What I hope for from D3/D300 Technology

[ShunCheung]

Jim, you are still not getting the point. Those DSLRs that have a flash sync at 1/500 sec or faster merely use a purely electronic shutter to control exposure at those high shutter speeds; there is no focal plane mechanical shutter to limit the sync speed, and an electronic shutter has some other drawbacks such as serious blooming issues. With a mechanical focal-plane shutter, the limit is 1/250 sec flash sync. That is true for the Nikon D2, D3, D200 and D300 as well as the latest $8000 Canon 1Ds Mark III.

[sandysocks]

I hope that I can eventually afford it. It has been speculated that the new two bits for Nikon fall in the highlight areas which is just where I need them.

 

I believe that the 5D was introduced at about the same price as the 3D, and is now about half that. So there is hope. Also Sony and Samsung will probably introduce innovative cameras with the same sensor as the D300 at one half the cost, so the D300 will probably come down first.

[jim_e.]

I understand what your saying Shun, but its do-able. Unless there's something about the sensor that won't allow a purely electonic shutter function, I don't see the problem other than a little extra expense. Is there a reason why Nikon can't integrate that function within the normal mechanical operation of the shutter. So if the sensor controls sync speed at 500th of a second it wouldn't be affected by the normal operation of the mechanical shutter at 250th of a second. Does that make sense? I don't see the problem in doing that.

[mark_chappell]

Another issue is that many of the earlier Nikon DSLRs (like the D70) used CCD sensors, which

may be better suited to act as electronic shutters than the CMOS sensors in the D300. But

CMOS offers its own advantages, like resistance to sensor blooming.

[jim_e.]

It would be nice to get the high ISO performance and 500th sync at the same time. I know Nikon can do it. For now I'll be happy with the D300 providing it performs better than the D200 in regards to noise.

[tonybeach]

"FP is not the same Anthony."

 

I didn't say it is the same, I said it gives you faster shutter speeds using flash at the cost of reduced GN. We're not talking about "one camera can and the other can't", we're talking about relative GN at faster exposure times. The reason this is a marginal consideration is because at closer distances it is not a limitation for FP flash sync cameras, when shooting in studio or with flash photography the exposure is completely determined by the lighting and flash sync is completely irrelevant, and the maximum shutter speed with an electronic shutter is 1/500 well it is possible to go to 1/8000 with a D3 or D300.

 

"So if the sensor controls sync speed at 500th of a second it wouldn't be affected by the normal operation of the mechanical shutter at 250th of a second. I don't see the problem in doing that."

 

The price of this approach is blooming, for which there appears to be no workaround whatsoever at this time. If I understand this correctly, an electronically controlled exposure means all the photosites are being saturated simultaneously. Therefore, if one photosite is nearly full and the one next to it is overflowing with electrons, then the excess photoelectrons start spilling into that photosite even as it is filling up with its own photons, then it in turn overflows photoelectrons to its adjacent photosites. By using a shutter curtain to cut off the exposure of adjacent photosites the flow of photons and photoelectrons is separated which allows the blooming gates time to drain off the excess photoelectrons before the adjacent photosites begin collecting photons.

[jim_e.]

I've never had a problem with blooming. My problem has always been getting shutter speeds up high enough in slow sync to get a sharp image handheld with a good balance of ambient and flash. I know any problems with providing a 1/500th sync can be resolved by Nikon's technicians. I'm willing to bet they already have. Its too good of an asset to leave off pro bodies indefinitely.

[tonybeach]

"I've never had a problem with blooming."

 

Jim, have you shot extensively with the D70? I have seen a lot of blooming with it, and this shows an example and has a good explanation of what to look for: http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Digital_Imaging/Blooming_01.htm

 

"My problem has always been getting shutter speeds up high enough in slow sync to get a sharp image handheld with a good balance of ambient and flash."

 

It has not been a problem for me:

 

http://photos.imageevent.com/tonybeach/mypicturesfolder/august2007/large/NC_AB01017.jpg

 

http://photos.imageevent.com/tonybeach/recentfavorites/large/_AWB9838.jpg

 

http://photos.imageevent.com/tonybeach/recentfavorites/large/_AWB1915.jpg

 

http://photos.imageevent.com/tonybeach/recentfavorites/large/_AWB5476.jpg

 

"I know any problems with providing a 1/500th sync can be resolved by Nikon's technicians. I'm willing to bet they already have. Its too good of an asset to leave off pro bodies indefinitely."

 

If they have, then it's not ready for prime time. I also have faith in Nikon's engineers, and respect in Canon's also; yet neither has overcome this issue yet. Suggesting as you do that it is some sort of deliberate omission by both companies seems somewhat conspiratorial.

