summitar Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 As a member of the LHSA, I received my copy of its publication, The Viewfinder, today. In it were articles by Brian Bower (I have most of his excellent books) and our own frequent contributor, Dr. Albert Knapp. They described their experiences with the Leica M8. Very interesting. They both love the camera. And of course, other articles on things Leica. I encourage all to consider joining this worthy organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikhaugsby Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Of course they love the M8--this is a production put out by Leica, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougfromtumwater Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 That's wrong Eric. The LHSA Viewfinder magazine is published by the Leica Historical Society of America, a non-profit Delaware corporation. It says so on page 3 of the most recent LHSA publication that Kerry refers to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon_dragon Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 His point is still valid. When I was a member of LHSA I don't think I ever saw anything in the magazine that was critical of Leica. It's not where you go to find unbiased reviews of Leica gear, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I've seen very, very few unbiased reviews of Leica equipment - it seems every reviewer has their own agenda when it comes to Leica. I recently purchased an M8, and really like it. But, then I have had an M6 since 1990 and like that too, so I suppose you could say that I'm obviously "biased" towards Leica - and can't render an unbiased comment about the camera. Never mind the fact that I've been in photography since 1967 and own 13 other cameras ranging from a 1967 Nikon F, a Nikon Ftn Photomic, a Nikon F2 Photomic, Plaubel 670, Plaubel 67W, Horseman FA 4x5, Cambo monorail 4x5, Hasselblad 500CM system, Horseman 612, Minolta range finder, Canon S45, Holga, and...oh, yes an Eddie Bauer 110... I have NO idea about cameras, have drunk the Leica Kool-Aid and will only say nice things about Leica because I have nothing else to compare it to - and no experience with any other types of cameras.... Whatever....the M8 has its flaws (as do ALL cameras), but it's still a great piece of equipment and makes really nice images, IF you want to take the time to learn how to use it...next... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 >>> I've seen very, very few unbiased reviews of Leica equipment - ...<P> <a href= "http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotographyfeatures/3403/marooned-leica- lovers.html">Some call it like they "see" it...</a> www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitar Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 Hello! Did I accidently post this note about the LHSA Viewfinder M8 articles on politico.com which is rife with religious wacko's with closed minds that were formed in the dark ages? No, I just checked. I posted it on photo.net. Please get a grip. Brian Bower, whose various Leica books I really like, bought both of his M8s himself. He addresses the various "flaws" that have come to light and describes how it affects his photography. Dr. Knapp is an MD that posts here frequently. I don't think he is affiliated with Leica. They have both put the M8 through its paces and think it is a great camera. Read the articles and make up your own mind. It might be comforting to live in a black-white binary world, but it is also delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 "Some call it like they "see" it..." Yeah ...a review from 2006...okay. So far, I've had no problems with the IR issue..even without the IR filters. Like I've said previously - you have to work with the camera. That includes setting up custom white balance profiles for it. You'd have to work with the camera to understand the difference that makes. The way I "see it" - the camera performs exactly as I need it to...but again, I'm biased...I have to be to own one - right? You'd have to figure that if I can afford an M8 + the other cameras I own, I probably could have purchased a Nikon or Canon - so what are the reasons I chose an M8? I have my reasons and none of the Canon or Nikon products will fulfill those...but, by owning one I become biased so none of that matters...I can't be credible discussing the camera. If I understand this correctly, only people who don't own the camera, have no reason to invest the time to make it work to its potential, and conduct a limited "testing" period are credible...when talking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_wright1 Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 as an LHSA member (and contribuitor to the magazine) I'd think you'd be interested in some comments from people that actually use the camera... