Biting off more than you can chew... I need some big guns to help me out with this...

[justin_hall]

Picture the scene (closing your eyes helps but then you can't read...)

 

It's the night before Christmas, and everyone is gathered in a cute little 16th

Century Church in the English countryside, on the beautiful Norfolk/Suffolk border.

 

It's 4pm, pitch black outside and the guests arrive at the church, snow on the

ground and the path lit by a trail of candles.

 

Inside the church the pews are adorned with more candles, burning incense is

filling the air mixed with the smell of pine leaves from the Christmas trees

lining the church. Choir boys holding candles gently sing about the baby Jesus

and light pours in from the centuries old stained glass window courtesy of a

strategically placed floodlight outside.

 

After the service the guests retire to the barn on the country estate where they

live (roughly worth 15 million pounds) - again lit with candles and christmas trees.

 

Now picture Justin the Photographer wondering what on earth he has agreed to and

wonders what type of crazy lighting he can use to pull this stunt off. The B&G

are not wealthy (they are farm hands for the estate) and I've charged virtually

nothing. They really want to use me because of the other "test" weddings I've

done this year. Which were all in the summer. With natural light. Gulp.

 

So - suggestions, help, advice - anything please... help me Obe Wan Kenobi -

you're my only hope....

 

j

 

p.s. I can already feel you all sighing and rolling your eyes... tut tut

[ellis_vener_photography]

rent some fast prime lenses (f/2 and f/1.4) and a D3 or 1D mark 3 body

[justin_hall]

Hmm - good advice Ellis, thanks.

 

I have a 17-55mm f2.8 IS and a 70-200 f2.8 IS and a crappy little 50mm f1.8. And soon to be two 580EX's to go with my two 400D's.

 

You think a 1D MkIII will make a big difference to 400D for this? (duh - silly question...) I mean a BIG difference?

[joshroot]

It would help to know what equipment you have access to.

<p>

Fast prime lenses, 3200 iso, and prayers are the how I have dealt with candle lit wedding situations. The ceremony below was lit by candles and battery powered holiday lights in a snow covered cabin at night.

<p>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/6154159"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/6154159-lg.jpg" height="20%" width="20%"></a>

[justin_hall]

I guess the 1D would let me get some decent 3200 ISO shots. I really don't want to have hot lights and flash units firing off everywhere.

 

Josh - which God to you pray to? - it obviously worked... nice shot.

 

So this could be the excuse I need to buy a 1D.

 

"Honestly honey - all the guys 'n' gals on Photonet said I HAD to buy a 1D"

[memecafe]

don't go to 3200. With any camera. Get a mono pod and slow the shuterspeed a little so you can lower the ISO. Some may disagree, but I think 3200 ISO looks like crap. Is it really going to be pitch balck at 4pm? I think you will be ok till about 6. With the flood light thru the stained glass I think you will be able to pull this off. Plus, it is x-mas eve, you have plenty of time to go there and test it out! I try to go before an event like this if I am worried or unsure. Even for a low paying gig. When I first moved here 6 months ago I had never been in a huge old cathedral and how no idea how to shoot in one, so I went and practiced. I would do the same here.

[memecafe]

by the way, I don't mean to insult anyone who has 3200 shots posted. Josh's photo looks nice, but how does it look enlarged? I guess sometimes you are forced to do it but I would really try to avoid it.

[joshroot]

I personally like iso 3200 shots. The monopod idea could work for altar shots. But it's not going to help you if anything is moving faster than a slow crawl. Plus, I find monopods to be a PITA. Without a head of some sort, they limit your rotation of the camera. And with a head they are awkward to use. But that's just me, others use them all the time.

 

One thing you could do, if the ceremony site is nearby, is go there a week or so before hand and try to figure out the amount of ambient light that you will have to work with at the time of the ceremony. 4pm at the end of december in the UK sounds like a recipe for darkness in my opinion. And that's if the ceremony even gets started on time, which they never do.

[justin_hall]

i keep hearing how impressive the 1D/D3 is at 3200... i'll definately be using a monopod or my tripod stacey.

 

i think it will be pitch black, it's close to the longest night of the year you see.

 

i've done some test shots inside the church (see them on my site, www.justinhall.co.uk, click Your Photos, then Lindsay/Ian), but this was about 2pm in November - so still light outside.

 

it's such a tiny rural church that they only have two weddings a year on average - and is also 3 hours away. i don't think i will be able to get a realistic test-run before the day - which really adds to my worries. I need to go armed with a plan A, B through to about X...

