Ergonomics of most DSLR fundamentally flawed .. IMO.

[dg1]

The DSLR's that I'm using are the Panasonic L1, and the Olympus E-410. What's

interesting is that both cameras have been criticized, or at least noted, for

the change in hand position required to access the top of deck shutter button.

Not so much the E-410 as reviewers seem to allow this as a trade off for its

small size. But the Panasonic dmc-L1 has taken a beating on this by some

reviewers like Michael Reichman on luminous-landscape.

 

Given that, I find it odd that I love using the L1 and E-410 and find them far

more comfortable than my previous 10D, and Pentax *istDS, and Sony R1. I'm a

musician, and the 10D really bothered my right hand and wrist.. not good. I

always figured that was caused by the 10D's weight, at the time, and eventually

I went to the lighter Pentax. The Pentax helped somewhat but I found that I

tended not to go for it as my first grab and go choice, preferring instead one

of a couple digicams. The Sony R1 also has seemed awkward unless I'm shooting

from waist level.

 

Today I picked up the L1 with the pana-Leica 14mm-50mm f/2.8-3.5 OIS lens,

itself a pretty formidable piece of hardware, and bringing it to my eye I

wondered at the fact that I have no qualms whatsoever about using this hefty

camera for extended periods of time, and with no adverse effect on my hands.

 

Looking at my hand position when holding the camera to my eye, I could see that

with the shutter button located on top of the shutter speed dial, my hand and

wrist is aligned perfectly straight. This provides a stronger support for the

right side of the camera and avoids bending the wrist.

 

Later I picked up the R1, which conforms to the "pistol grip" style of most

DSLRs and it occurred to me that while this makes perfect sense if you are

shooting a pistol with the arm extended like in slow fire match shooting, it

makes NO sense when you've bent your arm vertically to get the camera up to your

eye, and thus have to bend your wrist and hand rather severely forward to keep

the camera level while retaining the "ergonomic" hand position. The pistol grip

is modeled to the hand, but only to a hand that is at the end of a horizontally

extended forearm, which if pointed forward is at about waist level. The only

way to avoid the bent wrist if the camera is at eye level, is to lift the arm

and extend it out sideways, at which point you've removed support from below.

 

The standard DSLR design feels comfortable in the hand initially, but it seems

to me it's a basically flawed design that has ignored the fact that the camera

needs to be held to the eye, not out from the body. The premise is wrong. It's

like trying to aim a pistol while holding it next to your face, not advised, but

if done requires radical and, in my case, damaging, wrist angles..unless you

don't mind elbowing the person next to you in the head.

 

I've realized that my problem with the 10D wasn't the weight afterall, it was

the design of the 10D grip that was screwing me up.

 

While my opinion goes against conventional wisdom and design practice, and

perhaps the practice of most photographers, my experience with these camera's vs

my wrist may account for some of the high regard for the handling of traditional

rangefinder cameras like the Leica M and others. And I think it shows how

personal these preferences are, as well as how conditioned by habit reviewer's

opinions can be, such as luminous-landscape, which positively railed against the

L1 shutter placement. As always YMMV.

[Matt Laur]

So, what your subject line should say, then, is "Ergonomics of Some DSLRs Not A Good Fit For Me." Out of curiosity, have you ever spent much time handling Nikon's D200/300? I personally don't like Canon's fit/feel in my hand, but don't have much time with Pentax, Oly, or Panasonic. The couple of times I've handled the Panasonic, it was a mess (again, for me). Of course, I am a large, Orangutan-like primate, with big hands. We're lucky we all have so many great options to choose from. But I think I'd disagree that "most" DSLRs are fundamentally flawed, per se.

[kajabbi]

I Graduated from Leica Ms(M5s) to the Sony R1.

Since I am Left-handed and Left-eyed, I found the R1 to be a perfect fit. The convenience of not having to change lenses is a welcome plus. A dropped Noctilux(though I luckily caught it on my foot), moved me immediately to digital from film, Since having successfully weathered the learning curve, I have not missed my 50+ years with a Leica.

Every model out there is somewhat different. If you are not willing to compromise on camera features, there is always the Leica M 8.

[don_e]

The design is not flawed, but like for you, it doesn't work for me. That's because my right thumb was broken decades ago and never set; it is not obvious unless seen alongside my left thumb. So, it is stressful and then painful to hold an electonic slr or a dslr the way they were intended. It's worse if the right thumb is used to turn wheels and dials. This is one reason why I like old manual slrs and rangefinders, and use digital p&s.

 

The minimal right grip of the E-410 makes it the top choice for me when I buy another digital camera.

