Canon 1Ds disadvantages and issues.

[tomasz_widlak1]

Hello all.

 

I will tell my story first before asking the question :-)

 

I'm a film user that moved from digital some time ago and I use DSLR very

rarely, mostly for the photographic jobs I get. I keep the cheapest DSLR that

fit the bill for me as my photography budget is limited - Canon 30D. My first

problem is that I often need to use ultra wide lenses for architectural jobs

and 1.6 crop really limits me and my second problem is that 30D body feel

really bothers me :-) The cameras I used are Canons D60, 1D, 1D M2, 1Ds M2, 5D

and now 30D. 1Ds M2 was perfect for me but I just couldn't keep $7000 camera

for occasional use so I switched to 5D. The image quality was great but feel of

the body really sucked so I sold it too, I'm sure that users of 1 series will

know what I'm talking about :-). I was using only film for all of my jobs

lately but I missed cost effectiveness and convenience of digital so I

purchased 30D. Now the actual question :-)

 

I can purchase Canon 1Ds in very good condition for $2000 and I think this

would be a good move for me but I would like to ask people who actually used

one or better yet who moved from 1Ds to 1Ds Mark 2 what are the main

differences and tradeoffs when compared with Mark 2 or even 5D. 5D is my second

option as I really need full frame but prosumer body really really bothers me

and I know I will be cursing it again :-) My budget is $2200-2300 so these are

my choices.

 

I would appreciate any view or opinion, thanks.

 

Tom

[bluphoto]

Do what I'm doing - start putting a couple of hundred bucks into the bank every month and by the time the 1Ds3 comes out the Mk2 will likely have come down far enough to meet your rising savings (over nd above the $2300 you already have waiting).

[peterlyons]

The 5D is actually a great camera, and is used by many pros. I don't think it feels "pro-

sumer", whatever that means. C'mon... it's nearly $3000!

 

You could also look at the 10-22 for your 30D. That's a highly-regarded superwide zoom for

the crop-sensor bodies.

[robert_turner]

Maybe I am missing something? I sold my 1d M2 to get a 5d and the only "feel" of the 1d

body I remember was its weight akin to a boat anchor. Granted focus and frame speed was

killer, but I can not fathom what OP has against the body "feel" of the 5d unless it is a status

thing ;-).

[andre_reinders]

I am using a 20D + Tokina 12-24mnm f/4 for Real Estate photos. I think the suggestion of a 10-22 is a good one.

[jwhite3.0]

I haven't used a 1Ds or 1Ds MKII but I have used Canon prosumer and pro series cameras. Coming from the 1D MKII to the 5D myself I think Tomasz has a valid point about the feel of the body. For him it is a real concern. However, it took me about 2 days to get over it. After using the 1D MKII I started to equate the ability of a camera with weight. The weight of the 1D MKII isn't heavy to me so the 5D was ultra-light. Nowadays I enjoy the lightweight 5D and I don't even have to speak about the image quality advantage. We're not going to convince him otherwise about the build quality.

 

Tomasz, did you try adding the battery grip to the 5D?

 

Are you willing to sacrifice image quality (5D) for build quality (1Ds)?

 

A used 1Ds for $2000 is a fair price and there are a lot of them floating out there. I see them on Craigslist all of the time. Check www.keh.com . Their used item ratings are fair so you'll get what you pay for there. Like any purchased item whether it is a new 30D or used 1Ds the best way to get a good one is to buy locally for testing or trusted site like KEH or BH Photo used dept.

[derek_stanton2]

Hi, Tomasz. How are you?

 

Have you tried/considered the battery grip for the 5D? I feel as you do, about the 'feel' of the

5D, versus the 'pro-level' series. But, the grip helps things significantly. Makes it feel a bit

more solid and substantial. It's not exactly what you're looking for, i know, but i think you

may find you'll just have to compromise with the 5D's price/image quality/full-frame

combination....

