TLR questions

[joe_rizzo1]

Hi, I am starting to research quite a bit on medium format but still have a few

unsolved issues I am hoping all of you could set me straight on, due to cost

issues I have come to the conclusion that my only choices are going to be a

TLR, with that said I have heard both sides of coin in reference to using a tlr

for landscape, one says it is a bad choice one says they are good, which is

fact or fiction in using one for landscape.

<P>

 

I am not worried about weight issues, slowness of operation and having to

fiddle with this or that, nor a light meter.

<BR>

Changeable lenses would be nice but not a have to thing, light meter on camera

is not necessary., I do worry about the bellows on the mamiyas though, if they

were bad or went bad then there is added expense, were these noted for the

bellows going bad.

<BR>

Would like a good viewfinder on one as I have read some are dim, good shutter

speeds also.

<P>

Brands considering are:<BR>

1- Mamiya C leaning toward c330, but open to all suggestions on mamiyas.

Mamiya m 645j

<BR>

2- Rolleicord

<BR>

3- Yashica naturally goes on the list, C, D, LM, 12, yashicamat, yashicamat LM

and EM, the 124 looks as if price is being inflated considering I could get

another model that will do just as good with out all the bells and whistles.

<BR>

4- Minolta autocord

<BR>

5- koni-omegaflex <BR>

koni-omega rapid

<BR>

6- Ricoh diacord

<BR>

7- Ikoflex

<BR>

8- Kowa 66 (read that parts and lenses may be hard to find)

<BR>

Naturally there will be varying opinions on all brands but in general I just

cannot decide.

<P>

Unsolved issues, (I am digital so just bear with me on film issues)<P>

1 - there is an issue of a red window on film advance, what role does this

play, just in preventing double exposer or what, I have heard of some putting

tape over it to prevent light from getting in.

<BR>

2- Just to make sure, color film can be used in all tlr?s correct

<BR>

3- How bad is the issue of the film winder on the yashica?s

<BR>

4- Comparing 35mm to 120, I have read there is a big difference naturally size

but in quality the two just cannot really be compared can they, the 120 will

beat the pants off of any 35mm, I have never seen the two compared visually in

hand.

[BernardMiller]

Hi, Joe--

 

I'm a regular Mamiya TLR user. I'll answer some of your questions, and let someone who's expert in the other areas take care of those I can't answer.

 

1. The red window allows you to see if you have film loaded in the camera. 120 film also has frame numbers printed on the backing paper (which prevents your film from getting exposed when you peek through the red window) which can sometimes be read through the window, so you can gauge how many shots you have left if your counter isn't working, or if your camera lacks one. The red window is normally not a problem--unless your camera can take 220 film, which has no backing paper. Later Mamiya TLRs, which could use both 120 and 220 film, have no red window in order to keep you from accidentally exposing 220 film through it. Not sure about other brands.

 

2-You are correct. All types of 120 film--BW, color neg and slide film can be used.

 

3-Don't know.

 

4-Absolutely true. Prints, particularly at larger sizes, are just incredibly more detailed and have more tonal information than those from 35 mm film.

 

I've been a long-time Mamiya TLR user--started with an ancient C3 I picked up used in a little store in Hamburg, Germany. I now use a C330f, which is a very nice camera indeed, and not so heavy (to me at least) as some would have you believe. The C220f is also a very good camera--it does not cock the shutter automatically as you wind like the 330 series does, which might actually be a good thing.

 

I like the interchangeable lenses--I have the 180, the 80 and the 65, and would love to get my hands on a 55--which is why I went with that brand. TLRs in general are a wonderfully cheap way into medium format. The Mamiya system allows you the flexibility of changing focal length, and has several useful accessory gadgets--various viewfinders, grips, the legendary paramender, etc., available.

 

But, really, a number of the models you are considering would be excellent choices as well--and, likewise, not terribly expensive in most cases.

[alvin_hear]

Here is a <a href="http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/rolleitlr.htm">Rolleiflex Guide</a> and here is a <a href="http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/tlr.htm">Ricohflex Guide</A></P>I use a Yash 124G and enjoy it greatly. In the end, personal taste and a CLA'd camera is most important.