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_breeze2 Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Kerry, By now you've probably realized that this is not a supportive web site when it comes to the M8. I made a public service announcement a week ago, to inform potential buyers of the M8, about an upcoming price increase and it had to be removed because the hecklers got so bad. It is a shame that this site cannot show support for M8 users and let each of us enjoy the decisions we've made about our choices of photographic equipment, but it is why so many M8 owners now go to the Leica Users Forum site to have intelligent and meaningful discussions about their equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kens Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 One unfortunate feature of photo.net is the Unified Forum view. All new posts pop up on this view regardless of the intended forum. So a Leica post pops up in front of non-Leica people, and there are plenty of them just waiting to jump all over anything Leica, esp M8. I'm sure there are plenty of Leica users, too, who feel they need to throw their 2 cents in over and over again. So between these a Leica M8 post has a slim chance of staying on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 >>> Yeah ...a review from 2006...okay. So far, I've had no problems with the IR issue..even without the IR filters. Like I've said previously - you have to work with the camera. That includes setting up custom white balance profiles for it. You'd have to work with the camera to understand the difference that makes. Steve, seriously, you should let leica engineers know about your discovery. Seems they (and their customers) could have saved a ton of money, commotion, and grief. >>> Kerry, By now you've probably realized that this is not a supportive web site when it comes to the M8. True, there are some photographers interested in the truth; shortcomings as well as features. Not everyone is a fanboy... www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Brad - I fail to see any point your attempting to make. I have not made any "discoveries" other than how to use the camera to the best of it's potential. That's a user problem - not an engineering problem. Possibly you should try using one....? Or...? If you have no experience, all the reading of "critiques" won't help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 >>> Brad - I fail to see any point your attempting to make. Steve, it's not that difficult to understand. You say you have no problem with the IR issue - without using filters. Because you know how to work the camera, set it up, etc. Leica's solution to the IR problem is to use filters. They (leica engineers, management, marketing, whoever) should talk to you and find out the path to success. Sounds a lot easier, and less costly, than dealing with screw-on filters leica engineering came up with after people complained about the magenta problem. >>> Possibly you should try using one....? Or...? If you have no experience, all the reading of "critiques" won't help you. I considered it, but without an AA filter and weak IR rejection, I passed. I'm not in the camp that has to have the absolute best sharpness. Rarely do I see photos where their success is driven by "the best" sharpness - other than perhaps commercial photography done in a studio. And I like the advantages of a modern SLR. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Brad - I'm not a "fanboy." I actually know how and why things should work, and I can give you a critique of every piece of equipment that I own - detailing my personal perceived shortcomings of the equipment. The M8 is no different. It has it's shortcomings and problems, but nothing outside of what I've worked with previously. In fact, in many cases it has less shortcomings. For example, I don't have to carry a special screw driver to re-cock the shutter mechanism like I do with my Hasselblad, in case it partially de-cocks when changing between lenses, and/or extension tubes. My Nikon n90? Well, I have a list of "wish it didn't," or, "Wish it would.." You're really trying to make more of whatever, for your own purposes than the truth in regards to the M8. I can list the short comings, and they're waaay less than what's included in using a Hasselblad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_fang Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 <i>So far, I've had no problems with the IR issue..even without the IR filters.</i> <p>I'd say this qualifies as a discovery. If you've found a way around the M8's well-known rendering of blacks as purples/maroons, without needing IR filters, conversion to B&W, or avoidance of the color black altogether, do tell. I'm sure a lot of people would like to know.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_ Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 >>> Brad - I'm not a "fanboy." Didn't call you one. You do seem a bit over-sensitive, and defensive, with respect to your above comments tendered open loop, and towards others views about equipment. www.citysnaps.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Brad - the latest iteration of the firmware seems to have cured (in some way) a lot of the IR issues. In fact, there is a new setting on the menu system called "IR/UV" Whatever...honestly, I have no problem using an IR filter if needed. I have B+W or Heliopan filters on every single lens I own - regardless of format, because of the extreme amount of dust where I live. The dust isn't easily cleaned off. In fact, it's destructive because of how coarse it is. I'd much rather trash a $100 + filter than a lens. In 30 years, I'd be hard pressed to show you any filter related "problems" in 80,000 plus exposures. So, if I need an IR filter on the M8 - it's no different (to me) than shooting any of the other cameras I have - save the super duper plastic lens on my Holga or the Eddie Bauer 110. Either of those cameras would only benefit by additional scratches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Dear Mr. Fang --- I can only relate my experiences which cannot be ubiquitously applied. If you have a problem with that - it's your problem... Have you used the camera? Or, are you only providing a drive-thru comment with no experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_fang Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 <i>Brian Bower, whose various Leica books I really like, bought both of his M8s himself. He addresses the various "flaws" that have come to light and describes how it affects his photography. Dr. Knapp is an MD that posts here frequently. I don't think he is affiliated with Leica. They have both put the M8 through its paces and think it is a great camera.