Get Photographer Participation

[cooltpmd]

There are a few posts today that discuss "who" is worthy of offering opinion

and critique. I'm on record as welcoming all comers. But I wanted to post what

I think is the most relevant point:

 

Do we get enough input from the expert photographers?

 

(1) There are a bunch of great photos on this site where there is no way to

tell what camera, lens, settings, or post-proccessing were used. So, other than

seeing it we learn little.

 

(2) I see a bunch of people begging for advise on getting certain results, or

advise on how the picture was taken ... without any response.

 

(3) Finally, on PN I see "lack of" critiques as more of an issue than

inappropriate critique.

 

This is great site, and I understand that there is limited motivation for an

expert to tell me all of their secrets, but ... I wish there was more input

from the knowlegable. I personally am grateful for all input.

[michaelging]

There is a way ,when you click on a photo look at the box named details. I know I try and always put what camera, lens , film and developer, I used to make the photo in my gallery, as almost all are from film. There are programs you can get that will tell you what was used to shoot a digital photo, including what camera, lens , f-stop,shutter speed,asa , and even what focal length a zoom was set at. I agree with your number 2 and 3 conclusions.

[Norma Desmond]

Thomas--

 

Great point. It does seem that many photographers who put their work up for critique are

more interested in presenting them than in discussing them. That's a shame.

[dennisgg]

I agree. I am still learning (I think photography is something that you never truly master - while there are great ones, there is always room to learn I think - not that I put myself anywhere near this category or even remotely the same league - I have a lot to learn) and would like the info on the shot as well. The lighting, composition, subject matter, etc all are learning tools, but you can (and I do) learn from technique and tools as well. I try to put my information on the photos that I post and would wish others did as well.

 

 

Dennis

[albert_richardson1]

Many questions put to PN for consideration and comment are poorly written. All too often when I would make a comment, I ask what I really know about the OP, his/her circumstances & what they were trying to do, and draw a blank.

 

"Criticize my photo." -- "Yep... It's a picture all right!" -- (Huell Howser* moment) "One of the best I believe I've ever seen!"

 

I would like to propose a forum that requires the OP to tell the story behind the picture. I call this the narrative. What makes it interesting? and What makes it worthy of sharing with others? If the OP is working on improving something specific, then let him say so. At least he would expect to get comments focused on the work and related to his efforts to create it.

 

Some people are better at this sort of thing. Asking themselves what they would expect a stranger to say and helping everyone to be helpful. But most OP are self-absorbed to a degree. They seem to simply take for granted that even if strangers are not mind readers, they can easily imagine themselves looking over the OP's shoulder at the work as it was made.

 

The answers that can be classified as right or wrong deal with matters of fact that can be tested if a person has the wherewithal and skill to do it. I can tell many wrong answers when I read them. They have the value of giving me an opportunity to think something through for myself yet again. I want to encourage everyone to make as honest and sincere an effort as possible to tell the truth to others on PN! Nevertheless, I have learned at least one thing in an effort to correct an answer I found on PN. I don't always see the point in telling everyone that this has happened. Especially days after the fact, or when many other strong opinions on the matter make it impossible to sort out what is what anyway.

 

Everything else is a matter of opinion. Judgment, if you will. There will never be an absolute answer for matters of taste and appearance. This area really does require the OP to say what he is looking for and, to the extent possible, what he will accept. This part of the OP-respondent transaction is overlooked on PN. I've had pictures deleted and reposted so an OP could get rid of the comments including mine. I've had others say that they were on vacation for Christ sake, how would they ever try the shot again? Etc., & etc. the same for everyone!

 

I like my proposal. I'll tell you the story behind the picture to give you my vision of the art and the technical details you need to talk to me about what you see. Quid pro quo!

 

* Huell Howser is a former television journalist who has reinvented himself as a commentator and maker of interesting video feature pieces on various aspects of California living. His programs air every night on PBS stations across California. He always projects a bubbly positive image about just about everything he sees. Although I can't always resist the temptation to poke a little fun at this approach (remember Candide?), I find his programs to be consistently uplifting and a pleasure to watch.

[cooltpmd]

Sounds like a great idea.

[ken munn]

I suspect many critique requesters and critique makers believe the word 'critique' is a synonym for 'compliment'.

[michael_darnton1]

The first two studios I worked in stressed that it doesn't matter how fancy you do the job, what matters is that you get the picture, and I learned a very duct-tape seat-of-the-pants method that actually worked to deliver a product.

 

Now half of the time I try to helpfully answer some technical thread, based on my 45 years in getting the job done in real-world photography some theory donkey jumps in to correct my ignorance with "the real way it's done" in the books, so I'm more reluctant now to open my mouth now about that kind of stuff.

