So what if it seems like a very basic question....

[petemillis]

I guess this is philosophical type question - here goes....

 

People sometime ask very basic questions - like how big should my flash be, or

how long should my lens be.

 

And they receive all sorts of answers ranging from:

- helpful ones that acknowledge it may be someone who is perhaps inexperienced

or confused, and the answers are perhaps given by someone who knows what it's

like to be in that position or likes to help others

- through answers that point them in the rough direction to find help

themselves in the forum or elsewhere

- to answers from very very big and clever and experienced photographers who

tell them they shouldn't be asking such questions and if they need to ask the

question then they should even be using a camera.

 

If you put yourself in the position of parhaps a new forum member or someone

who was nervous about something, which sort of answer helps you most?

 

If you are the person reading the question, which sort of answer do you feel

is the most helpful?

 

If you can't be bothered to help, is it most helpful to ignore the question or

to chip in and tell them not to ask stupid questions?

 

From a learning point of view - what method is likely to result in a positive

outcome with people feeling good, and in a negative outcome with people

feeling bad?

 

Maybe there's nothing philospical about this at all - as I seem to have lost

track of what I was thinking. If this is the case, then any mod please feel

free to move to casual. (MODERATOR- Done.)

 

Pete

[Matt Laur]

I think that if a question betrays a huge, fundamental misunderstanding or lack of awareness on the part of the person asking, then the best thing is usually to suggest that they take a little time with the search engine and the existing conversations that cover the same ground. Because in doing so they'll learn two things: that the topic in which they're interested is a lot more complex than they realize, and (by seeing lots of questions that are well-asked and answered) that there is an effective way to get to the bottom of some specific issues.

 

People who ask "I'm new. What lens should I get?" Aren't idiots (usually), they just don't understand the depths they are (or can be) getting into. At that level, reminding them of (or showing them) the value in doing some reading is far more valuable than tossing out a personal recommendation for a specific lens. It's not like they're usually told to run out and order a book, which they then have to wait for and read before they're "allowed" to ask a more specific and productive question. No, they're usually encouraged to click their mouse a couple more times, and thus have access to a staggering wealth of insights and information that probably speaks exactly to their general questions.

<br><br>

There have been a lot of threads on this subject lately (the "how to handle the clumsy or awkwardly asked question" topic). The issue of manners has been well covered. I think the real issue here is the need to cultivate an awareness of how much information is already there, rather than enabling the sense of entitlement that seems to be growing worse by the day. I try to answer a few questions each day, chiming in on everything from "why does my kit have a an all-white umbrella" to obscure questions about storage device formatting. But the spirit in which a question is asked is the main qualifier, as far as I'm concerned.

<br><br>

Another twist on the issue: many questions DO cover old ground ("what is 'DoF'?") but do so in the context of asking about a brand new lens or camera that isn't going to be addressed specifically in older, archived conversations.

[JDMvW]

As (almost [;)]) always, Matt has gone right to the core of the answer. I think most are aware that there are 'newbies' on the forums who don't have a clue, but who are sincerely trying to get some help. Like Matt, most of us try to take our 'turn' at answering some of these questions on occasions. However, it is also the case that the very process of posting prominently features a search box, and it is also clear that many of these persons have NOT tried to use that feature.

[john_macpherson]

Two ways to look at this - the newbie question is a door you can help them to open (by giving some guidance) and allowing them to enter this brave new world of photo stuff.

 

Or you can slam it in their faces and they'll either go away dejected or return to haunt you forever.

 

Best to help I think!

[Matt Laur]

John: Well, sure. But the question is, do you help them by directly answering the question they THINK they're asking, or by directing them towards the resources that will help them understand that they're usually asking too simple, or the wrong question? Pointing out (no matter how politely) that they're misunderstanding the issue about which they're posting is often seen or felt as the "slam" that you mention. When people actually search on the phrase "depth of field" and bother to click through just half a dozen of the results, they'll quickly realize that they need to bone up a little more, and ask a question that actually gets to what they want to know. I sometimes play the crutch, and provide an answer that actually provides the information they need, whether they know it or not. And, sometimes I think I'm being <i>more</i> help by steering them towards some homework to do. I'm sure both responses are often perceived as me being a jerk... though it's really the last thing I want.

<br><Br>

I spent months digesting threads on this and other forums before feeling I had (while also getting my feet wet, technically) anything constructive to offer. I think I've only ever actually <i>asked</i> less than half a dozen questions. Not because I'm not wandering in the wilderness - figuratively most of the time, and literally some of the time - but because almost everthing thing I've needed to know or explore has already been discussed here at great length, and it's trivial to find it.