</i> <p>You certainly don't need to be "affiliated" with Leica to be biased. Brian Bower has written numerous books on Leica and has a dedicated pro-Leica readership that he depends on and therefore probably wouldn't want to anger. As well, both he and Dr. Knapp paid for their cameras - and paying $5k+ a pop is just as likely to bias a reviewer as if the camera was "gifted" to them by the company. A loaner with a requirement to be returned is really the only way to go. </p> <p>From <a href="http://www.lhsa.org/vf_subscriptions.html" target="_blank">LHSA's subscriptions page</a>:</p> <p><i>"If you are a vendor of Leica products and would like to advertise on the LHSA Web site or in the Viewfinder journal, contact the LHSA Headquarters office at..."</i></p> <p>Lots of potential here for bias and conflict of interest. Any potential buyer with an ounce of common sense probably shouldn't put too much stock into what's printed in this magazine.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_fang Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 <p><i>I can only relate my experiences which cannot be ubiquitously applied. If you have a problem with that - it's your problem...</i></p> <p>Somehow I knew you'd say that...</p> <p><i>Have you used the camera? Or, are you only providing a drive-thru comment with no experience?</i></p> <p>I have, and the magenta issue is why I returned it (two bodies). I guess I'll just continue to wait for a "ubiquitously applied" solution. Perhaps that will come in the form of the M9...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 "A loaner with a requirement to be returned is really the only way to go." I agree with you totally. I was really skeptical about the camera. However, I have the luxury of knowing the Leica rep for my area for nearly 30 years. Over the past year, I have used the M8 (for free) on extended periods and have evaluated the results. I use a calibrated (color controlled) computer system (including an X-Rite profiling system) with an Epson 9800 printer, and have watched the progession of improvements in the M8 imaging by making a series of 24x36 inch prints of test images over that period. My Plaubel Makina finally needed to go in (again) for repairs to the viewinder system. The last time it went in cost nearly $800. I'm sure this time it would have been over $1,000. At that price - I really needed to look at a replacement (size, portability, etc.) - the M8 kicks the bejezus out of any of my 35mm equipment - in fact, it's close (but does not equal) the 6x7. I have no problem with dumping the camera in 4-5 years if something of the same size and simplicity shows up --- I just need a replacement NOW ...not in some unknown time frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_swinehart Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 "I can only relate my experiences which cannot be ubiquitously applied. If you have a problem with that - it's your problem..." "Somehow I knew you'd say that..." Likewise... You see how this can go on - and on - and on - with no real meaningful interchange... Next.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_fang Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 The point was that what you are saying flies in the face of what many people, users and reviewers alike, have been complaining about since shortly after the M8's release. I was hoping you'd be able to share exactly what you did to solve the IR problem, but you said that only you know this secret, and no one else would be able to duplicate it. <p>"Somehow I knew you'd say that..." because I honestly didn't expect you to drop a bombshell proving the Leica engineers to be a bunch of overpaid buffoons. I was right.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_fang Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 <i>Over the past year, I have used the M8 (for free) on extended periods and have evaluated the results.</i> <p>In the interest of fairness, do supply the name of your Leica rep so your claim of free extended loan can be verified. Then let us know exactly what you have done to circumvent the need for IR filters in order for the M8 to render blacks properly in color capture.</p> <p>I don't know if you realize it, but you now have the opportunity to become a champion for the Leica M8. It's been denigrated in press, reviled by users and reviewers alike, for a problem you apparently have a solution to. Please let us know about it, so that we can at least try to implement it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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