[Ed_Ingold]

Your title is misleading. Except for the 10D, the cameras you describe are not main line DSLRs, rather a step up from point-and-shoot cameras. I have used Nikon SLRs from the very first "F" model, and have seen the ergonomics consistently improve with the development of the right-hand grip. On my last concert tour I had to shoot stills with one hand while cradling a video camera in my left arm. That would have been impossible with the F, or even my Leica.

 

When I hold a camera, like a D2x, my right hand fully engages the grip and my elbow is close to my body. The weight of the camera rests partly on the heel of my right hand. Most of the weight rests on the heel of my left hand (under the camera) while my fingers and thumb cradle the lens. My hands are straight at the wrist (just like with a pistol), not bent or with my elbow out like you suggest. Perhaps you are holding it like the actors on "CSI Miami" ;-)

[dg1]

"your subject line should say, then, is "Ergonomics of Some DSLRs Not A Good Fit For Me."

 

nah, I'll stick with "Ergonomics of most DSLRs fundamentally flawed..IMO". If you can parse out that big a difference in the meaning of the subject line, go for it. But certainly feel free to disagree.

 

I think I made it clear that this is MY experience.. and it really is all about me afterall :)

 

At least part of my little "essay" is in agreement with you..my experience with the L1 and other cameras demonstrates that we should take the professional camera-review pundit's opinions with some skepticism, and form our own opinions based on our own use.

 

I'm interested that other photographers are so flexible that they actually like holding cameras like those Egyptian hieroglyphic tomb drawings.

 

Ned, I'm not looking for a camera, I was more like saying I've finally found a couple cameras I like. No slight intended against the R1, it's brilliant machine and I've gotten some good work out of it.. but I use it for waist-level shooting, and in that position it is perfect (for me for me for me)..but up to the eye, it still seems as physically illogical as MOST of the DSLRs I've held.

 

I compromise all the time. How does making choices, and having a strong opinion, mean I'm not willing to compromise? Besides, the M8 certainly demands compromises too. It would certainly compromise my wallet!

[godfrey]

I have the same feelings. Of all the modern DSLRs I've used (Canon 10D, 20D, Nikon

D200, Pentax *ist DS, Pentax K10D, Olympus E-1, and Panasonic L1), the two that work

best in my hands are the L1 and the E-1.

 

The L1's body is a little short, but the upright position of the hand and vertical direction of

the shutter release press helps me balance the motion with my palm, allowing me to keep

the camera both proper horizontal and stable. I find I get sharper (from less camera

motion), more level pictures with it as a result.

 

The E-1's relatively tall hand grip shape, superbly shaped grip, and soft, smooth shutter

release do a similar job. (The E-3 is very similar, but I haven't bought one yet to really use

it extensively.)

 

I recall my old Panasonic FZ10, which also had a shutter release on the top deck, which

allowed me to keep horizons more level like the L1. I think there's a reason so many older

cameras had the shutter release positioned this way ...

 

Godfrey

[dg1]

"On my last concert tour I had to shoot stills with one hand while cradling a video camera in my left arm. That would have been impossible with the F, or even my Leica."

 

I'll be sure to get a D2x the next time I need to do this. Thanks for the tip ;)

[dg1]

"upright position of the hand and vertical direction of the shutter release press helps me balance the motion with my palm"

 

And the direction of the "pull" is aligned with a more or less straight line running along the back of the hand from the index finger through the arm. This is consistent with good trigger pull position in target shooting, where you want to exert the pressure on the trigger straight along the axis of the pistol back toward the palm.

 

As much as I compared the conventional DSLR grip to a pistol grip, now that I think about it, that is inaccurate as the shutter button is (usually) on the top of the end of the grip, and not like a trigger. It would make more sense (to me, and I believe there are some cameras like this, although not DLSRs perhaps) if the shutter button was on the front of the grip near the top where the index finger could pull it straight back toward that palm and thereby reduce movement that is off the axis created by the hand and arm.

 

Another good point of the L1 with the OIS lens is the weight of the lens itself, although not unique to the L1, as its mass provides very good dampening of vibration, another point from target pistols, that often use weighted barrels for increased stability. The lens heavy R1 is also effective in this regard.

[Ed_Ingold]

The correct way to get a smooth release is to roll your finger onto the shutter release button. All the 35mm style cameras I've used in the last 40 years have a somewhat recessed shutter release that facilitates this motion. An Hasselblad is somewhat challenging in this regard - I uses the edge of the camera as a fulcrum.

 

The handling and shutter release ergonomics of the D2x is not notably different than other modern cameras, including the Canon 10D. However, the location of other controls is superior to other models, IMO.