<br><Br>

But you do need to know how to ask a question before you can ask it - and to the extent that newbies (like me!) take at least one deep breath and a look around before firing off a question, it's a fair bet that it can be done while inspiring only helpful responses. I maintain that the only time any of this goes badly is when the person asking the question is socially clumsy about it. It has nothing to do with "internet" expertise, or photographic experience. Most coarse exchanges here stem from oblivious behavior and a deliberate shrugging off of simple pleasantries - not ignorance about what "L"-grade lenses are, or why 1/60th doesn't do well for gymnastics.

[sitemistic]

I try to answer newbie questions when the person asking represents themselves as such

and seem genuinely confused about some basic point.

<p>However, what is becoming more and more common are questions like, "I'm going to

shoot a big wedding in an hour and need to know what to set my flash on because my

client wants flash and I've never used it before." I have simply lost patience with folks who

buy a kit SLR one week and hang up a shingle as a professional the next, then come onto

forums expecting respect.

<p>I have helped a lot of people over the years in the 3D world learn the basics of

photography, but none of them were pretending to be professionals.

[petemillis]

Jim, I strongly agree about "clueless" pro wedding or portrait photogs! Some people seem to think that all they need do is buy a camera that resembles something a serious photog may use and they think they can make money - with no idea of how to make nice pictures.

 

The reason I asked the question is that I see many questions that I would have been embarrassed to ask even when first used a camera close on 30 years ago. But then I was taught by my mum, I read a couple of books, and I figured stuff out for myself. I was sort of wondering if nowadays there is a tendency for people to embark on something themselves with the internet as the sole source of information. Maybe they see other internet users as "mum" or "dad" and haven't learned how to research answers themselves.

[les]

This thread kind of links to this one:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Mmei

 

From my perspective (and it appears it is not a view shared by many others), about the best thing to do is to direct people to sources of some basic information.

 

The problem with many questions is that they have to be answered in a context, and the answer given relies on certain knowledge of the person who asked the question.

 

As an example - I had an interesting conversation with some guy couple of days ago. It started like this: "Q:How do I calculate wave length ?" "A:In what medium ?" "Q: In air." "A: At sea level, it is about 20.1*sqrt(T), where T is temperature measured on Kelvin scale." "Q:What is Kelvin scale ?" "A: Same as Celsius, except 0 deg is set at absolute zero." "Q:What is absolute zero ?" "A:Mate, what is this that you are trying to do ?" "Q:I am trying to calculate wave length of sound, for 100Hz frequency. The speed of sound is in the formula." "A: OK, but what is the purpose ?" "Q: Oh, it sits in some bigger formula - I am designing a subwoofer, and I have all the formulae, but I need data etc. etc."

 

At which point I said: Mate, maybe you should grab some basic book dealing with physics, and then read some book about accoustics. After that - find some info on subwoofer design. The best thing for now would be to grab some existing design and trying to build it.

 

This was where the guy got offended...Obviously, he had an expeectation that I will cram the whole course of math, physics and accoustics in my answer - which I can't do anyway, I am not a sound engineer, I design aircraft components for a living.

[DickArnold]

I started a photo business by chance. It was not in my plans. I did a wedding when an impaired photographer dropped out at the last minute. My competence quickly led to more business and I was on my way. However, I knew nothing about the business end of things and my mistakes in not setting up clear buiness understandings cost me some money and a lot of agony. I knew nothing about photonet in 1997 and had to learn the hard and expensive way. A few direct and clear answers, had I had a resource like this, could have saved me that money and agony. IMO there are some sharp people on this site. There are also people whose writing is so rambly and fuzzy that it is almost incomprehensible. I have also seen some incorrect answers to simple questions by one of the know-it-alls that dwell on these pages. The problem is certainly not all on the side of the newbie. I also have posted a resume of my photo experience so that the reader can judge my credibility and level of knowledge when reading what I write. It bothers me to read one of the know-it-alls who have no background or pictures posted. I don't, personally, give them much credibility.

[sitemistic]

Pete, you are probably correct. But some of the questions asked could be answered if they

just read the manual. My experience is that many 20-somethings are looking for instant

gratification, and simply don't want to take the time to research something and learn for

themselves. They just want you to tell them whether to use Landscape Mode or Sports

Mode.