[jim_e.]

No, I've never used the D70. I started with the D100, went to a D2X, then the D200. I've never had blooming with any of those. Nothing even close to the sample you posted.

 

I did do a little computer search on body specs and noticed that Canon and Nikon bodies with CCD sensors provide 1/500th sync. Bodies with CMOS sensors don't. What's the difference? Is there a reason you can't apply the same electronic shutter capability to a CMOS?

[heartyfisher]

Hi Jim,

 

I have a D70, Love it for its high Flash sync of 1/500, i have also been taking pictures at high flash sync of 1/8000 ! hehe I was shock when I found out I could do that! And yes there is blooming if I am not careful with the exposures. The 1/250 machanical flash sync speed limit is preety amazing if you stop to think about it.. The last I heard you needed shutters made of specially treated titanium so that it was strong enough and light enough to withstand the amazing extreme forces to excellerate it to that speed and to stop it again. and you need 2 of them one for opening and another for closing!

 

The electronic shutter is totally different. there is no physical shutter needed! (but of course there is a physical shutter in the D70 but thats another story) and thats what you have with many of the Point and Shoots and video cameras.. there is no shutter and there fore you can shoot video with it!

 

So the flash sync shutter speed has slowly rizen over the years.. I remember when it was 1/50 then wow 1/60! wow 1/90 wow! 1/125 and then 1/200 .. now its 1/250. its just the current limit in technology.. BTW the D1 has an electronic shutter.

[tonybeach]

"I did do a little computer search on body specs and noticed that Canon and Nikon bodies with CCD sensors provide 1/500th sync."

 

You shoot with a D200, and it has a CCD sensor and its flash sync is 1/250. Nikon did this to address the blooming that was a significant problem exhibited by the D70. The D70 mechanical shutter on the D70 only goes to 1/90 which necessitated the use of electronically controlled exposure and allows fa aster flash sync speed.

 

Indeed, electronically controlled exposures can easily sync faster than 1/500, but that speed was selected because it happens to be half as long as the flash duration of a Speedlight at full power. When you exceed 1/1000 of a second you begin cutting off the flash at half power, 1/2000 should cuts it off at quarter power, 1/4000 cuts it off at eighth power, and 1/8000 cuts it off at sixteenth power.

 

The difference between FP flash sync and 1/500 flash sync is 3.5 stops. If the D300 gains one stop of ISO performance, the difference will be 2.5 stops, if the D3 gains 2.5 stops it will be a 1 stop difference. The actual improvements could be more or they could be less, we will all have a pretty good idea in December.

[tom_luongo1]

>> that speed [1/500th] was selected because it happens to be half as long as the flash duration of a Speedlight at full power

 

Tony, does that mean the flash duration of a Speedlight at full-power is only 1/250? That sounds too long because then the Speedlight wouldn't give full power at the D200's top sync speed.

 

I think you meant the full-power flash duration is about 1/1000 second. 1/500 was chosen because it is twice as long.

 

To sync at 1/500 on an FX sensor, the shutter blades would have to travel over 50 mph (80kph)! (assumes leading curtain opens in 1/1000 so that frame is fully open for 1/1000 to allow for full-power strobe before trailing curtain begins to close)

 

Making the same assumptions, the curtains of the D200 only have to move at a leisurely 17 mph. (27kph)

[jim_e.]

I didn't catch a single damn fish the last two nights. I think my sync needs improvement there too.

 

The D200 can easily sync to 1/500th and above, so why didn't Nikon offer it in that body? Sorry, I just don't get that. The same way I don't understand a 12 meg sensor in a D3. I can't figure that one out either. It makes no sense unless marketing selective features sells more cameras. I'm clueless as to why a D70 or a D50 would have 1/500th sync and the D200 wouldn't.

[ShunCheung]

<I>The D200 can easily sync to 1/500th and above</I>

<P>

Jim, that is simply a false statement. The D200 uses a mechanical focal-plane shutter and based on current technology, mechanical focal-plane shutters cannot achieve a 1/500 sec flash sync.

<P>

Those low-end DSLRs that have a 1/500 sec sync use an electronic shutter rather than a traditional mechanical one, but they suffer from some bad side effects such as blooming. That problem gets worse with higher pixel density and faster flame rate.

<P>

The simpliest example is the D40 vs. D40x. Other than being 6 vs. 10MP, those two are very similar cameras. Yet at high shutter speeds, the D40 uses an electronic shutter while the D40x uses a traditional mechanical one. That is why the D40 has a 1/500 sec flash sync while the D40x is 1/200 sec. Both use CCD sensors and the D40x was introduced a few months later.