[Ed_Ingold]

Incidently, it is essential that your finger touch NOTHING but the trigger in pistol shooting, hence the analogy fails. I suspect the "CSI Miami" model goes deeper than I suspected :-)

[dg1]

Edward, the pistol analogy does not fail. It is the direction of the pull along the axis that I was referring to. I did quite a bit of slow fire precision air pistol target shooting in the increasingly distant past, arguably the most technical shooting, I'm well aware of what the finger should and shouldn't be touching. You are just trying to touch a nerve with your "CSI Miami" BS.. keep your fingers to yourself :) If you enjoy rolling your fingers on your Nikon, I'm happy for you.

 

BTW what is "CSI Miami" ?

[GerrySiegel]

I believe manufacturers start with lab studies with blocks of clay and to get the feel factor as best they can in tooling up. I think they do a fairly halfway decent job to make it come together. Within limits. Better than auto manufacturers for sure.)

 

The Olympus E-1 sold me on "feel factor" when I first held it years ago. My right eye came up where I wanted,and my nose was not smashed against anything. The on off switch was sensibly placed. The reach to the shutter button was fine. The thumb could reach the exposure lock well enough. The detent between shutter half press for focus had a tactile feel. Materials on the body are not slippery. I have fat fingers,some have weak ones..I could never learn to do any chords on a steel string guitar for instance.

 

Dean, good you found both an Olympus and Panasonic models that fit your hand, wrist, and shooting style.

[craig_gillette]

It really does seem to be all about you. I'm sure all of the dslr makers will take what you've said to heart and change the entire design scheme. I'll have to admit that I find very little similarity to firing a pistol and holding a dslr. I make it a practice to keep pistols well away from my face when shooting them and find the support postures for a long gun somewhat more similar.

[charles_reid]

You seem to think "ergonomics" means "whats best for ME!". Ergonomics are based around human anatomy. A pistol grip btw IS not ergonomically designed. If you look at target pistols you'll get a better idea of what the "perfect" pistol grip is. The pistol extends back over the wrists. Some pistols have had "braces" designed to go around the wrist/forearm.. that is perfect ergonomically. It braces against the bone structure and provides a solid platform. Its also huge ungainly and goofy looking so you dont see them much. Same goes for cameras. The idea design would have an arm that went under the underarm and a 45% grip under the lens to provide a sturdy shooting platform. IT too would be huge and ungainly.

 

You must also consider slr/dslr's multiple uses. They may be mounted on a tripod, a monopod, shot at 90%, shot one handed.

 

On pistols as well you'll find the modern pistols ("high capacity, double/triple stack) are VERY nonergonomic. Ergonomics makes way for function. It is also a very personal choice, I prefer long single stack pistols. many prefer squat triple stacks. In cameras i HATE canon ergonomics and find nikon acceptable UNTIL you get to the pro cameras whiich for me personally suck. One of the biggest factors in choosing hte esystem over canon and nikon was ergonomics. The canons felt like small toys in my hands. The canons just felt clunky. Obviously most of the world disagrees as canon and nikon dont seem to have any sales problems.

 

Lastly your problem is probably your grip and perhaps a need for a little exercise. It sounds like your holding your camera as if its on a platter. This little machine in front of you you hold up and look at to get pictures. If you look most slr photographers look the same when shooting... they arent paying any attention whatsoever to how they hold their camera. It has become part of them as the only thing thye're focusing on is their subject. They flip the camera this way and that without "thinking" about it.. they just know they want this scene and their body turns the camera.

[Ed_Ingold]

The technique of rolling your finger onto the shutter release is not new, and I certainly am not the originator but a dedicated practitioner. It is a good way to initiate a soft release. It is also a good way to achieve and maintain an half-press of the release to initiate auto focus and exposure, common in cameras for the last 20 years or so. The actual "push" is still straight, but in a controlled fashion that avoids "poking" the shutter (q.v., "CSI Miami") and dealing with a less than ideal mechanism (e.g., Hasselblad).

 

You can't roll your finger when target shooting because it dramatically affects the point of aim when there is recoil. But as an air pistol expert, you wouldn't know that ;-)

[dg1]

Well, ok then, judging by the seemingly overwhelming backlash against my assertion, that the commonly accepted designs perhaps are not quite "right", I'll concede only so much that this is an individual preference and applies perhaps only in my case. My apologies to those I've offended and my thanks to Panasonic and Leica for producing this camera especially for me.

 

 

And as Mr. Ingersold is obviously not only an expert firearms shooter, but also an authority on "CSI Miami" and no doubt other TV police dramas, and have studied their technique, I'll defer to your expertise in these matters. True enough, my funky modified Daisy 717 and Feinwerkbau had no recoil, and I'm happy to say neither do my cameras. ;-)

 

And thanks also to Mr. Reid and his expert ergonomics tutorial. Sorry, but, yes, good ergonomics for me, definitely means what's best "FOR ME!". And thanks for the physical therapy advice also, you are no doubt a chiropractor?

 

Happy shooting .. cameras or whatever.