<p>Digital cameras today hide the relationships between focal length, aperture and

shutter speed that you need to know to take anything beyond snapshots. So I'm sure it is

hard for newbies to understand this stuff. If I think someone is serious, I'll suggest they

buy an old Pentax K1000 and shoot some film. Then they will have to learn these

relationships. While they could learn it from the Internet, many don't seem to even spend

that much time...so, they ask questions in forums and get angry when you can't provide an

instant answer they can understand.

<p>Maybe I'm just a grumpy old guy :)

[DickArnold]

Jim. I am a seventy-five year grumpy old man. I swim a mile at a stretch and am very active learning all I can about my equipment. See my post about Adobe Lynda in digital darkroom. All I can say is lead, follow or get out of the way. Not many young photographers will go back to the seventies. I think we should lead and point them in the right direction here in Photonet.

[rachelfoster]

Ok, I'm a clueless newbie. I ask questions and have not the slightest idea of how complex and involved the answers are. Some very kind people have tried to answer directly. Unfortunately, sometimes they didn't realize how VERY uninformed I am/was. Others have directed me toward the correct places to discover the answers myself.

 

What I've found is that every newbie will have to struggle through and learn it in her own way, at his own pace. What I find most helpful: Give me a general direction to go, but don't give me a lot of information. I'm bumbling through and a few gentle "street signs" help enormously. A detailed road map may be overwhelming.

 

I'm proud to say that I know know my ISO from my aperture.

 

On the flip side, one day I'll be among the informed and it will be my turn to gently nudge the newbies. I look forward to that.

[thomas_hardy1]

We must remember that we're just talking about photography, life or limb is (usually) not at

stake.

[gary_watson]

Such questions once got deleted after the ModGods told 'em to do some research and return with specific, focused problems.The volume of repetitive, vague, sometimes pointless questions suggests many people can't/won't figure anything out for themselves.Most such questions seem to be ignored. Why's that surprising?

[DickArnold]

Gary. To answer your question. Things have changed. I have a close relative who doesn't know Fstop from shutter speed. Her questions to me are like "how do I fix this picture" or my new "24-105 doesn't make good pictures." I showed her it was her not the lens. However, she knows what's really important i.e. where to point the camera. She has published two covers on wildlife magazines and several others inside. She just puts her XT on P, like I told her, and shoots pictures with a couple of good lenses that I recommended to her. One of these days I will spend a week with her on fundamentals when I can visit with her. IMHO, as pointed out in Lynda, you shoot with what you have and make the best of it. I have seen some damn good point and shoot pictures. How do people like her learn. From people like you and me. And, as in her case, she doesn't really know enough to know what to ask. Think of her potential when she does. Maybe not in your case, but in a lot of these posts I sense a lot of smugness. If PN is strictly for the congnoscenti then the "ModGods" should so state that. As I said earlier in this thread I wish I had found it earlier when I started doing weddings ten years ago. Everyone starts at sometime.

[vivek]

I read this thread with a lot of interest because I personally think it is a fine line between pointing the newbie in the right direction and giving them a direct answer. There are many factors that go into making this decision including the contributor's mood.

 

Also, Dick, some of us _cannot_ share our photos since these are mostly of the family and there are other constraints that prevent public display of the very personal photos. I hope that you do not rely on this alone in deciding whether a person is "good photographer" or not. I am certainly sure that photos help immensely, but they, in my book, are not the only decision factor.

 

That being said, I have just one simple rule, avoid being rude / smug as far as possible.

 

-- Vivek

[rachelfoster]

I suppose this is not news to anyone, but sometimes newbies do make an effort. My own efforts have been perhaps nonlinear, and not fast enough, but I am making progress in my own, convoluted way.

 

And...to add to my library (Photography for Dummies) I just added another book (The Complete Idiot's Guide to Canon EOS Digital Cameras). Wish me luck!

 

Again, speaking from the Newbie perspective, point me. Telling me may mean I'm getting information beyond my knowledge level.

 

And still I can't resist asking questions.....!

[DickArnold]

Vivek. My point was about those making judgmental and authoritative comments on PN. I think they would have more credibility, at least with me, if they posted a bio and/or some pictures. Vivek I do not judge anyone as a photographer. I do not rate pictures. Tastes are varied and valid. What bothers me are those passing themselves off as experts without sharing anything of themselves. Jeff Spirer is an example of someone whose opinions I respect because I know something of his background and he backs his comments by regularly posting his work. That's my point. It certainly is not aimed at you. I agree with your comments.