<P>

Many of us have explained this issue several times in this thread. If you are willing to read the explanations here, you wouldn't be

"clueless" about it any more.

[mark_chappell]

Nah, Shun, get with the program. It's really an evil conniving plot by all the makers of

high-end cameras. They could easily give us flash synch at 1/500 or faster, but instead of

reaping prestige and profits by out-featuring their competitors, they prefer the sadistic

pleasure they get from our painfully unrequited longing for higher flash synch speeds.

That's why they teased us with 1/500 synch on low end cameras, and then refuse to offer

it on more tempting models.

 

Plus, they're in cahoots with the battery manufacturers who sell lots more batteries

because

of the high power drain when we use the FP or high-speed synch modes on our poor

crippled

cameras.

 

It's all perfectly clear, if you brush aside a few facts.

 

Feel free to delete this if it's overly sarcastic.

[tonybeach]

For Tom:

 

"I think you meant the full-power flash duration is about 1/1000 second. 1/500 was chosen because it is twice as long."

 

My bad, thanks for clearing that up. There were also a couple of typos in that post; but there is no recourse after pressing "confirm".

 

You have done some interesting math there Tom. It would explain in part why the D3 has a flash sync of 1/250 while the D300 actually appears to have a flash sync of 1/320. Since marketing plays a part in all of this, it's ironic that Nikon originally released a spec sheet stating the the D300 only had a flash sync of 1/250 (probably didn't want anything showing up on it that was better than the D3), with a note that it also syncs at 1/320 with reduced GN (intended I believe to actually hide its capabilities vis-a-vis the D3).

[jim_e.]

Shun, listen to what I'm saying. Use intelligence, not education. What prevents the CCD in a D200 from being gated independant of the mechanical shutter? If you choose to sync at 1/500th or 1/1000th, why not allow a menu option that disables mechanical shutter function and provides CCD electronic gating when you want a higher sync speed than possible with the mechanical shutter. If you can explain to me why that can't be done then I'll shut the hell up.

[jim_e.]

BTW, Mark, I like sarcastic remarks. You do know what your talking about but your knowledge is restricted to knowing what is already known. Try thinking sometime. You never know, you may come up with an idea of your own.

[jim_e.]

Lets do a play. Mechanical shutter says "oh, he chooses 1/500th sync, I guess its your ballgame CCD." CCD says "no problem, I can handle it electronically, you'll just have to step aside and let me do my thing." Mechanical shutter says "I hope he knows about blooming" CCD says, "don't worry, he knows what to do. I don't see any exposure overload conditions." CCD adds, "I'm not new to this you know, used to do it just fine in my D70 days." Mechanical shutter says, "I know you did CCD, but now we're a team. Isn't it great?" CCD says, " yeah...I loooove you." Mechanical shutter says, "luv you too, baby."

[jim_e.]

Holy cow Anthony, your right. I just checked Nikon's tech specs and yes, it says 1/320th sync. But how can that be? Its been explained to me several times that this is just not possible with a mechanical shutter. Are they gating the CMOS? Can a mechanical shutter do that? I'm clueless. How did they do it? Any idea Mark?

[tonybeach]

Jim, Tom's math explains it. If the D300 shutter moves as fast as the D3 shutter does, and it covers less distance doing it, it can flash sync faster.

 

As for the question of "why not?" I answered that three replies back. There's undoubtedly more going on here than we laymen understand, since none of the companies making DSLRs have taken electronically controlled exposure into their higher end models.

[jim_e.]

Anthony. I don't know what to say. I'm going to leave this alone now. I'll take the 1/320th's. Thanks for posting that sync speed. It cemented my decision to get the D300. Anyway, time to hit the water and go catch a snook. Catch ya later.

[ShunCheung]

Blooming is the result of the electric charges in one pixel overflowing to the neighboring ones. That problem gets worse if the pixels are closer/denser to one another.

 

That is why Nikon can only use the electronic shutter on the early DSLRs with low pixel density. On the more recent DSLRs, the electronic shutter is restricted to the 6MP ones which actually use the same CCD: the D70/D70s, D50 and D40. 6MP seems to be the cutoff point for DX-format sensors and the 10MP D40x is back to the mechanical focal-plane shutter.

[ilkka_nissila]

The reason Nikon made a 12 MP initial body with FX size is that it is meant for fast action and a high frame rate (9fps) at e.g. 25 MP would require faster and more expensive electronics, increasing the cost of the camera and reducing the number of people that can even consider to buy the camera.