Buying first 8x10 on a budget. What movements do I need?

[jon_bergman1]

I have decided to start shooting 8x10 and I am looking for a camera on a tight budget. Now I wonder

which kind I movement I need. I have shot 4x5 a few times and assisted photographer shooting 4x5 and

8x10. It has always been portrait or fashion and the few times movement been used its been tilt(front) and

just once I have seen swing been used. I will use my camera mostly for portrait on location. A very friendly

camera repairman has offered to restore a field camera for me for just ?190. It has limited tilt and shift

and no swing. I am very exited about getting in to 8x10 and though I don't think I will use movement

loads it might be fun experimenting. Would you recommend me to just start cheap or get a camera with

more movement for experimenting?

[zachk1]

What types of things do you plan on photographing? It might be worth it to borrow or rent some gear for a weekend to see how you like it.

[jon_bergman1]

Pictures of people on locations. Have a look at www.jonbergman.com

[jtk]

IMO one should want full movements MUCH more with 8X10 than with smaller formats: The longer lenses have more issues with depth of field and it's more fun and easy to see the effects of movements with 8X10 than mere 4X5. I miss my old Agfa Ansco.

[keith_clementson]

Your photos are outstanding, perfectly baIanced compositions that never bored me

throughout the whole portfolio. Since you are most often anchoring your compositions

around the center, I can't foresee much need for many movements. Fewer movements, in my

opinion, might even accentuate your treatment. The only reason you might consider a

camera with more movements is the unforeseen future - an new artistic direction that you

never planned on taking - when you'll wish your camera was more capable. 8x10 is going to

rock for you.

[jon_bergman1]

Thanks Keith,

 

Quite a few of my pictures have been shot with a 50mm lens with a 6x6 camera. In an earlier

post I asked about factors for converting between MF and LF. Should I be looking for a

200-250mm for my 8x10?

[peter_yee]

I would have to say get the camera the camera repairman has offered. Its not really starting cheap if you consider other items you need to get. You still need a lens and support items such as film holders, tripod, and so on. If you like the format, this entry camera will give you a very good idea what you want to buy next. For an introduction to using the camera movements, I would suggest reading Steve Simmons' book "Using the View Camera". It has a nice introduction into how and why of using movements.

 

The 200-250 mm lens would be very much like your 50mm on the 6x6 camera. However, you can't just buy any lens. The larger formats like 8x10 needs a large image circle from a lens to insure coverage of the picture or else you will get vignetting. The large lormat format photography website at http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ has a nice section detailing old and new large format lens. You might find this helpful in choosing a lens.

[User_503771]

First off, I'd say that a number of the shots on your site, if taken with an 8x10, would require some movements, even with a wide-angle lens. Most necessary movements would be at the front standard, possibly requiring both tilts and swings.

 

What kind of camera is it your friend is offering? If it's an Ansco Commercial, it can be adapted to include swings at the front by putting a 1/8" thick piece of wood under the front standard, which would allow it to clear the front "barrier" lip of wood that sticks up on the standard base. I've done this and it works fine. That camera also allows swings and tilts at the back. The front shift is valuable too. A fine camera.

 

In terms of the lens, I'd say somewhere around 190mm would give you a rough equivalent of your 50mm on 6x6. A nice 7-1/2" Dagor would do the trick, and come out a lot cheaper than the newer offerings. Coated or uncoated they take great pictures; you just have to adjust a little bit to account for the lack of coating.

 

If possible, though, I would avoid a camera with very limited movements. They are -- as noted above -- far more important in 8x10 than in smaller formats because of the depth of field problems with the longer lenses.

 

However, there are lots of good cameras around for not much dough -- the Ansco Commercial is my favorite, but the Burke and James models are often nice too, just heavier and "clunkier" in my opinion. Plus the Ansco has its extension rail built in, so it never gets lost.

 

There were a few versions of the Gundlach 8x10. Make sure to get one with full front movements (you can tell by looking for a knob and hardware at the top of the front standard which controls tilt, and the knob and groove at the bottom that controls swings and shifts) and make sure it comes with an extension rail. They tend to be flimsier than the Ansco, but lighter too. Get one in good shape that's not too rickety.

 

If your friend is, indeed, offering up one of the Ansco's, I'd jump on it if I were you!

[jon_bergman1]

The cameras my repairman has offered is first the rebuilt I mentioned and its said to be "an

old gandolfi style" for 190 pound and a Agfa/Ansco which has more movements but is" heavy

to very heavy and bulky" for 210 pounds(brittish).

[jtk]

Jon, your portfolio suggests you may never get more than 100meters from a car. Therefore weight should not be a consideration. The tripod will be a bigger concern.

 

Some 8X10 (and smaller) cameras were built only for day in, day out studio portraits: front movements were actually undesirable. You don't seem to be a studio guy and you don't seem to be into head/shoulders portraits, so you may want something that'll give you a little foreground...with 8X10 you won't get any foreground without front tilts.

[jon_bergman1]

"You don't seem to be a studio guy and you don't seem to be into head/shoulders portraits,

so you may want something that'll give you a little foreground...with 8X10 you won't get any

foreground without front tilts."

 

Please explain this to me. I don't have tilt on my MF camera.

[steve_simmons1]

The essential movements, IMHO, are swing and tilt front and rear. You can mimic shift and rise and fall with these movements. You will also want a bellows that is 25% longer then the longest lens you will be using.

 

steve simmons

[keith_clementson]

"Please explain this to me. I don't have tilt on my MF camera."

 

Your MF is a much smaller film area and therefore has much more intrinsic depth of field, so

corrective movements are not (typically) necessary. The lens alone can usually converge

(focus) the light rays from your subject onto that smaller area (6cmx6cm), but NOT onto the

enormous film size of the 8x10, so DOF must be aided with movements - the manipulation

of planes of focus.

[steve_simmons1]

The issue is not the size of the film but the focal length of the lenses. On a 4x5 camera tha normal focal length is 150mm and on 8x10 it is 300mm. These lenses, regardless of the film size, will have less dof for any given f-stop than a 50mm lens.

 

Here are some books I generally recommend.

 

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone

 

Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

 

Using the View Camera that I wrote.

 

Check your local library

 

There are several articles in the Free Articles section of the View Camera magazine web site

 

www.viewcamera.com

 

I am doing a basic large format class next Junbe as part of foto3 in Colorado. foto3 is June 6-8 in Ft. Collins.

 

 

steve simmons

[keith_clementson]

... which brings us back to the general rule of thumb: The larger the film size, the greater

the need for movements in order to get desired depth of field.

 

Jon, when Richard Avedon used an 8x10 without movements for his American West shots, he

had but one plane of focus - a person standing paralell to his film plane. He did not need

movements because he did not need to retain depth of field in a foreground (say, the grass

on the ground in front of a subject) or somewhere else in a larger scene (say, a long wall to

the right of the subject, or a complex background). Those are planes of focus not paralell to

the film plane and therefore they require some voodoo with the camera movements.