Grey Market

[kevin_kolosky]

well, I don't have experience with Robert White so I guess I have to

shut up about that situation and just say that it should be justified

on a case by case basis. So maybe everyone here should write down

their hourly wage or yearly salary, and then we can all decide

whether we thing that person should be paid that or whether it might

be better to bring somebody in from another country who will work at

that job for less money and less benefits. I think the clothing

industry has gong through this before, and so has the automobile

industry. Anyway . . . . . hurray for capitalism. Kevin

[mark_windom]

As a spin-off of Ed's question who is the official U.S. distributor

of Arca products? In other words who in the U.S. offers a USA

warranty on Arca? And if you do buy gray market Arca and need it

repaired or it is defective upon purchase what then?

[david_goldfarb]

If I were particularly gung ho about "buying American," I would not

approach it by purchasing products made in Germany, Japan, and

Switzerland, even if they came by way of a U.S. distributor.

Seriously, if this is an important motivation (it isn't for me), then

at least stick to the fine products made by Wisner, Canham, Galvin,

Gowland, AWB, Ries, Wimberley, Kirk, Norman, and such. Call me

sentimental, but I feel much more sympathy for people who actually

innovate and make fine products by hand than for the distributors.

 

<p>

 

Even living in New York City, I send most of my repair work out of

state these days. If I have to ship to the UK or Europe, that's not

really a big deal in the age of FedEx and UPS.

[michael_feldman1]

Arca-Swiss Inc., 442 W Belden, Chicago, IL 60614, (773) 248-2513,

fax: (773) 248-2774

[upscan]

Kevin: Supporting the tactics of greedy firms that use the subterfuge

of trademarks and exclusive distributorships to gouge the citizenry

is unpatriotic because it undermines the country's productivity.

Such firms may pay taxes but otherwise their contribution to the

economy is sub-optimal in as much as in their hands your money is

worth less.

In a free society citizens can drive the gougers out business by not

to giving them their money. It is he citizens patriotic duty to do so.

[upscan]

Kevin: Supporting the tactics of greedy firms that use the subterfuge

of trademarks and exclusive distributorships to gouge the citizenry

is unpatriotic because it undermines the country's productivity.

Such firms may pay taxes but otherwise their contribution to the

economy is sub-optimal in as much as in their hands your money is

worth less.

In a free society citizens can drive the gougers out business by not

to giving them their money. It is the citizens patriotic duty to do

so.

[jonathan brewer]

Kevin.....The dealers themselves dump their stock on e-bay when

it's to their advantage, undercutting other dealers in effect, but

does the thought of this being maybe unpatriotic stop them, NO. Have

you ever checked out e-bay, they're 'guys' with 6000 feedbacks, who

would have time to shoot with 6000 feedbacks?

 

<p>

 

I have communicated with some of these folks and they are the

dealers or are affiliated with the dealers. They'll cut each others

throat when it suits them, which is why I can understand why you're so

riled up? I only bought American for years, and most of the time they

didn't even think they had to be polite while I was doing it.

 

<p>

 

I bought a lens from RW that is an additional $1000 here, that

savings goes to my family, and I feel no pain, because this a world

community.

 

<p>

 

Erik....RW is first and foremost a Businessman but consider this;

I've sunk plenty into the pockets of B&H which I consider a good and

honest outfit, truly, but RW did me several favors just based on the

fact that I was a valued customer, he contacts you the next day no ifs

, ands, or buts. He's no saint(who is?), but he's got CLASS.

 

<p>

 

Once he knows you, your word is as good as a check. He is no

saint, but he's is a businessman I perceive to be honest, how many of

those are there?

[b.d.trabitz___]

Kevin,

If all of the photographic equipment we are talking about is NOT

manufactured in this country do not those workers pay taxes in their

country. How then does paying for middleman markups help employ

workers in this country so that they can pay taxes. I imagine that

the staff of the middlemen sellers to retailers is not terribly large

nation wide. Frankly , it would seem to me that since we are

supporting the tax base of other countries by purchasing their

manufactured goods it behooves us as good citizens to save as much as

we can so that we can pay taxes here.

Seriously, every one is obligated to pay a FAIR share of the cost of

government, but not more than a fair share. I see no problem in

paying a FAIR price for an item but I would be a fool to pay more

than that just to support the greed of a seller.