[richard_oleson]

I don't know if any of the cameras you list actually have a red window in the back, unless you find a very early Rolleicord. The models you list have mechanical frame counting systems. The red window was the frame counter in earlier cameras: the backing paper having 12 numbers printed on it which appear in succession in the window as you wind the film.

 

Of the cameras you mention, the Konicas are rather unique beasts that don't quite compare to the others. The Mamiyas are substantially larger than the fixed-lens TLRs, but in addition to having interchangeable lenses they also focus closer, so will be worth the extra bulk if these features are useful to you. The Rolleicord is probably the most durable in construction, and the Minolta Autocord probably has the best optics. The Yashica Mats are decent cameras, not as rugged as a Rolleiflex but well designed and easier to maintain than some Rolleis. The light meter in the later Mats is probably the nicest ever put into a TLR, very convenient in use and (unlike in Rolleis) its presence doesn't turn the camera into a mechanical nightmare. The Ricoh Diacord is a very nice camera and very underappreciated.... probably because Ricoh was not a 'big name'.

 

The Mamiya 645 and Kowa 66 are SLRs, not TLRs; and the Koni-Omega is not a reflex camera at all.

[Jochen_S]

The Mamiya bellows seem to last quite a while and to me they are worth having, since they allow a macro shot with the 55mm lenses and many conventional MF cameras just suck minimum working distance wise. I hate fiddling with extension tubes for Hassy during portrait sessions for example.

 

BW shooters might love TLRs more than color folks for landscape. Have you ever focused a SLR lens behind a red filter? - That experience sells TLRs!

 

I own a pair of Mamiyas and will stick to it. I also have a rangefinder and a Pentacon with 120mm f2,8 for available light stuff.

 

MF is surely better than 35mm, but you can't compare both entirely, since there are faster lenses and less need to stop down for 35mm, leaving zooms, fast AF and motors aside.

 

Color film: What is your aim? - If you want a few small happy snaps I 'll suggest to ditch MF ASAP. I started photography that way with a Super Isolette and soon discovered that I had to pay way more for my 4x4" vacation pics than a 35mm shooter for 4x6"s. Big lab print special offers are usually targeted towards 35mm shooters only. Slides for projection look good, but do the few you'll get out of shooting MF justify rigging up a pricy projector and screen? - MF is great for homeprocessed BW. It's pure pleasure to handle those negs and you'll get decent 8x10" prints even from pushed fast film. Scanning MF might be nice too, but I can't afford a MF scanner as good as my Minolta to really benefit.

[Ed_Ingold]

Early TLRs tend to have dim viewing screens. I replaced the screen in my Rolleiflex E2 with a Beattie screen (plain with grid), and suddenly the camera became useable to my aging eyes. Replacement screens by Maxwell are supposed to be easier to focus.

 

I'm surprised that Rolleiflex is absent from your wish list. The fit, finish and ergonomics of Rolleiflex is superb, and the Planar and Xenotar lenses are among the best of any MF camera.

[john_calafut]

I haven't heard much about Mamiya bellows going bad from normal wear.

They just extend straight out and back in, without any tilts, shifts or swings that seem to put a little extra stress on large format camera bellows. Outside of abuse or mishap, they seem to last just fine. My Mamiya C330f dates from the '70's or '80's at the latest, and aside from having checked out the bellows when I bought it four years ago, I have rarely thought about it since. Jochen is right about the advantage it provides in minimum working distance.

[zachk1]

I have a Rollei that I got as a gift, I need to send it in for a CLA but otherwise it is a great camera. The screen is quite bright and the images are just great. There are several in my gallery if you want to take a look

[david_m]

Any camera can take a photo of anything e.g. landscapes. However, each shot you contemplate has a range of effects only possible with lenses of different focal lengths. Which focal length is chosen is part of the skill of being a photographer. Fixed lens cameras elminate this creative option.