[southerngrace1]

Hi Pete! Would it be fair to assume that your initial question in this thread was sparked by what I went through last night? Nonetheless, I am glad that you brought the subject up. I was a newbie for all of about 10 minutes last night when I decided to take a leap of faith and ask a question. Most answers were helpful, but there was this one guy...

 

Look, I am self taught. I have been shooting for about 4 years and started out with a d70. I upgraded to a d200 about 1 1/2 years ago and I love it, but it hasn't been without its challenges either. What some assumed with the question that I posted is that I didn't do any research on my own before asking, which is untrue. For those that know me well, know I spend an incredible amount of time researching and reading my camera manual. Asking for help, personally, is the last thing that I want to do. But I had one specific problem that dealt with DOF when shooting a portrait (which I don't usually do)and I asked a question about "opening up" a lens (I knew how to do it, but did not know the term for it). Let me say, that is the point where I was treated like I stupid.

 

I know I still have plenty of learning to do and a place like this has a wealth of knowledge. I found this site quite by accident. There were several threads that I came across about focusing issues with the d200, but none of them answered my particular problem. So I decided to give it a go.

 

Anyway, my whole point, really, is that everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity no matter what the question is at hand. Aren't we all, for the most part, a group of strangers that all have a love for one common thing and strive to become better at it?

[Bill C]

>> [Dick Arnold] It bothers me to read one of the know-it-alls who have no background or pictures posted. I don't, personally, give them much credibility. <<

 

Dick, sorry to hear it, as I am one who has not posted background or pictures. I hope that you are doing follow up checks on the bios you DO see; this IS the Internet after all, and a person might say anything.

 

I will confess that I got a bit irritated reading your comments, which is mainly why I'm posting here. It added to the fire a bit reading into Leszek's post. I think Leszek is exactly on point. However, a couple of folks were taking him to task; I won't go into details, but I think they were way out of line.

 

Back to this thread, I just answered a newbie question (and was a bit rude, perhaps). I'm not going to link to it, but if you click on my name it was the previous post. I probably spent as much time answering as the poster did searching. My opinion is that they didn't try hard enough, but alternatively, maybe they just don't know how to search. But I wonder where the helpful people in this thread were, out leading and pointing newbies in the right direction, perhaps?

 

My posting immediately prior to that was different. That person, Vlad, clearly put some effort into trying to solve the question. He did some experiments and was having problems sorting out the results. I tried to steer the thought process a bit which hopefully helped. In a case like that, I'm glad to bend over backwards.

 

In neither case was a bio or posted pictures important (you can see I have a hard time letting that go).

 

I just have two things to ask (or expect) from either newbies or oldsters: first, be willing to do some work yourself, and second, whatever you may have learned from me, be ready to pass it on to the next person.

[DickArnold]

Bill C. For all I know you may be a perfectly nice guy. And you may have great photography qualifications but I don't know that and can't judge it. In my fifty year work history I made judgments about the credibility of the people with whom I worked and who worked for me. I had to know something about their human experiences to do that. It makes a person out of them instead of a guru. I took a Dale Carnegie course many years ago and I learned a couple of valuable lessons. One of them was to speak from your own experience and to share that experience if you want to be credible to other people. Staying anonymous is your choice. Read my bio and look at my pictures. I think they show a modestly successful photographer in a small town environment. I would never make it in high level photography probably. So you can judge my comments against that background. You will note that, following Dale Carnegie, I most often speak from my own experience because that's all I am really expert about. If someone chooses to lie about that on this forum it has no great consequence to me; as someone said this is not life and death it's just about taking pictures. If I had read someone's personal experience in contracting for weddings I would not have lost several hundred bucks on one of the first large weddings I did. The people who have the most credibility to me are the ones, as Dale Carnegie espoused, that speak from their own experience, and who have patience, rahter those who pronounce their truths. Having said all that it is not said with malice it is just my personal philosophy.

[Bill C]

Dick, thanks for the response. I guess we will simply have to go on with different philosophies. Your viewpoint that a bio and photos are very important, my viewpoint that forum postings should be able to stand on their own, by virtue of being well reasoned or argued, or by other means.

 

Ok,I looked at your bio; nice photo of yourself and I learned something of your history. But I feel that I learned a lot more about your level of qualifications, in a photographic sense, from reading through some of your individual postings.

 

BTW, if it makes you feel better, I have personal experience in nearly every situation where I post. If not, I ususally say so. If you doubt this, feel free to try me on anything, via email.