[kevin_kolosky]

Barry

 

<p>

 

Please tell me who you work for and what you make so that I can

decide if you make too much so that I can boycott your company's

product. Come on. Hasselblad USA is not just one guy sitting behind

a desk. Nor is Mamiya. They employ technicians, secretaries,

drivers, accountants, and so on and so forth just as your company

employs you, or you employ yourself. AND as I mentioned, the most

important thing these importers do is to maintain the warranty

department and parts department as well as to let everyone know whats

new and old and all of that good stuff. I don't say you should not

buy from overseas if you want to. What I say is, if we all buy

overseas, then we don't have those importers here, and we don't have

the services they provide either. That is why I buy my film locally

even though I can order it for 50 cents a roll from someplace else.

I like it that there is a photography store close to me that I can go

and browse around in, and have avalailable to ask questions of, and

get things for me in a hurry when I need them. And that is why I

want importers. And why I am willing to pay a little bit more for

them. If you don't want them fine. But then don't come back here

and complain that you can't get warranty service or that some company

is downsizing in its product line or some other stupid complaint.

And don't complain if you happen to lose your job because it was

outsourced to Japan or China or Korea or where ever. Kevin

[b.d.trabitz___]

Kevin,

For what it is worth I am a retired Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon. I

don't really see this as germaine to this discussion. What I do

believe is germaine is the fact that the warranties you seem to feel

are so valuable become terribly overpriced insurance policies(often

with a lot of fine print). Doesn't it make more sense to pay half the

amount that "official' importers are asking and send defective or

broken equipment back to the factory or to a qualified repair shop

here. Postage or Fed ex or UPS rates are not that expensive.

Who repairs equipment after the warrantee expires?

As for dealing with a local shop I too would rather, but problems do

arise. I am still waiting for my local shop to notify me that the

Schneider lens that I ordered two years ago has come in. I now get

the feeling that the salesperson really didn't understand that this

lens was for a 4x5 view camera and not a 35mm slr.

We are not talking about fifty cents more for a roll of film but a

thousand dollars for a lens or a body.My insurance company charges

$1.12/$100 for full coverage insurance. If the impact of not buying

stuff locally and by paying more for film locally why is Kodak

cutting more and more of its production?

Please lets get back to the issue of where these bodies and lenses

are made and where the employees of these manufacturers pay taxes.

Respectfully

Barry Trabitz

[kevin_kolosky]

Dr. Trabitz

 

<p>

 

For what its worth, I am a practicing attorney and a practicing

photographer. I spend 75 percent of my time doing pro-bono work for

poor and disadvantaged people and I work full time. The rest of my

time is spent doing enough work so that I can get by. I earn less in

one year than you probably earned in 2 months. But I still buy my

photography equipment here becasue I believe that buying here creates

jobs here, regardless of whether the jobis working for an importer or

working for a manufacturer. The importance of warranties is secondary

to the importance of supporting our own country. Sadly, much of what

we like to own in this country isn't made in this country becasue of

the very reason I feel strongly about this issue. Once again, I do

not mind if people want to save money by buying someplace else. That

is capitalism and I believe in it. What I do mind is those who are

hypocrits. By that I mean those would would complain they are not

being paid enough and whose every belonging is worth a fortune, but

when it comes time for them to buy it seems everyone elses stuff is

worth nothing. I don't specifically say you are that way becasue I

have no evidence that you are. But I stand by my arguments.

Respectfully, Kevin

[audidudi]

<I>What I say is, if we all buy overseas, then we don't have those

importers here, and we don't have the services they provide

either.</I>

 

<p>

 

Maybe, maybe not. I certainly don't begrudge anyone who earns a buck

but unless those importers that're trying to maintain unrealistically

high margins on their products start to lose sales to those elsewhere

in the world that don't, they have no incentive to lower their prices

or improve their customer service or whatever else might be necessary

to preserve their share of the market they helped to develop. If you

know of a better way to drive this point home to them -- write them a

letter, perhaps? -- then I'm all ears but historically, spending your

money where you get the most perceived value (be it the lowest prices

or the best service) has proven to be the most effective approach.

[jennifer_waak]

Kevin, by locally you mean domestic retailers, not local (as in

Minneapolis), right? I only ask because when I saw some of your posts

in this thread I went back and found an old email from you that states

you buy your film from B&H in bulk and either process locally or ship

it off to Kansas City and you buy most of your equipment off of eBay.

I'm not attempting to take a cheap shot at you, simply trying to

clarify your stance since your posts have read to me as your support

of truly local, not domestic, retailers -- yet in the past you have

failed to practice what you preach. And, if you do mean domestic and

not local, some of your theories about taxes, roads, etc. are negated.

 

<p>

 

While I wholeheartedly support the concept of purchasing locally and

attempt to do so when reasonable, the local stores charge 2-4 times

what I can buy film for at B&H, there is no LF equipment to be found

for the most part, and last time I checked out the darkroom section of

the local "pro" shop I heard the woman working there explaining to

someone that there was no difference between RC and Fiber except that

RC dries faster.

