are simply too self-involved to notice. Good luck.

[Leonard-just-Leonard]

"Art Tatum, Dec 10, 2007; 10:18 p.m.

Thanks everyone. I have now put this to bed."

 

So, what did you finally do? Did you give them a refund or what?

 

Personally I would have told them to go to (censored), which is why I don't do that type of photography...

[justin_hall]

I assume this is all in the USA, you guys sue everyone and everything at the drop of a hat. madness.