[golden]

hi, i have a mamiya c330 which is a very good camera, my first medium format was a yashicamat i bought off ebay for 58.00, great starter camera, sharp lens, the only thing i didnt like was being stuck with one focal length. you can go to my gallery and see, the last 2 pictures (nantahala falls and the statue of Jesus) were taken with the yashicamat. Im selling my c330 outfit, i have 55mm lens and 180mm lens, cds prism, and waist level. the lenses are great, shutters in both are dead on. i now mostly use my m645 1000s and large format. anyone interested in the c330 email me. good luck joe which ever one you choose

[etienne_w]

Joe, <br>

welcome in the MF world :-)<p>

 

My $0.02 experience about color slides and YashicaMats:<p>

 

As others have said, you can shoot any kind of film in TLRs. I shoot exclusively color slides with a Mat 124G (seconded in the last couple of months by a Rolleiflex).<br>

MF color slides will blow your socks away, and you don't have to give big bucks for it. You can find decent MF projectors on "the-auction-site-which-shall-not-be-named", look for Kindermann/Liesegang among others. They are some with glass lens which are more difficult to find but can come cheap: I found a Liesegang Fantax with a (great) Lumagon 150/2.8 for 120 Euros here in Germany. If I had the opportunity, I'd be curious to compare it with a >$1000 Hasselblad PCP-80 !<p>

 

 

I don't know many of the TLRs you mentioned, I owned so far only a YashicaMat 124G and a Rollei. If it can be of any interest to you, the meter of my 124G is accurate enough to correctly expose slides under most conditions. It happened to me that the exposure was somewhat off in difficult conditions (but then I'd blame the photographer, not the camera :-D)<br>

AFAIK the Mat 124G costs around $100-$200 in good condition, which will not require a CLA.<p>

 

Good luck and keep us informed about your choice !<p>

 

Etienne

[mike_earussi1]

The cheapest way to get into MF is the Yashica. The best for landscapes is the Koni-Omega since it is 6x7 with excellent interchangable lenses. It is also inexpensive with a body and 90mm lens running for around $150-$200 (look for an M or 200 model with interchangable backs).

[ben_long]

If you can find a Ricohmatic 225, it's a great camera, the most advanced model of the

Diacord style, with a crank film advance. The Rikenon lens is really good, and the focussing

system, using two side thumb levers is very logical and natural feeling.<p>Also have a

Mamiya C330, which I love, especially for the close focus ability, although it is pretty heavy

and large compared to the Ricoh.<p>For next to nothing in cost you can get a Kodak Reflex

II which has a really decent, contrasty 4 element lens. Only drawback is that you have to re-

spool 120 film onto 620 spools which sounds harder than it is.

[cpj]

Now that you've had a bunch of very specific opinions, let me say you should remember

the following:

 

1. The LENS make the image, not the film size. Buy the best lens you can afford. Far and

away the Rolleiflex Planar and Xenotar lenses will outperform all other TLRs. Most of the

time you'll find them producing results similar to the Zeiss lenses on the Hasseblad.

 

2. You have the right idea in ignoring the built-in meter stuff and other extras. Just focus

on the lens--pun intended.

 

3. The Rolleicord you mentioned has excellent lenses but they don't compare wiht the five

or six element lens formulas used for the Xenotar of Planar found in the Rolleiflex. These

are "premium level, professonal quality lenses."

 

4. As alternatives to the Rolleicord, the Minolta and the Yashica have the best long term

reputations in terms of "best overall quality at that price level." each in its own class.

 

5. Look up the topic "Rolleiflex" in this Forum. There's a reason it is second only to

Hasselblad in discussion points on this BB. It clearly has the best lenses and most reliable

shutter combined with a very rugged body. (I've used them professionally as a news

photographer "on the street" in all types of weather, and I currently own five of them. (But I

have 3 Hasselblads and two Leicas and two Nikons. As I said, it all comes down to the

LENS.

 

Good luck.

[steve_levine]

The SLR's are so cheap right now, IMHO, you'd be foolish to go TLR. The SLR's are lighter and easier to use(no reversed right/left nonsense to deal with).

 

 

I always suggest the Mamiya 645 cameras in their various models. Only because I've owned and used them since the 1970's. I'm sure the Bronica or Pentax 645's are fine cameras as well.

 

 

I do know that their lenses are as sharp as the Mamiya glass. Which contrary to popular belief, are excellant quality.

 

 

If you shoot a full frame image of a human face with both MF and 35mm. Think of how many grains of silver there are across the face in each. The larger negative will have at least 3 times more than the 35mm. The more grains of silver there are , the more information that can be captured. To liken this to digital, it is like having 3X's the mega pixels.

[photography by a.f. smith]

Just want to cast my vote for the Rollieflex. Beautiful camera's.