My personal stance is that I while I try to support local retailers,

the price discrepancy becomes an issue. I will pay a slight premium to

support the local shops (because when I need a roll of film TODAY B&H

cannot help me out). However, my overwhelming preference is to buy

from someone who actually understands the equipment and needs of the

LF community. These are the people that are going to continue to stock

the items we want and need and have the best connection to the

manufacturers. I also have an advantage that I only live a few hours

from Badger and my family is from near there so I can somewhat justify

supporting a "local" retailer.

 

<p>

 

Off my soapbox now. My apologies but I feel much better.

[kevin_kolosky]

Jennifer

Yes, I have in the past bought bulk film from B and H but I no longer

do as I try and support the local retailers now even though their

prices are quite high. And if I cannot get it locally I try to buy

it here in the United States. So yes, I mean domestically.

 

<p>

 

Once again, I don't say you shouldn't buy where you want to. All I

say is don't complain when the distributor isn't there, or kodak

isn't there, or something is wrong, when you didn't support them in

the first place.

 

<p>

 

And I am also saying that it is funny to me that people are so

hypocritical. Thinking that their value is so very high, but when you

have to make a deal with someone their value is low. How would you

like it if on your next job you finished and the buyer said well, I

know you asked for $100.00 but I don't think you are worth that so I

will give you $50.00. Or, if you went in for your paycheck and the

boss said well, I know we pay you 25 per hour but this week I am only

going to give you 10 per hour. You would howl bloody murder. But

its okay to tell the guy down the street trying to make a living by

keeping some stuff in stock that you might want or need that he is

charging too much. Bullshit.

 

<p>

 

Kevin

[michael_feldman1]

Kevin, aside from the hypocrisy about your own past purchases

revealed by Jennifer above, it is interesting to note

(www.kjkolosky.com) that about 7 years ago you started a new career

as an attorney in private practice at about 40 years of age. In my

experience with such endeavors, attorneys in individual practice are

constantly scrounging for new business among the local citizenry and

the small business community. In addition, I notice that you are

currently seeking election to a judgeship in your community, which

further necessitates the need to suck up to the locals and buy votes

with your purchases.

 

<p>

 

So in fact, your recent conversion to purchasing local (rather than

from B&H Photo) is a crude sort of barter that is part and parcel of

your struggles as an individual attorney in private practice and your

future political aspirations. In your pursuit of personal financial

rewards, for you to pontificate as some sort of morally superior

person and accuse others of not supporting their country, makes my

stomach turn.

 

<p>

 

I suspect that the example you gave of someone being told they are

only worth $10 per hour comes from a real experience you have had as

an attorney. That could be the result of several factors. First, it

could be the result of an oversupply of attorneys in your area, and

the �market� is telling you that (although you work very hard and

very much enjoy your job) you need to look elsewhere for a career if

you want more money. Better that the �market� tell you what

profession to pursue, rather than like it was in the Soviet Union

when the government assigned people professions based on the �needs�

of the state. Alternatively, it could a reflection of the quality of

service you have provided your clients. Based on the ridiculous

arguments that you put forward in this forum, I would not rule out

the later.

[kevin_kolosky]

Mr. Feldman

 

<p>

 

I do not woryy about clients one bit as I have as many as I can take,

and as I noted above, most of them I do not charge money but rather

work for them on a pro bono basis. I have probably given away more

than $150,000 or more in free legal work in the past four years.

 

<p>

 

Moreover, I am a very generous person. Ask Ms. Waak and quite a rew

others whom I have loaned books and tapes without even knowing them

or sometimes meeting them. Ask 20 or so people whom are

photographers today because I helped them.

 

<p>

 

Before I became an attorney I was a CPA. I have been a wedding

photographer for 30 years.

 

<p>

 

From your note, I suspect you do not even understand what I have been

talking about. But rather than stoop to your level I will just wish

you well and hope that you do well in the future. Take care.

 

<p>

 

Kevin

[michael_feldman1]

Kevin, One of the things I don't understand is why you denied in

response to Jennifer that you purchase gray market goods, when in

Photo.net on February 03, 2002; 08:01 P.M. Eastern you said:

 

<p>

 

"by gray market I assume you mean lenses that carry the Hasselblad

International warranty rather than the Hasselblad USA warranty. I own

such a 50 mm cfi lens. It is super."

www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=001vxd

 

<p>

 

Your personal generosity is very impressive, but I don't understand

what it has to do with whether one should purchase gray market vs.

authorized imported goods.