 

As far as aesthetics, that's a more difficult problem, and hard to put someone on the road if they just don't have an eye. Often, too, the people who least get it are the most combative, so it's not much fun. I taught photography for a couple of summers, and even one-on-one, visual stuff is difficult to communicate. I learned by being enamored of Cartier-Bresson and Gene Smith, two photographers with very dynamic and strong composition, and I don't see too many modern models for that in the photo world today, except for journalists--check the linked stuff in this thread: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Oli2&unified_p=1 (that's the Some photographers don't stoop to "art." thread if the link doesn't form). A lot of current art stuff is more psychological than visual, which is fine and I like it, but it doesn't teach composition.

 

I think the best school for learning the art side is looking, not listening, and I love to browse through the woman's fashion magazines while my wife is shopping. If you don't love pictures, though, I don't think you can be a good photographer: just an interest in the technology isn't enough.

[don_e]

"I see a bunch of people begging for advise on getting certain results, or advise on how the picture was taken ... without any response."

 

The forum has again filled up with "critique" and 'help with learning' threads, and I am again totally desensitized to anyone's plight.

 

Take photos, study carefully good photos, read some books. Be serious. Quit expecting the camera to make good photos on its own. Work hard...very very hard.

 

It is the last one that may be the issue. It's hard work, photography is. Put your nose to the grindstone. Suck it up, and burn some daylight.

[cooltpmd]

Again, I fully understand that you do/have worked hard to achieve your results and have limited reason to share your discoveries with others. It just begs the question of "why participate at all" if you don't want to imart some knowledge.

 

I am an amateur who reads alot. I challenge you to find one good article/tutorial that would guide me on how to achieve a rich, painted fealing in a photo, for example. I have worn out books, google, and forums trying to get assistance ... to no avail. There are dozens of folks here that could lend a hand ... but, choose not to. The ignorant are not always slackers.

 

I have no expectations ... but, I have noticed that the goal of some may be to discourage ... rather than encourage a growing skill in photography and digital enhancement.

[don_e]

"It just begs the question of "why participate at all" if you don't want to imart some knowledge."

 

I've got nearly 2000 posts. Lots of those answer questions if I thought I knew the answer. I can't help anyone become a better photographer, though.

 

"I challenge you to find one good article/tutorial that would guide me on how to achieve a rich, painted fealing in a photo, for example. I have worn out books, google, and forums trying to get assistance ... to no avail."

 

http://www.pbase.com/magazine

 

Issue #8

 

The article by member Pam Recek "Realizing Your Vision" should get you started.

[don_e]

I'll add that too often the "begging for advise" is about Photoshop and not about photography. And the advice wanted is too often about achieving draganization, or painterly effects.

 

I would rather be nailed to a cross than draganize a photo, nor do I have the slightest interest in achieving painterly effects.

[bstinshoff]

I think those asking for critques also need to be more specific in what their asking for, as well. Don E's previous post about trying to achieve a rich painted feeling is a good example of where a photographer is seeking advise on achieving a specific end result. I think most of us who have been taking photos for some time can pretty much self critique our own work. For example, I can see when a background is too distacting or when the lighting was wrong. I don't take too many shots where I can't figure out what went wrong. However, those would be the types of shots where I might appreciate some outside imput. I suspect many of the photos that are presented for critique on this and other sites are shots the photographers are pround of and where they're looking for positive reinforcement rather than actual criticism.

[don_e]

Here's an example of how advice should be sought and given (beware, this is a film forum discussion. If you find that "luddite" and "old fashioned", don't bother)

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Oez7

 

And a follow-up thread

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00OhBH

 

So much more enjoyable for all involved than answering a "please help me" whine and posting a link to a free dragan action.

[don_e]

I can link to a number of Digital Darkroom threads similar to those above regarding editing in Photoshop. The responses are very generous. Post an image, describe what you are trying to achieve, and what you've tried, and you are almost guaranteed six guys with time on their hands will edit the image, repost it, and describe in detail what they did. And if you respond, if you post your attempts at the techniques, they'll be back with even more advice.

 

Don't 'beg'. Do some work, instead.

[mr. sullen]

"Do we get enough input from the expert photographers?" I will happy to offer any advice.

 

(1) "There are a bunch of great photos..." Thank you, I'm flattered but I don't know if telling you the settings will make much difference but if you would like to ask I will tell you.

 

(2) "I see a bunch of people begging..." Begging is not a good trait to have but can be a good tactic. Why no response? Ah, who knows?

 

(3) "...I see "lack of" critiques ..." I once said that if you were to display your photos in a live gallery and had hidden microphones the responses would be much the same as on here, most won't say anything, some will say little and little will have a lot to say. It's just the way people are.

 

"This is great site..." I am trying to refrain myself from complaining in future posts, if I have many more.

 

"...tell me all of their secrets..." There are no secrets just education and hard work.