[tomasz_widlak1]

Hi Derek, it's really nice to "see" you here :-)

 

I've never thanked you for the camera you sold me, it's the best camera I've ever had and I'm really happy using it. Thank you so much :-)

 

Some of my latest images from it:

 

<IMG SRC="http://www.tomwidlak.com/jpeg/Dach_017.jpg">

 

<IMG SRC="http://www.tomwidlak.com/jpeg/IMG072.jpg">

 

As far as the camera I know that my opinion about "feel" of the 5D and 30D is very subjective but I really dislike the build, feel of the buttons, menus, sounds.............call me crazy but I know I won't be happy until the camera feels the right way in my hand, just like 1D did. This coming from someone who uses such well build cameras as Holga, Pentacon Six or Lubitel 166B sounds even weirder but what can I say, I am weird :-)

[tomasz_widlak1]

Guy - that's a good way to save but in the end it will still cost $5000 and that's way too much for camera that will be rarely used.

 

My subjective feel will differ from most of other users opinions but what can I do, I feel what I feel :-) As far as the lens, I need to use my Sigma 12-24 all the way down to 12mm sometimes.

 

Thank you very much guys, based on opinions here and other forums I decided to go the 1Ds route.

 

As a side note, lots of people talk about "film like" qualities of images from 1Ds, I can't actually wait to see that cause it would be heaven for me if it?s true as I'm much in love with film and digital images were always missing that ?film feel? for me. Well, I'll know soon enough.

 

I really appreciate the help :-)

[mike_kim]

Perhaps I can add my 2 cents worth since I've upgraded from 1Ds to 1Ds MKII. To list some of the advantages of 1Ds MKII over 1Ds in the order of importance to me 1) Higher resolution (16.7MP vs 11.1MP), 2) better LCD (230K pixels vs. 120K pixels), 3) dual memory cards and back up capabilities(CF & SD), 4) less noise in higher ISO, 5) ETTL-II, and 6) higher playback zoom (10x vs 3x).

 

I've also used 5D in the past. Although 5D's picture quality was probably equal or better than 1Ds (especially at higher ISO), the feel and handling of 5D weren't that satisfying. FYI, I have been using 1V/1D series cameras since the day they were released, so I've decided to go with 1Ds MKII.

 

Frankly, for most of casual shooters, these differences cannot or may not justify the $$$$ difference. For your budget, I think you should be fairly happy with a clean 1Ds.

 

Last June, I have taken Universal Studio's Jurassic Park-The Ride with 1D series with an 24-70mm f/2.8L. My son and I were soaked to the bones after the ride, but my camera & lens were perfectly fine. Most of riders and my friends thought I was crazy to take such expensive camera gears on a water ride, but that is what they are designed for. Hope this helps!

[colinsouthern]

Tomasz,

 

At the risk of starting a film -v- digital flame war, have you ever considered as an alternative purchasing a 1Ds2 (again) and retiring the film side of things?

 

Cheers,

 

Colin

[andrew robertson]

I would disagree that the 1D series feels 'better' than the others. Heavier and bigger, yes.

Better? Hell no. The only digital EOS that I have used that feels cheap are the plastic bodied

ones, which will deflect slightly when squeezed really hard.

[tomasz_widlak1]

Mike - thank you for your $0.02, i certainly hope that I'll be happy with 1 Ds, i just can't justify the cost of mark2.

 

Andrew - that's highly subjective subject, I speak for myself only when I say I dislike the feel of 5D. I know that people love it but i don't and that's the only opinion that counts for me.

 

Colin - I started from digital (D60) and went through all major Canon DSLR's and I can see advantages of Digital but the "feel" of the image is not one of them. After not being satysfied photographically with digital I stumbled across www.altphotos.com and when i saw what can be done with film I've switched instantly, and I'm truly happy now :-) My honest opinion is that if one has mastered post processing amazing digital images can be created, but I'm not one of them. My friend, great photographer is meeting with me this Saturday to actually teach me postprocessing in hopes to change my mind about digital and stop my crazy camera purchases so one day it may be the case that I will change my views and retire 35mm film (Voigtlander Bessa). But Hasselblad and medium format film is another story :-)

[robert_turner]

Tomasz, are you backtracking on us? Your last entry states-

<p>

"I speak for myself only when I say I dislike the feel of 5D" <p>yet your original post said-

<p> "feel of the body really sucked so I sold it too, I'm sure that users of 1 series will know

what I'm talking about"<p>

In any case, it doesn't seem like you're trolling here and count me as one wishing you well

with the 1ds.