[kevin_kolosky]

Mr. Feldman

 

<p>

 

If you would look up the page a bit you would see that I am not

trying to deny anything. I said "all except for one or two that were

purchased in this country", thereby admittig that I have purchased

what could be called a gray market good, just as I have in the past

ordered film from New York, and purchased items on Ebay. All I am

trying to do is make the point that I believe it is better to

purchase items in this country if possible. My main argument is no

different than General Motors asking you to buy a Cheverolet, or GM's

Union asking you to buy a Cheverolet. My second argument, if you

will reread what I have written, is that it is fine if you buy your

stuff elsewhere, but if you do, then don't complain later when you

can't get it locally. My third argument is that if you don't want

someone telling you that your not worth what you earn, then don't

tell other people they are not worth what they earn. That is all I

am saying. Kevin

[jonathan brewer]

Why don't we just lay this to rest, with the fact that

everybodies just trying the do the best they can and get the best deal

they can find, which doesn't have anything to do with being

UnAmercian.

 

<p>

 

I firmly beleive that after losing enough business because of

their pricing folks around here will simply adjust prices, they aren't

going to go hungry, they've made plenty. The 'Boss Hoggs' are simply

going to have to admit it's a new game now with e-bay and the

internet.

 

<p>

 

I firmly believe that more attractive pricing will lead to more

sales not less, more jobs not less, and to more sales here and not

Robert White but with your mind set you are refusing to see that.

You have the right to your position and that's that.

[jonathan brewer]

A dealer has a lens that is 'marked up' $1000 over what RW sell

the lens for, so someone buys the lens from RW, and not only that but

tells his buddies about the deal so they buy from RW.

 

<p>

 

The dealer here with the overpriced lens makes nothing on the lens

which doesn't sell, while RW sells five or six lenses, getting a lot

more than the $1000 the dealer here is still waiting for, that doesn't

make any sense. It just seems like the folks here have a problem

understanding this. Well I'm done, C ya later.

[kevin_kolosky]

Jonathan

 

<p>

 

Are you running the thread now? And can you prove your scenario?

 

<p>

 

Kevin

[jonathan brewer]

In an effort to give you credit, I stated that you had a right to

your position, does that sound like I'm trying to run anything?

 

<p>

 

There's no need to prove anything, Robert White sells a lot at his

reduced prices, there's no reason on earth, the folks here can't

reverse the situation by making their pricing competitive with RW,

what about that doesn't make sense to you?

 

<p>

 

Kevin.....regardless of how you would like it to be, there's no

going back, I took all of one business course in school, but I

remember they said you had to compete and be flexible. Robert White,

e-bay, and the internet are here, and here to stay, the folks here are

going to have to adjust and compete.

 

<p>

 

Even if you think I've failed to make a reasonable argument for my

position, I'm not ever going to pay $1000 more for a lens to somebody

here instead of Robert White to prove somehow that I'm an American,

I'm an American regardless of who I choose to buy from with MY MONEY.

[jonathan brewer]

BTW if there is a lens that sells here for $2500.00 with that same

lens selling for $1500.00 for Robert White, would you pay the $2500.00

on the basis that it confirms your Patriotism. I don't hear you

saying that. Would you forego searching out competitive pricing and

pay the highest prices here without question for the sake of

Partiortism? Please tell me that because it would make my night!

 

<p>

 

You pay the dealer here $1000.00 more that Robert White, are you

saying you know the dealer is going to divide up that extra $1000 and

send equal parts to schools, hospitals, and the armed services?

 

<p>

 

You're threads imply that the dealers and middlemen around here

somehow need the higher prices, the profits of which they will

automatically pass on to schools and hospitals, I don't believe that,

I wish it were true, and in some isolated cases it may be, but by my

figuring, a honest businessman doesn't set out to gouge you in the

first place.

[jason_greenberg_motamedi]

Ed,

 

<p>

 

Rather than think about the political, social and economic ramifications of

buying from one or another capitalist parasite, why don't you call or email Jeff

Taugner <badger@badgergraphic.com> at Badger. He is a nice helpful guy.

One advantage to buying from Jeff is that he has a nice return policy. Posting

back to the UK might be a pain if you aren't happy with the camera. Also, Jeff

offers, at least on the lenses, a one or two year warranty...

[jonathan brewer]

In all fairness I would mention some of the folks here in the U.S.

that I've come in contact with who are fair, honest, and service

oriented like Steve Grimes, Ries, Bostick $ Sullivan, Freestyle and

some others I can't think of right now, so Robert White isn't all by

himself when it comes to class.