ed_candland1 Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 I was wondering, is everything at Badger Grey market and how can you tell? I thought I heard someone say it was. But somethings like the 45AX I'm thinking of buying is only about $100 cheaper than normal. If it is, it would seem like it might be better to get the AII from Robert White for the same price. If I'm not getting any factory service anway or buy a non grey market. But what's to break anyway ;-)Thanks, Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audidudi Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 I can't help you re: Badger but I do know that Robert White won't ship Toyo products to a U.S. address ... or at least that's what it says on his site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed_candland1 Posted February 22, 2002 Author Share Posted February 22, 2002 hmmmm Guess that rules that idea out...I looked and couldn't find that ifo on his site. Where is it located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audidudi Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 Hmmm ... I just checked and couldn't find it, either! However, it WAS there just a few weeks ago when I wanted to order a Toyo 6x7 back from him so perhaps things have changed since then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 Mamiya America Corporation is the official exclusive USA importer of Toyo view cameras (and obviously Mamiya MF cameras). I believe that Robert White is an official importer of Toyo (and many other brands) in the EU (although possibly not an exclusive importer). Because Mamiya America Corporation is not owned by Toyo (nor I believe by Mamiya Japan), there was at one time clear US import law that protected them against gray market goods (even if the goods were imported by a authorized dealer from another country). <p> There are two problems with Mamiya America Corporation enforcing this exclusive Toyo (and Mamiya) trademark in the USA. First, if someone buys goods from Robert White in the UK, the purchaser (not Robert White) is the USA importer, and US Customs is unlikely to stop such goods in single quantities from entering the US. Since the importation of genuine goods in violation of an exclusive import license is not a criminal violation (unlike importing counterfeit goods), US Customs does not usually get involved. <p> This means that any remedies that Mamiya America Corporation could employ to enforce its exclusive import license would be done in civil courts by seeking financial compensation for their loss. But it is not very practical for Mamiya America Corporation to file such lawsuits against individual importers who buy single quantities from Robert White. <p> Second, there has been recent a Supreme Court ruling that suggest that such exclusive import licenses are not enforceable. http://www.tradelaw.com/l'anza.htm But keep in mind that court rulings are not always applicable to other situations (with lightly different circumstances), and US Customs regulations are a very, very murky area of the law. <p> However, since Toyo Japan relies on Mamiya America Corporation to market (spending their own money doing so) Toyo products in the USA, they probably want to keep their distributor relatively happy. Toyo Japan can put pressure on Robert White to not ship to the USA by threatening to have their import relationship in the EU terminated. This probably explains why the Robert White web site said (up until recently) that they would not ship to the USA. <p> But given the recent USA Supreme Court ruling, and since Toyo also wants to keep Robert White happy (they probably move quite a lot of Toyo gear), Toyo Japan has probably backed off a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 Michael....finally a clear explanation of the problem. No matter what happens, I'm not going back to paying what I used to pay when I can pay half to Robert White and still be treated like a King. <p> This is about greed, I would say support Robert White since he is the one saving us money, not just on Toyo, but on everything he sells. They need to keep us happy most of all since we're the ones buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_goldfarb Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 I just bought a Gitzo G1570M head from Robert White and came out $50 cheaper than B&H even after shipping from the UK, and that's not counting local sales tax, which I pay, since I'm local to B&H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted February 22, 2002 Share Posted February 22, 2002 The logic of this is just mindboggling, put money in their pockets, and they only reason they don't sue you for picking their gear in the first place is that it would be impractical for them to sue each and every customer who buys from Robert White instead of getting gouged here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upscan Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Michael: Thanks for your posting. We in the LFF need a lawyer for this one. Logic tells me that Mamiya's use of trademark law to prevent users from importing any of their products from other countries is really an abuse of trademark law, which was not intended for the purpose of setting up exclusive import licenses. After all, the product bearing Mamiya trademarks is manufactured by the same firm that owns Mamiya America and Mamiya Japan. In other words, by Mamiya's application of TM law, the manufacturer can have two identical trademarks, one which is owned by the manufacturer in Japan and the other by its selling branch in the US which by any other name is virtually no other than the manufacturer itself. In other words, the manufacturer claims that trademark law allows it to alone pass goods from his left to its right hand. The supreme court ruling ruled that these exclusive import practices are not enforceable. Is that all? it should have declared them illegal, after all, they have helped greedy manufacturers rip additional profits off US and Canadian users. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Just to clarify a few issues from above. In situations like Toyo where they rely on independent companies to do their marketing and distribution outside of Japan, there is usually no such thing as a �factory warranty.� The warranty is usually offered by the importer (Mamiya America Corporation, Robert White, etc.) in the specific country they import into, and is considered to be a marketing expense. The warranty coverage can be different in each country, especially since local laws may have some impact on the legal wording of the warranty terms. <p> Obviously, the "official authorized" importer (who provides warranty service in the local country) is able to purchase parts, manuals, receive training, etc. from the factory, but the warranty and non- warranty service expense is usually absorbed by the local marketing organization (importer). Depending on what the agreement is between the importer and the manufacturer, the factory may, or may not, be responsible for reimbursing the importer for defective parts within a specified timeframe. The price the importer pays the manufacturer for the original goods is somewhat determined by how much warranty liability the importer is assuming for themselves. <p> In the case of gray market goods (not Robert White, but probably Badger Graphics on some items), the importer does not purchase from the manufacturer, but usually from an official importer or retailer in another country. So it is best to simply ask about (and get in writing) the specifics of the warranty service, such as where it will be performed and how long it usually takes. Some gray market retailers simply replace the item (with a new or used one) if there is a problem, since it may be difficult or time consuming to get repaired. In these cases, you must rely on the integrity of the gray market importer to make good on the warranty. From comments I have heard, Badger Graphics is very good in this regard. <p> Some �authorized exclusive� importers such as Mamiya America Corporation may say that they do not perform any service (including non-warranty service for a fee) on equipment they do not import. That is their right to refuse such service, since part of the profit of every item they sell goes toward setting up the warranty and repair facilities in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Julio, <p> Prior to the 1998 Supreme Court case referenced above, it was definately legal to set up exclusive importing and licensing agreements in the USA. Many �official� importers collected civil damages against gray market importers (usually not individuals). But there was one major condition that had to be met to enforce the trademark: the exclusive USA importer cannot be owned (directly or indirectly) by the manufacturer. Therefore, Mamiya America Corporation could (prior to 1998) enforce its exclusive trademark license, since it is not owned by the manufacturer (despite its name), and it filled for and received the trademark for these products in the USA. <p> The justification for this has been that companies like Mamiya America Corporation pay for all the marketing costs in the USA (magazine ads, trade show representation, repair service, stocking parts, etc.). They are in effect paying the manufacturer (by bearing the cost of USA advertising and marketing themselves) for this exclusive right to import, and they would suffer harm if the manufacturer allowed gray market imports into the USA. The gray market goods are usually purchased from countries that have no local advertising and marketing support costs. <p> However, in the case of NikonUSA and CanonUSA (who are owned or controlled by their Japanese parent companies) there has been no legal restriction (at least not for quite a few years) to gray market imports since the importer (same company as the manufacturer) was not harmed regardless of who sold the goods to the consumer (the importer and the manufacturer are really one and the same). That is why you see B&H Photo sell gray market goods from Nikon and Canon (along with the official USA goods), but they do not usually sell gray market goods when the official USA importer is independent of the manufacturer. <p> It is important to note that, the 1998 Supreme Court case notwithstanding (the facts of every case are not identical), Mamiya America Corporation still claims that their exclusive trademarks are valid in the USA. Whether they could prevail in court is open to debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin_kolosky Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Robert White doesn't pay taxes in this country to keep your kids in school, your roads free from potholes, your water clean, your navy and army and airforece staffed, etc. etc. etc. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xx Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 oh my god! well I guess we better string that worthless scum up on a tree! god knows we live on this planet all by ourselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan brewer Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Quit your Bogus flagwaving, patriotism and loyalty work BOTH WAYS!! Where's the loyalty of the distributers and vendors around here to us, the people that keep them in business? <p> Explain to me how Robert White can charge as much as half of what they charge around here for some gear and still stay in business? What in the hell are you talking about? The countries not going down the tubes if we quite padding the bank accounts of some folks around here! <p> I had the carpet in my house replaced last year, when I was estimates done, I two people come over to give me an estimate, one drove an old '78 Mercedes SL, and one drove an $80,000 BMW. The quality of the carpet, the amount of work each was willing to do, the honesty vs the greed of these two was evident down the line. <p> One offered me a good quality carpet, a good installation, and was satisfied with a small but comfortable profit, and one just wanted to throw any old piece of shit into my house. He wasn't thinking about schools, hospitals, or the Army, just greed, like the folks you're trying to defend. <p> Paying out good hard earned money to feed greed isn't Patriotic, isn't american, it's dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_atherton2 Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 "Robert White doesn't pay taxes in this country to keep your kids in school, your roads free from potholes, your water clean, your navy and army and airforece staffed, etc. etc. etc. Kevin" <p> LOL - and your point is...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn_kroeger Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Hmmmm... Robert White does pay taxes in Britain so that British kids can go to school, grow up to be British soldiers, and be our staunchest allies, so paying a smaller amount for goods there does that and leaves me money to spend locally on other things than padding greedy distributors pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn_kroeger Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 And by the way, the taxes I pay around here don't seem to do doodly squat for eliminating potholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upscan Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Michael: you have provided learned opinion on grey goods which answers and clarifies issues of law and lay logic. Great to see that the law makes sense. Your posting is valuable reference material which goes into my computer to stay. Many thanks.Glen: Potholes, really, in the sunny south? what excuse for them without the deep frosts that make ours in Canada? Get Mamiya America to create a pothole fund with their pickpocket money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin_kolosky Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 My Point is that your local distributor contributes to your government, and hires people that need jobs, and pays for their hospitalization insurance, etc. etc. etc. Yes, you can make the argument that all that is well and fine but I shouldn't have to pay for it. The only trouble is that one could make the argument that we should not support your employer or your business for the very same reason and you would be out of a job and not paying the taxes we need, etc. etc. etc. In my 30 years of photography I cannot believe how many people I have had personally bitch to me about how expensive photography equipment was and how they were getting ripped off. A few had legitimate complaints (those on fixed incomes) but the majority either smoked, or drank, had expensive SUVs, belonged to country clubs, went out to eat alot, had snowmobiles, motorcycles, etc. etc. etc. I am sure that my income is considerably less than almost everyone else who is reading this, yet I have found a way to own a hasselblad system, full set of lights, meters, light stands, and a sinar 8 x 10 with their shutter, etc. And I purchased all of it save for a lens or two in this country. Thats my point. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Keep in mind than when purchasing from Robert White, USA customers are avoiding the 17.5% VAT (value added tax) that everyone else in the EU must pay. I imagine that the average EU resident is not happy about that. <p> But the real issue at hand is the idea of the �distributor.� The existing 3-tier supply chain model that some businesses currently use (manufacturer/distributor/retailer) is an anachronism in the age of the Internet. The Robert White model (manufacturer/retailer) eliminates the middleman and significantly contributes to the productivity of the economy. These productivity gains are measured by the US Federal Government and are frequently mentioned by Alan Greenspan (Chairman of the Federal Reserve) as the primary factor for the economic prosperity of the past decade. The use of middlemen in the supply chain adds zero to productivity measurements. <p> Bob Solomon of HP Marketing (USA distributor of Rodenstock, Heliopan, Wista, Linhoff, and others) is a sometimes contributor to this forum. In response to questions about products that HP Marketing distributes, he often asks that we send him an email, and he will mail us a brochure. I once asked him why HP (or the manufacturer) does not convert the all the (very expensive full color glossy) brochures to PDF files (or other digital format) and put them on the Internet. His response was less than satisfactory, which is not surprising since this would probably put him out of a job. <p> In a free country, Mamiya America Corporation, HP Marketing, and the manufacturers they represent can distribute their products however they please (within the law), but don�t expect me to pay for