table top photography with a 4X5

[john5]

I have a question obviously. When using a 4X5 for table top as I remember if the film has a tendency to pop or bow. Does anyone know if a 6x9 120 roll film holder {Linhof Super Rollex} will do the same thing?

Can one shoot parralel to the table top with the 6X9 back?

I plan to shoot wide open so stopping down isn't really an option.

How far past a 90deg angle to the table can I go with out worring about 4X5 film bowing? 100deg? 120? 140?

Thanks for answers in advance and as always please pardon any spelling mistakes.

[jim_galli1]

This is the common sense answer because I don't specialize in

tabletop, but I would think at the apertures you'll be using to get

your depth of field for those kinds of shots that even a 1mm bow would

be moot. At f64 if I recall you can get an "acceptable?" circle of

confusion while compensating for about 22mm of focus offset. That's a

tradeoff you'll probably have to live with anyway so that 1mm bow will

fall in there somewhere in the middle.

[ellis_vener_photography]

I shoot a fair amount of table top and just haven't had the

problems you describe. Frankly it sounds like you have some

bad film holders. You might also try using either KodaK

Readyloads or Fuji Quickloads, the design of these films

assures that the film is pulled flatter than film that is just being

held along the edges.

I just shot some copy work with Quickload Fuji Astia in a Fuji QL

holder where the camera was pointing straightdown. Because I

was polarizing the camera and the lights andwas using an 82A

filter I had to shoot at �/16.7 (using strobes). The lens was a

210mm �/5.6 W-Nikkor. The subject was recorded absolutely

sharp from edge to edge on the film.

 

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No standard view camera lens (as far as I know) is designed to

be at it's best performance when wide open. And the

performance problem is magnified when you use roll film as

what is considered "acceptably sharp" for 4x5 is less stringent

than what is considered "acceptably sharp" for roll film.

[dk_thompson]

I was also just sitting here thinking that I've never had that problem

as well. I work in an in-house studio in a history museum and have to

do tons of copywork using a 4x5 camera. Even with a 150 G Claron

stopped down one stop (usually we shoot around 22-32) we get tack

sharp chromes/negs on our copystand. We also do quite a bit shooting

from directly overhead/to nearly overhead views when shooting large

textiles from places like cameras clamped to hydraulic lifts and even

the second floor railing of our building (shooting straight down on a

huge 22' long flag...)and I can't recall any buckling problems with

the film. We use modern holders, though. View Camera magazine had an

issue several years ago where they reviewed holders, you may want to

check that out. Also, I guess humidity might have something to do with

your situation as well. I would think that your problems may actually

get worse with a roll film holder, over a sheet film holder, unless

you had a vacuum back or something like that. Is there some reason why

you're shooting wide open anyways? I've only done this when I've

absolutely had to, like doing an extrememly long exposure on the

copystand where I didn't think I could avoid any vibrations otherwise.

You know, like the freight elevator shaking the floor during a 2 min.

exposure. Even then, I'd only go to one stop down.

[ken_burns1]

From your explanation am I correct in saying that you have the camera

pointed straight down? In such a situation I have had a problem of

the film bowing or drooping only very rarely. Since I seldom have

the problem, I have always concluded that gravity was not the cause

of the problem. Though I have never been able to draw a definite

conclusion, I have attempted to at least theorize the cause. I have

theorized that humidity might have been involved in some way. Since

I use tugsten lights that are very hot, I have always theorized that

the heat build-up was also a factor. Humidity and heat together

could conceivably be the culprits. However, the problem has been

encoutered so rarely that I can only theorize.

[dk_thompson]

Yeah, you know, after I wrote my response I thought about it for

awhile, and while this has not happened to me on the job, I have seen

some old copy negs that may have exhibited some bowing. I'm talking

about negs that are 40 to 50 years old, long before my time...but most

likely shot on Speed Graphics with either pack film or old Graflex

holders. Usually you'll see an uneven edge along the short sides of

the film. It's hard to explain, but if there's a full frame image of

say a newspaper, you'd see this definitely not straight edge, like the

film was sagging in the holder. Or else, not loaded properly.

I also don't know if you are just theorizing that this may be a

problem, or whether this has actually happened to you. But we shoot

probably about a thousand sheets or more yearly on a copystand and

never have this happen. I'd have to agree with Ellis and say to check

your film holders.

[ken_burns1]

D.K.: Yeah, I have actually had this happen to me three times (that

I'm aware of)in the last 25 years. Once using a copy stand

photographing fabric swatches, once on a set in the studio, once on

location out of doors. In both situations in the studio a keg light

was located very close to camera's bellows. In the situation out of

doors, the camera sat in direct sunlight for a while after inserting

the holder and pulling the dark slide. All of the holders were

either Fidelity Elite or Lisco Regal II. In all cases, the image was

sharp toward the edges, but soft toward the middle. Having the two

ends of a sofa sharp but the middle not is a bit baffling. Other

negatives exposed in the exact same setups turned out perfect. All

I've been able to do is theorize since the problem occurs so seldom,

and usually, by the time the problem is discovered, the exact

conditions are history.

[dk_thompson]

Well, I didn't want to rule out the possibility altogether on this

guy's question. Just because it hasn't happened to us here doesn't

mean it can't happen to someone else. That's the thing about shooting

in general, Murphy will always strike when you least expect it. Some

weird thing will happen on your best shot, the cleanest sheet of film,

and it will be completely unpredictable.

On these old negs I've seen an actual out of focus area in the center,

with sort of sharp edges. And I've seen this uneven edge that I was

trying to explain. You know how you can see the hard edge of a holder

around the very edges of an exposed piece of film? Well, one or more

side edges will be bowed out. Usually these negs print okay, there's

not much we can do about it anyways because they're pretty old.

We don't use any fancy equipment or holders here. We've got an odd mix

of Fidelity and Lisco holders, pretty much the same thing I guess. Now

watch, the next time I have to shoot a huge battleflag this is going

to happen to me!

[john5]

Well thanks for the info.

This has really never happened to me and I can't seem to make it

happen with an open film holder and piece of film. I have heard that

this was a problem with large format film holders maybe they are

talking larger than 4X5. Hence the creation of adhesive backs,

pressure plate film holders, and vacuum backs. Further that stopping

down was needed to compensate for the film plane being uneven. Maybe

I should stop listening to theroists and just go out and do it.

Thanks for sharing the experience.

John

[dk_thompson]

I was digging through my old View Camera magazines last night and

couldn't quite find that issue with the film holder reviews in it.

Maybe someone else remembers it, but they did get into film flatness

and all that. I read it at the time and thought the same thing as I

did when I read your question. But, I don't know, maybe this happens

to me and I just don't realize it. That said, I wouldn't worry about

it unless it was something that happened to me every day. We have had

some odd things happen to us while shooting in regards to holders,

static discharges, weird marks from a holder gone bad, that sort of

thing. But these are usually just random things, they worry us for

awhile, but then go away. The thing to do is to just shoot alot of

film, and back up all your exposures and shots. Strength in numbers...

It could also be a thickness of the base issue. I've cut down Kodalith

in the past to 4x5 and had it be really "flexible" in a holder, but

haven't noticed any problems. Most sheet films now are on a polyester

base, which is alot heavier than acetate I think. Sorry to be so long

winded with this, but the view camera really excells with tabletop

work, you shouldn't be afraid to put it into all sorts contortions if

you have to.

But I'm still curious why you'd be shooting wide open for tabletop,

other than some sort of depth of field effect?