Arca or Sinar?

[john_robertson5]

I was interested in the question on Arca Swiss cameras. I am trying to make up my mind whether to go for a very basic Arca Swiss which a friend wants me to buy or whether to go for a much more expensive Sinar P2, both quite old. Any views please?

[garry_edwards]

Opinions are divided between whether it's the lens on the front of

the camera or the photographer behind it which makes the difference.

The 'box' which the lens is attached to makes very little difference

in my view.

Most of our work is studio still life, with some architectural. I

have had an old (very) basic Arca Swiss for a long time and know it

thoroughly. My business partner has a Sinar P2 and I use this too.

Both turn out the same results but are very different to use. The

Arca swings & tilts from the base, which means that you need to re-

focus quite dramatically each time you alter one of these movements.

The Sinar moves from the lens axis, which is much quicker and easier.

If you want to calculate swings/tilts with the Arca (using the hing

rule) you need to use a protractor, with the Sinar the movements are

both geared and marked, so making life easier.

The Sinar is also much better engineered and far more rigid. If you

are photographing very similar products using the Sinar you just need

to change the product and the camera settings will be the same. With

the Arca, I have found to my cost that it's a good idea to shoot

another polaroid to make sure that the camera is still as originally

set.

The Sinar is a much more expensive, and expensive-looking tool and so

is more impressive to clients but if this 'bullshit factor' is not

important your decision should be based on your personal preferences,

or on how much money you will have left after buying the Sinar.

Personally I would prefer to buy the Arca and spend the saving on

film!My views are those of a commercial photographer and are based on

my own experiences of these 2 cameras. If you are doing landscapes,

which I know nothing about, they may not be relevant. Hope this helps

a bit.

[urs_bernhard]

Hi John,

There is no doubt: the ARCA SWISS cameras are the better cameras. The actual M-Line or F-Line models are far better and more intelligently

designetd than the SINAR; and astronomically far better crafted. Above all ARCAs are lighter and more stable (in the days of the very old Sinar

Norma it was different,but this days are long time passed). Because of the very loud and noisy PR campaigns SINAR always counted on, the

Sinars are a bit more spread in the LF market ( and as a sticky rumour goes in Switzerland also quite at the end of economical wealth).

I'm working since years with an 8x10 M-Line with a great pleasure. But the good picture is made by the guy behind the camera.

PS: I'm Swiss, but having no further connections to either brand then the once made decision.

Regard,

Urs

[simon2]

John, try this:

 

<p>

 

Ask 20 Arca owners and 20 Sinar owners to fill in the blank:

 

<p>

 

"There is no doubt: _________ are the better cameras."

 

<p>

 

My guess is that every owner will vote for what he or she uses; when

one uses $4000-6000 cameras one doesn't put up very long with an

inferior product (and Urs, with all due respect to your opinion, it's

a trifle insulting to professionals who have used Sinar for decades to

suggest that they do so simply because of "Sinar's loud and noisy PR

campaigns").

 

<p>

 

John, assume that the build quality for the two cameras is equal; both

are world renowned for thoughtful engineering and design innovations

(for instance, Sinar's angle calculator is to me extremely valuable

when working in a hurry). Judge your particular choice based on the

condition of the two cameras you have access to, the price, and your

personal needs (e.g., if it's a lightweight Arca it's probably more

portable than the P2). Which model Arca is it? Is one cheaper option

cheaper than the other?

 

<p>

 

Other than that, no one in this forum will be able to do much more

than tell you what works for THEM.

 

<p>

 

zxzx

[simon2]

. . . and whether Arca or Sinar prevails in your survey will depend

not on objective truth or even widespread wisdom but on how many users

of either system are monitoring this forum today. Both brands, in a

word, are generally VERY highly regarded.

 

<p>

 

zxzxzxzxzxzxzxzx

[glenn_kroeger]

I've owned and used both, and agree that your answer will depend on

who answers. You need to find which works better for you! If I were

working in a studio setting it would be a toss-up between a Sinar P2

and an Arca Monolith line. But I do field work, and the Arca F-line

is much lighter and packs much more compactly, so for me, it is the

best choice. I tried a Sinar F series camera, and it did not seem

like either a good field or good studio choice.

[david_kirk1]

Here is a simple solution - Find a store like KJP or Calumet and rent

each camera for atleast a week each. At the end of the rental period

you will have formed your own opinion as to which marque is most

useful to yourself.

[simon2]

FWIW, Calumet doesn't rent either brand, although Helix in Chicago and

several shops in New York rent both.