 

luckily the Vicar is very relaxed and "anything goes" but I don't want to dominate proceedings with gear/rigs/lighting...

[joshroot]

<i>"Josh's photo looks nice, but how does it look enlarged?"</i>

<p>

The clients loved it, so that's all that really matters to me.

<p>

One thing that is important to do in a situation like this is to educate the bride and groom on what their images will look like given the lighting situation. Whenever I have a ceremony that I know will be poorly lit, I spend time talking to the b/g and showing them other images that I have taken in similar situations. This way they are not expecting one thing and getting another.

[marc_morris]

Hi

 

I have a 1D Mark IIn and I would not go up to 1600 or 3200 ISO.

I would go wide with your shots and use second sync on your flash.

Manuel 30th of a second at F8 or even lower 10th 15th . Try out many different speeds until it works . Also If you are not to sure about the Camera blurr at these speeds use a tripod or monopod to help. I would love to help you it's sound fantastic for great images .

[ben_rubinstein___mancheste1664880652]

With my 5D iso 1600 looks incredible, I use it a lot. 3200 is nowhere near as good as iso 1600 pushed a stop in RAW, IMO emergency only so that is the route I would go.

 

Iso 1600 (to capture the lights in the background) with flash (for foreground) should do the trick, off camera flash if you can wing it. Figure on f2.8 being your best compromise between DOF and letting light in for regular shots where an f1.2 just won't cut it for DOF.

[picturesque]

I recommend several things. First determine how high an ISO you can go while maintaining your quality standard. This is either with your current body/sensor with or without noise software to help.

 

Second, based on the above, you can purchase some fast primes and/or work on tripod/monopod techniques on top of "waiting for the pauses" technique for the ceremony. The latter can be used with slower ISOs too, and if you go this route, you need not purchase anything else.

 

Third, you can supplement what you actually get during the ceremony with re-creations of highlights after the ceremony. This does not require extra purchases either.

 

Or, you can set up a couple of off camera flashes if you get permission to do so. You can gel these to match candlelight somewhat.

 

Or any combination of the above.

[ronald_moravec1]

Use a flash with slow a very low shutter speed, perhaps 1/15 at 5.6 for iso 100.

 

Maybe go to 400 and use 1/60 at 5.6. Adjust the flash to auto so the aperture is 5.6.

 

The slow speed will expose the warm candles in the background and the subject normally

lit.

 

I would not attempt more than a few pic by ambient light and these would be on a tripod.

 

The big advantage of fast primes is they focus in dim light. Set up some candles in your

home and program the whole thing out. Then do a practice at the church.

[cjogo]

I have never even been happy with 400 ISO. I would simply use a mono pod >> 1/8 sec ~~ wide open and a bounce flash with a angled card ..test until it looks "natural" ...remember the candles are going to burn-out. You need to retain the exposure for the subjects faces.

[surfidaho]

A flash would totally ruin the mood.

 

I recommend all the above comments about fast primes and noise tolerant bodies (if you can get one) but I also strongly second Ben Rubinstein's suggestion about underexposing by a stop to get yourself a little more shutter speed and pushing the exposure up in RAW.

 

That said, you may be pleasantly surprised at how much light you have to work with. And the only thing crappy about the 50mm f1.8 is the build quality. The image quality is fine.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[surfidaho]

One more thing...never go above ISO 800 on any camera body that costs less than a new motorcycle. But I push my Rebel XTi to ISO 800 all the time, and it does just fine, particularly if I post process with Noise Ninja.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

 

P.S. Let's not turn this into yet another "XTi bashing" thread.

[davebell]

I had a similar scenario at a wedding, in the UK, a few weeks ago. It was in a very dimly lit ancient mansion - now a hotel - in the countryside. The ceremony was at 4:15pm, just as the sun was virtually set. The reception was also inside this hotel. It was like a CAVE!

 

Overall, I am very pleased with my results. I used the following setups:

 

1) Canon 5D, 24-105mm F4 IS, 580ex with Lightsphere. Exposure roughly F4-F5.6 at 1/25-1/60 depending on scenario, mostly at 3200 ISO. This allowed a good ambient exposure so as to avoid the "standing in front of a cave" look. Shot in RAW (of course!) and exposures were mostly pretty good, meaning I wasn't trying to pull the exposure up (and noise...) during RAW conversion. Then the magic of Noiseware was applied where necessary and they look great in my humble opinion.