[tomasz_widlak1]

Robert - well, I said that because I heard this opinion quite few times stated by other former 1D users in the past and even in few answers to my post on other sites:-)

 

Just to quote a few:

 

fredmiranda.com

 

"Tom, I recently sold my 5D + grip and picked up a used 1Ds myself. Like you, I don't shoot high ISO all that much. Too early to judge, but I prefer the familiarity and handling of the 1-series bodies."

 

"The 1Ds produces a fine quality image from ISO 400 and below, and shoot on the bright side of the histogram. I personally like the weight, feel and quality of a 1 series body."

 

"I would pick the 1Ds over the 5D for my kind of work any time, and I think you are in the same boat."

 

dpreview.com

 

"Since I sold the 1Ds I always missed it. And the 5D is almost as good but not the same."

 

"A few advantages that the 1Ds has for me...

1 - It is actually a lot quieter than the 5D

2 - Less vignetting with wide lenses than the 5D

3 - More accurate evaluative metering than the 5D

4 - Less prone to accidentally switching on exposure compensation

I need a two camera setup. I thought of just getting another 5D, but now I'm very glad that I got the 1Ds."

 

"I don't own a 5D but I've used a friends' a few times. It's super nice and the high ISO stuff is fantastic. But, other than ISO >500 and write speed I like the 1Ds better. I also got mine for 2,000 (CAD). "

 

I'm not trying to offend anyone, I know that 5D is a great camera and my personal view is different than most but I'm surely not that unique to be the only one with view like that :-)

[robert_turner]

You're missing the point, Tomasz. I never said that those opinions never existed, and I

certainly respect <i>"each to their own"</i>- I was merely pointing out that you were

being completely disingenuous stating you aren't speaking for others, when in fact, that

was exactly what you were doing.<p>

 

OK, enough of that, we've established you like the feel and heft of the 1d-bodies, and that

I don't miss that weight at all. As to "feel", let me ask you this- do you actually prefer the

"holding the button down"/double-push menu access of the "older" 1d bodies? I sure

don't... While I did get used to it, I thought it was cumbersome and much prefer my 5d

access. Very happy to hear Canon seems to have done away with it in the MkIII body.

[tomasz_widlak1]

Robert, I simply ment to acknowledge that I'm aware that there are others with similar view and it was nothing more than a joke, with a smile on the end :-) English is my third language and it's not the first time I was misundertood, mu use of english language is far from perfect as you can see and for that I apologize :-)

 

Coming back to cameras, I really don't care about the menu system, I can use both and it doesn't bother me either way. Don't know about others ;-)

[DickArnold]

Thomasz this conversation seems kind of pointless and a bit absurd to me. What you are talking about is ergonomics. Sometimes the ergonomics engineering on cameras is not the best. Everything has to be contained in a small space and the engineers have added so many features than I can't keep track of them. Believe me you can overcome what the ergonomics engineers design into their product. I have a lifetime in aviation as a pilot and a research executive. Believe me you generally have to conform to the airplane rather than have the airplane conform to you. In aviation you literally have to adapt or die. Having also had a one person photo business and used a hell of a lot of cameras I have found the same is true in this milieu.You won't die but you have to adapt. Human beings are very adaptable and you can train yourself to use new media. You don't necessarily have to forsake the old(film). My aviation students used complain when they couldn't properly control an airplane that it did not feel right. What I told them was that made absolutely no difference how it felt that they had to use whatever control forces necessary to place it in the required position in space. That they had to control it because they would not succeed if it controlled them. A good photographer can make good pictures with a variety of equipment like medium format, digital bodies, old cameras etc. by being instinctive and not worrying about subtleties in the feel of a piece of gear. The media does not determine the quality of a photograph. It's the operator and thousands have adapted quite well to digital. Like was said "to each his own". I just do not think swapping equipment around will get you any better results. You have traded equipment that others have used quite successfully. You don't have to adapt but it appears it has already cost you money. Whatever you do won't have that much effect on your picture output. My humble suggestion would be to pay attention to your friend and try to adapt and advance with the state of the art. I have checked out in over twenty different airplanes and had to overcome my resistance changing old habits and things that did not feel right in every one of them. The difference between you and me is that I had to. I am seventy five and old and slow and have made a full conversion from Medium Format and 35mm in the last four years including pretty precise post processing.

[david choo]

As a professional that regularly uses a 1Ds Mark II, 5D, H2D...

 

And used to shoot a 1Ds Mark I..