 

<p>

 

I'm guessing, though, that renting two full view camera systems for a

week or more will rival the purchase cost of a "quite old," "very

basic" Arca Swiss. . . .

 

<p>

 

zxzxzxzx

[ellis_vener_photography]

There is a real diference between the older Arca Swiss cameras and the current Arca Swiss F-line and Monolith camera. Sinar P2 cameras are excellent, but they

are primarily machines for the studio (as is the Arca Swiss Monolith camera). I think an apples to apples comparison in terms of handling characteristics is the

Sinar C and the Arca Swiss F-line. I used to own a Sinar C and eventually replaced it with an Arca Swiss F-line as it was more compatable with doing field

work yet retained theexacting precision I require for studio workI really loved my Sinar C but it was too heavy to constantly lug around and it was wearing

out.

Which brings up another point: the amount of wear the cameras have experienced. A Sinar P2 that has seen a lot of use may require a fairly expensive

overhaul. It is a precision inmstrument that may require "tuning". But so can an Arca Swiss or any other camera for that matter.

My favorite points about the Sinar C and P2: the built-in depth of field, Scheimpflug calculator. This can help you find the optimum f-stop (i.e the widest f-

stop) very quickly for complex studio work; and the vast amount of used accessories availible.

My favorite points about the Arca Swiss F-line: how it handles, having rise in the focal plane (no need to refocus if using front or rear rise)

My favorite things about the Sinar P2 and C and the Arca Swiss F-line; the precision and that all threeare yaw-free design.

From unhappy experiences, I agree with Glenn that the Sinar F series is nowhere near the camera that the Arca Swiss F-line is even though the two are similar

in weight.

[castelberg_tom]

John - don't listen to hard to Urs Bernhard. As I know here from

Switzerland, he works for Arca Swiss. So his economical interests

here are obvious. I tested both: Sinar and Arca Swiss. And I've found

that Sinar is better in every way. Other might think differently.

Arca Swiss is a good camera but Sinar is a real Swiss precision

instrument. I guess that everybody who knows both brands will agree.

You can be just as happy with both products. It's a joke however that

Sinar would be in a bad economical condition, as Urs wants to make us

believe.

[masayoshi_hayashi]

I used a Sinar p2 and use Arca F-line 4x5 Classic now. My main reason

for the switch was the

size and weight of p2 as it was not intended to be a field camera.

I'll put some likes and dislikes

for both cameras.<p>

p2 likes<br>

As mentioned above (fast & quick). Also handles short focal length

lenses better than Arca

F-lines in terms of the flexibility or easiness of bellows

movements.<br>

p2 dislikes<br>

The tubular locks for rapid focusing do not lock standards

consistently (this affects

composition), although if the lock tension is maintained regularly at

the factory, this minimizes

the problem but can be still inconsistent.<br>

p2 likes/dislikes depending on a person<br>

Sinars has rules you follow. Here is <a

href="http://www.sinarbron.com/123.htm">an

example</a>. Basically, if you want to tilt/swing and don't want to

distort the image, you have

to tilt/swing first. This is accomplished as follows: Set the desired

plane of focus at the

<b>rear</b> standard, read the angle, transfer the angle to the

<b>front</b> standard, and

refocus as necessary at <b>rear</b>. Then you compose the image as you

wish by shifting and

raising/falling the <b>rear</b> standard. You have to follow this

order, which makes some

people hate/love Sinars, some people hate it first then start to love,

and some others love it first

then hate.... Why you have to follow that rule? Because the camera is

designed to function that

way; the tilt and swing mechanisms are above rise/fall and shift

movements.

<p>

F-line classic likes<br>

User friendly, meaning you can start any movement in any order as

compared to Sinar. This

factor makes the camera "intuitive". The reason is tilt and swing

mechanisms are below shift

and rise/fall mechanisms so that you can still raise and shift the

front standard after you tilt to

recompose, yet the plane of focus you set stays the same for example.

There are some

occasions when you have to raise the front standard to recompose

rather than usually using

rear standard after you tilt, for example, if you run out of the image

circle while you're

composing the image using the rear shift and rise/fall, etc.<br>

F-line classic dislikes<br>

shift and rise/fall mechanisms are rough and abrupt. The new F-line

Metric cameras with

self-supported geared shift and rise are basically improved versions

of F-line Classic. So I

suggest you to buy a Metric rather than Classic if you're going for

Arca and field work.<br>

F-line classic likes/dislikes depending on person<br>

Obviously you can't do Sinar way with Arca F-line cameras. So you have

to do traditional try

and error iterating method to set the desired plane of focus. But this

teaches you to appreciate

Scheimpflug and hinge rules by the sense of accomplishment with your

effort and sweat....

whatever.... (i.e. slower than Sinars to set a plane of focus and

DOF). For Arca DOF solution,

there was a gizmo called Brain Box. But it was discontinued (they

probably come up with a

new Brain Box sometime in future). I need a brain....