 

Also you should be aware that not EVERY camera will be good for color. There are still plenty of VERY early Rolleiflex camera's in working condition that don't have coated lenses. You can put color through it, but you might not like the results. There are tons of websites that can help you find the date of manufacture of a camera based on serial number. As long as its a post WWII camera its a safe bet that the lens is coated.

[joe_rizzo1]

I came seeking and sure enough I am getting some great answers from users of these cameras, the mystery of that little red window is all cleared up as with some others, after seeing a lot of medium format photos on net (which does not do them true justice) but it is the only source I have, I really need to jump into this.

<p>

 

If I read right the way the lenses work on 6x6 medium format is just the opposite of the digital crop of 1.6, so a 50mm lens used on a digital would actually give you 80mm due to crop, 50mm lens in 35mm format would be the equivalent of a 80mm used in medium format.

<P>

 

I am starting to lean towards one of the mamiya C, it is a tad bit more than what I had expected to pay just starting out of the gate but offers in return more versatility while still keeping the price somewhat low, but if something comes about to reduce my camera fund then I will be leaning toward the other tlr?s, but either way what ever I wind up with that is on the list all have good quality?s, the main thing is that I will at least be able to get my feet wet into the medium format world and if I have to go with just one option on lens that some have a little foot power might give me that certain look I need for some things, then if it all works for me I can always trade for a different brand later, but the koni I forget which one now but that is the strangest looking camera I have seen so far.

<P>

 

Why I want to use color film is that some things I just want to shoot in black and white and some in color then I can always turn them black and white later possibly, but my main reason for going medium format is I need large, clear, brilliant prints/slides that digital or 35mm cannot produce without high dollar equipment so if I have to pump more money into equipment for what I use it for why not take the leap into medium format then just use the digital slr for what I cannot use the TLR for, but for me, medium format just seems to put you more into the the pic, a person can relate to the place, person, or thing in the photo so much better than 35mm, to use as an example one of many sites but this one using a bronica.

<P>

 

http://www.fotografiewimvanvelzen.nl/publication01.htm#maxwellnote

<P>

 

I do thank you all for your information and opinions you have given, now we can talk large format, well maybe I better just stick to the medium as I am sure that will keep me busy for a good while, lol.

[roseberry guitars]

Joe, I can only speak to the TLR's in your list as that's what I prefer and regularly use. I'll throw in a vote for the Minolta Autocord. One of the later models with a Rokkor lens (most if not all had this lens anyway)and Citizen shutter will be very hard to beat. They may not have the reputation of the Rollie but then they don't have the price tag either. I think the best value for your money in a basic TLR for sure.

 

One can rave all one likes about the optics of the Planar or Xenotar lenses but when the truth comes down to it there are but a few eyes in the world that could appreciate the difference between the results produced by those and a Rokkor in a side by side test. I'm not dising the Rollie and their loyal followers as they are extreamly well made (the best in your list by far) but for most of us who don't use our cameras for our everyday job, maybe they are more than what we really need. You would have to decide that.

 

The Ricoh Dicord is another good option for one starting out in MF but IMHO it is a step down (albeit a VERY small step) from the Autocord. Not a bad review by any means as they have awesome lenses but just not quite a well made. Great double focus levers though.

 

And finally my all time favorite TLR is the Zeiss Ikon Ikoflex with the Tessar lens. Here you get the Zeiss lens that everyone raves about without the price attached to "those others" that use the Zeiss lens. I would recommend the Ikoflex 1a or 11a, second version as being the most reliable. The one thing to watch for with these is the viewing mirror has been known to loose it's coating over time and will need to be replace. Not a serious problem but something to watch for and ask any seller on the auction site. Most models have the red window you mentioned but in the 1a and 11a this is on the bottom, has a proper closeable cover and is used only to line up the film for the first frame and then you never have to use it again until the next roll of film.

 

Color film is excellent in, as mentioned, post WW11 TLR's with coated lenses. In my portfolio there are a few color shots taken with one of my Autocords. And there is nothing like a MF chrome except...well, maybe a LF chrome.