 

In terms of image quality... the 5D beats the Mark I in both resolution and noise control.

 

In my view, the weather durability of a camera really isn't that important as I can't

remember the last time I had a camera fail, sealed or not... in just about every weather

condition imaginable... from heavy snow storms... incredible humidity.... freezing

temperatures(ok i've had problems here... but it wasn't due to poor weather sealing)...

rain... 120 degree desert dry heat... etc etc etc...

 

Prosumer or not, if you want the better image quality, get the 5D, get the battery booster

and learn to love it, because you're doing yourself a disservice by purchasing a Mark I.

 

On another note... properly exposed... with all other factors being the same... I don't think

one can see the difference between a Mark II image and a 5D image on print.

[tomasz_widlak1]

Ok guys, let?s end this pointless debate about me being absurd and all kinds of other not so positive things for not liking the feel of 5D :-) I have 1Ds in my hands already and I will test it over the weekend. If it's as good as some of you say I will keep it, if not i will take the advice of the first poster and i will start saving for Mark2. Yes, I love the feel of it and I forgot what I've been missing. Is 5D better? YES, will it make any difference for me if I don't shoot high ISO? Not likely, will I see the difference on print? NO

 

So let's end this thread on positive note..............I'm happy and I think I got what I wanted :-) Thank you all for participating.

[robert_turner]

That sounds great, Tomasz. You are clearly talented and I've no doubt whatever device you

use to render your images will display this to your advantage. Happy shooting and enjoy the

1Ds!

[keith_lubow]

"D60, 1D, 1D M2, 1Ds M2, 5D and now 30D. 1Ds M2 was perfect for me but I just couldn't keep $7000 camera for occasional use so I switched to 5D. The image quality was great but feel of the body really sucked so I sold it too..."

 

I am curious to know how much you lost on resale by acquiring all of those cameras and then selling them off again because they were too expensive.

 

As for the Ds, as long as you can keep the ISO below 400, it is a great camera, and has the 1-series feel. However, IQ wise the 5D puts a pretty major hurt on it. Too bad you already sold it.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you ever try anything before you buy it? If not, you might want to start.

 

Keith

[tomasz_widlak1]

Keith, it's nice of you to assume that I'm stupid, maybe I make that impression, don't know :-) The only camera I lost money on was D60, around $1000. I borrowed 1D for two months, 1D M2 I got from my friend used and I sold it later for the same money, 1Ds M2 after discounts and deduction cost me $5500 from DELL and I sold it for $5800 on Ebay, 5D after discounts and rebates I purchased for $2100, sold it for $2300 two months ago. 30D used from my friend, $800, I can sell it to you for the same money, AS NEW condition. 1Ds I got now was purchased from KEH for $2029 in very nice condition and I have two weeks to try it out. I hope that answers your question :-) To put "IQ wise the 5D puts a pretty major hurt on it" and all this IQ claims into perspective I want to show you my friends website, <a href="http://www.konradjakubowski.com/">LINK</a>

, he shoots with Nikon D100 that by many is considered to be an inferior camera, Nikon D2x and few shots were done by my Bessa R3A and 5D that I lent to him. Please tell me what camera took what picture, and what images are superior in terms of IQ to others. I say this cause in real life, looking back at all my pictures I honestly believe that I could take all of them with any DSLR I owned. I know I'm gonna get strangled on public forum for saying this out loud but claims of 5D being 5% better than 1Ds or Canon being 7% better than Nikon in majority of real life situations for most of the shooters it does not matter that much, skill of a photographer using the camera and his post processing skills are 1000 times more important than miniscule impact of IQ difference between cameras. Now you can throw stones at me :-)

[tomasz_widlak1]

Thanks Robert, I will :-)

[keith_lubow]

Tomasz,

 

I agree (and I wasn't trying to say you are stupid.) When you really start seeing the difference is at high ISOs, though. That's what I was referring to. Probably 75% of what I shoot is at ISO 800 or above, or with similar rated film. The 1Ds is a great camera, but gets very nasty above 400. Even 400 is not the greatest. I would not object to having one, but unfortunately its use would be more limited than I would like due to what I shoot. You won't get strangled by me for that statement, as I feel the same way when it comes to film cameras, when high ISO noise considerations don't change depending on the body you use. With digital, however, your body can limit you a lot more than with film.

 

Keith