<p>

To summarize, I think Sinars are ruled (order) but faster and Arca

F-lines are unruled (free)

but slower. You can make your Sinar a second nature to you so that you

no longer feel ruled

and so can you for Arca so that you can make it quicker by practice.

[customer_support]

Dear Mister Castelberg

 

<p>

 

("John - don't listen to hard to Urs Bernhard. As I know here from Switzerland, he works for Arca Swiss.")

 

<p>

 

Sorry Tom, you do not know much.

Mister Bernhard is NOT working for ARCA-SWISS. Never did he.

But, we're proud to have satisfied Customers.

 

<p>

 

Reading your comments (biased or not), I wonder about your intentions.

 

<p>

 

 

Regards

 

<p>

 

ARCA-SWISS

A. Koch

[neil_poulsen1]

A couple of comments . . .

 

<p>

 

Those wanting to use very long lenses would benefit from Arca's 700mm

bellows. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it appears that the longest

bellows available for the Sinar (4x5) is 45cm. (Or so.)

 

<p>

 

Also, I see no insult implied in Urs' comments regarding marketing.

He commented that Sinar has relied on marketing to extend their

market. This is quite different from suggesting that photographers

have purchased Sinar cameras only because of Sinar's marketing. To be

realistic, heavy marketing can sway a lot of people.

[ellis_vener_photography]

As someone who was VERY SATISFIED Sinar user and who now uses an Arca Swiss F line, all I can say to Tom Castleberg comments is he doesn't know

what he is talking about when he says that "Sinar is better in every way." What is intersting is that we are comparing a camera that costs around US$2300

(the Arca Swiss F-line) to a camera that costs around US$5500 (The P2). The Sinar F2 camera is the closest camera to the A/S F-line and isn't even in the

same league, much less the same ball park as far as quality or ease of operation as the classic F-line camera, much less the F-Metric or the F-metric with the

even more precise Orbix tilt mechanism.

[mark_munro]

I too am also a very satisfied Arca Swiss F-line user, albeit for only

6 months, and I have a few comments to contribute. Firstly, I'm an

architectural/annual report photographer and the Arca was head and

shoulders above the Sinar and other brands as far as a compact,

quick-to-set-up-and-use, simple camera - something which I found very

important, as in the real world, not everyone has the luxury of

setting up the camera and waiting for an hour or so for the "magic

light". Often I have to work FAST and the Arca was the ONLY camera I

tested that I could fold up and pack/unpack with the bellows and short

rail attached to the camera. I can open the camera case and have the

camera ready to focus within 60 seconds! Sure, you can set up quickly

with a field camera, but you don't get the use of a 47mm or 58mm XL

with 5cm front rise with a field camera, either!! The only problem I

DO have is with the Arca Swiss company (take note Mr. Arca Swiss

person...) The Arca importer here in Australia has been waiting for 5

months for some accessories for me, fortunately they have let me

borrow the bits I am waiting for out of their hire kit, so I am using

the gear I need, but I'm sure that some dealers elsewhere would not be

so kind.....time to get a wriggle on, Mr. Arca Swiss. As others have

mentioned, its really personal preference - if I was a studio

photographer, I would probably have bought a Sinar for its fine-geared

focusing, but for the sort of work I do, the arca swiss F-line is

[daniel_taylor1]

reading this thread, my Linhof Technikardan kept nudging me to put in

a good word. lens left on, it comes out of the pack, setup and ready

for light in less than 60 seconds (if desired). I realize it isn't

for everyone, but I am very impressed and recommend it highly.

 

<p>

 

"there, I did it. now get back on your tripod and give it a rest."

[david_williams2]

Sorry Folks!...I know this is'nt part of the heated debate, but since

I'm looking at getting a 4 X 5 I wanted to know what you people

thought of the TOYO VX125B system compared to the ARCA and SINAR for

mostly landscape, with some architectural and some studio work.

Thanks!

[larry_huppert1]

I can't comment on the Sinar cameras as I have very little experience

with them. I've been using an Arca Swiss Metric for about a year

now, and I'm very satisfied. Previous to using the A-S, I was using

a field camera and always felt like I was in battle with the camera

to accomplish what I intended. The A-S is so smooth and easy to use

that I rarely think about the camera anymore. I'm now more focused

on the actual photograph.