their inefficiencies. Companies that cannot exploit technology and eliminate (or significantly reduce) costs in the supply chain (e.g., middlemen) will eventually end up in the ash heap of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin_kolosky Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Michael <p> I disagree in the respect that without these importers you would not have individual camera shops handling warranty work. there is no such thing as a free lunch. That work is paid for through your importer. Buy from Robert White, or buy from others. Thats fine. But when the thing breaks see what happens. Or when you need an obscure part just run down to your local camera store and see if he/she has it in stock. <p> Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed_candland1 Posted February 24, 2002 Author Share Posted February 24, 2002 Thanks for all the input...Guess grey market is a topic everyone feels strongly about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_feldman1 Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Kevin, <p> I am not sure I understand your first sentence, but I think I get the gist of what you are saying. However, Robert White is an official authorized importer of the goods they sell. They are also the retailer. They also handle warranty service. Marketing of individual brands is done via the Internet (including recommendations of equipment made in this forum). This eliminates the middleman. The fact that they are in the UK is irrelevant to this discussion. <p> I have found it much more convenient, and much more productive, to do business on the Internet with specialists and companies that have virtually unlimited inventories. The local shop can rarely afford to stock every item or part, and the time and cost of traveling around town is not trivial. <p> Eliminating the middleman (distributor) is not limited to import situations. In a free society, the consumer chooses whether they want superior service and support, or whether they want lower prices. Invariably consumers want lower prices, but obviously there will always be some exceptions. The companies that prosper in the 21st century will figure out a way to provide both excellent service and low prices. <p> There are companies such as Amazon.com that buy directly from manufacturers (eliminating the distributor) and have outstanding customer support. From everything I have heard, Robert White, B&H Photo, Badger Graphics, and a few others fall into that same category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik4 Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 This thread seems to make RW out to be some kind of a knight in shining armour. The fact is: RW isn't. RW is simply capitalising on the recalcitrance of American distributors to price their equipment in line with international pricing. The more recalcitrant they are, the more RW gains as his prices look low in comparison. The funny thing is they are really helping to make RW rich by being intransigent. RW did the right thing by jumping in on e-commerce early and had the wits about him to offer good service to boot. He doesn't have to lift a finger as Americans do not even try to drive a bargain. <p> Americans get gouged, RW wins by not even trying. www.teamphoto.co.uk also has similar 'very good' prices and service but hardly anybody mentions them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn_kroeger Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Levity about potholes aside, I am bothered by one aspect of this problem. Price differentials maintained by many US distributors are killing local camera stores in most US cities. Large stores in NYC, LA and other centers of extensive professional photography may survive, but even in a large city like Houston, there isn't much left. <p> I would LOVE to buy products from my local dealer. I do buy many things there, and gladly pay a premium to do so. I could save 10% or more, plus our 8.5% tax by buying film by mail. But I will spend that money to keep them going. I would also buy LF equipment there, if they could come within 10-20% of prices from Badger or RW. But they cannot, because of the pricing structure of many US distributors or US subsidiaries of the manufacturers. <p> The problem is exacerbated in the US by the inability to enact a uniform sales tax structure. This is hurting many local businesses and tax bases, and really must be solved soon. <p> So I am willing to pay a resonable premium to support both my local dealer and US distribution. What is reasonable. Clearly I would pay 10% more, probably as much as 20%. But the current premiums are 50-75-100% in many cases. Market economics says such price differentials CANNOT be maintained. The internet has opened a closed market. And the US distributors cannot bury their heads in the sand and try to protect their former ways. <p> Clearly this is doable. Check gray market Canon vs US Canon at B&H. The difference is minimal, even with a very large advertising budget from Canon USA. Maybe they bury losses in copier sales... but Nikon differentials aren't large for most products either. <p> Some of that is volume. Maybe we don't need advertising for LF equipment. Has anybody here bought a lens or camera based on advertising? Anybody seen an Ebony Camera ad lately. My point is that the business model of many US LF distributors is in trouble, and the quicker that changes, the better for everybody, me, the distributor, my local dealer, and the potholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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