 

2) 350D with 85mm F1.8, no flash. Used this during the ceremony as well and got some nice shots.

 

I think the Lightsphere thing worked a treat, there is no way I could have achieved the sort of lighting I did with direct on-camera flash with no modifier. There was nowhere to bounce off so I thanked my lucky stars for the Lightsphere (not trying to sound to keen...). I bought my Lightshpere off Ebay from a guy in Scotland, cheaper than the distributor.

 

Bottom line; low noise body like a 5D at high ISO, fast glass, noise reduction software.

 

Just my opinion......

[conraderb]

justin - tough situation. make sure you have a tripod.

 

for outdoor lighting, two off camera flashes can be fun if they are very low - you can use them as 'accent' lights on the snow with a great effect.

 

for the ceremony, however, try to get as many candles as possible...and see if you can have the house lights on a dimmer very low - this can sometimes help.

 

good luck!

[grant g]

"I have a 17-55mm f2.8 IS and a 70-200 f2.8 IS and a crappy little 50mm f1.8. And soon to be two 580EX's to go with my two 400D's."

 

I hate to over-simplify your situation here, but I think you will have what you need to do this wedding.

 

Shooting with IS lenses in low light is not *that* hard. Yes, it takes some practice. And yes, you'll have to take multiple shots of some subjects. But I don't think you need a tripod to do this.

 

Learn to shoot in the 1/4 - 1/6 sec range for the 17-55 and down to 1/30 for the 70-200. Then learn to use balanced fill flash in conjunction with slow shutter speeds. Gelling the flash under such conditions will improve overall image quality. Use the 50/1.8 for the shots that need motion stopping shutter speeds.

[cjogo]

I would never attempt a shoot > without flash of some kind. If your ambient is 1/4 sec @ 2.8 with 400 --then your bounced~soft~diffused flash : needs to outputting below that setting. It will even out the lighting --add a little sharpness to the edges.

[pete_s.]

Everyone has their own solution how to deal with problems. I believe you could shoot it with any gear but you have to adjust your vision of how the images shall look to what is possible. The more you want to dictate the look the more specific equipment you will need to pull it off.

 

The problems in a candle lit church are low light levels, high contrast and low color temperatures (low Kelvin).

 

My solution for the ceremony would be a couple of stragetically placed radio triggered, gelled, off camera flashes for a subtle raise of light levels and even out high contrast while still keeping the mood of the scene.

 

Moderatly high iso, slow shutter speeds, wide apertures, monopod for wide shots, tripod for long shots, manual focus when needed, all shots in manual exposure, layer a few wide shots in pp for high contrast, a small flash light to check equipment, a gelled flash in my bag for on-camera use if needed during the ceremony. I would also have thrown in a few shots with motion blur as well as some ambient only, silhuettes and whatever I could make up.

 

And if I used Canon I would have rented/borrowed/stolen a 24mm f/1.4. No, not true...I would already have owned it :-)

 

BTW, you are in a lot of luck Justin because the walls of the church are white. That makes a huge difference.

 

Good luck!

 

Peter

[picturesque]

Under "what is possible" from the above, take into consideration the non-technical effects of your actions. The ceremony may be too short to try different things, and if so, you have to have a plan of action and follow through, keeping things simple. If you shoot a lot during the ceremony (as opposed to shooting sparingly), you may annoy people if you keep popping flashes off. This would ruin the mood more than the actual flash in the resulting images. There isn't any one way of handling this kind of scene. I would also come up with a contingency plan in case things don't go as originally planned.

[bruce_t]

I'd set up some candles in your house and snap some test photos and see what works with your style. See how high an iso you can use to produce good photos and have a friend or family member model so you can see how much motion blur you'll get from slow shutter speeds. A forum can't give a definitive answer of what will work for you because everyone has their own tastes and standards. Only testing can tell you what you need to know. If it were me, I'd strongly consider a tripod. A good tripod can be used as a monopod by extending one leg but a monopod can't be a tripod.

[jonj]

Justin

 

I have a similar issue coming up in Jan. I am setting up a time to go to the church prior to the wedding to test the lighting. It's dark, old and no on the flash etc.

 

Anyone that tells you not to shoot iso 3200 just does not understand PJ wedding photography. Bambi Cantrell shoots a fair bit of her shots in the high iso range.

 

I would shoot with B&W in mind and good luck...