 

Another option if you are just starting out is a (dare I say it??) a folder. They come with their own set of issues and assets which I will not get into but that's how I started out to learn the MF nuances. They are a lot of fun, cheap to buy (you can afford lots of them in 4.5x6, 6x6 or 6x9 formats), quite cheap to fix (CLA) and Zeiss Ikon Ikonta, Agfa Isolette or Voigtlander Perkeo all sport some of the best glass and shutters around. Check out the Classic Camera Forum for lots of info and photos taken with these beauties. There are also a few in my portfolio.

 

You have lots of diverse advice here so now it's up to you to decide what you will use it for and what suits your needs. What ever it is that you choose have fun with it and share your results with us.

[scotshot]

Hi, i have used a Mamiya C330 TLR for a few years now. I also picked it because money was an issue. As i have said i have used it for a few years and it's a great camera and if used with care can produce top quality shots, be they portraits, landscapes or even close-ups. you can see some of my shots here. http://www.scotshot.co.uk/gallery_83169.html all square shots were taken with the afore mentioned TLR.

Jim.

[simus]

Hi Joe,

 

Some weeks ago I asked myself the same question because I whished to eneter the MF

world. I decided to buy a Rolleiflex 3.5E and a Hasselblad 500 cm with three lens. I found

them in not so good aesthetical condition but in very good working order so I paid them

low, about 1500 US$.

In the use they are two different things. Hasselblad works like a normal reflex except it is a

little bit slower to use and possibility to easily use filters. Rolleiflex is a pleasure to play

with and very silent, light and smoth. Both have very sharp lenses.

 

Antonio

[fewellp]

I have three suggestions:

 

Mamiya C330s with chimney finder and lens kit, 55mm,65mm,80mm,105mm,135mm, and 180mm with a Maxwell micro prism rangefinder screen. Totally awesome camera for black and white, you need the paramender for any macro work. And a jobo cpa to process your film. I love this kit, its mint and cost under 1200 all fits into pelican case. I never feel more like a photographer than when I am looking through this camera. Also makes a great weapon on a dark night in New Orleans...

 

2. Rolleiflex, I bought a 2.8E and a then rollei T 3.5. If you go rollei rout send them to Harry Flenor at ocean side camera repair and have them serviced and add a Maxwell screen. Both of my rollei cameras are like new thanks to Harry. Cost is higher as the repairs were in the $600 range + screen. By the way both cameras appeared to be in very good condition and both were purchased from original owner at around 200 each and they both came with original box, sales slip etc. If you go rollei throw away the old leather strap and replace it with a new leather rollei strap or your cool toy will hit the ground. Love the size of this camera and one focal length forces you to focus on the shot and not on the camera bag. Use this when I am looking for simplicity and totally being creative. It makes the C330 feel like a tank, which it is.

 

3rd choice: Mamiya 7 with 43mm, 65mm, 80mm, I also have the 150 but seldom use it on the camera. This is my perfect walking around camera and if I can only take 1 film camera and lens its this one with the 43mm. The 6x7 chrome loves the wide angle.

 

Mamiya C330 is easy on budget a great camera that will continue to make great images for as long as film is available. Use the appropriate lens hood on any old TLR's to avoid flare.

 

 

Good luck and beware: TLRS are addictive!<div></div>

[tim_drake]

James, very nice photos! Hi Joe, I do not know if you are still checking your thread but I thought I might add a few notes. You have done your home work well. You have a very nice list of high quality affordable cameras. I happen to have one through seven on your list. I shoot mainly landscape and almost always on a tripod, including my digital Casio. Every camera on your list can do at least one thing very well that no digital camera can, long exposure night photography.

 

1. I have a Mamiya 330s and 220f. Really like both, the 220f is smaller and lighter but the 330s has focus lock which I really like for macro. This system can do things that no other camera on your list can. Most lenses stop down to at least f32.

 

2. I have the Rolleicord Vb with a Maxwell screen. If I was left handed I think I would use this camera more, I just do not like the ergonomics. It also does not have a flash shoe mount on the side which I like to slip in a spirit level. A spirit level on a tlr really helps keep the trees and buildings from be off angle. Best features are the lens and the name.

 

3. I have the Yashica D with the Yashinon lens. I prefer tlrs without lightmeters. Dean Williams clad the shutter and turned this camera into a gorgeous camera with red leather. When I use this camera people always stop to ask me what camera it is. Dean is your best choice for buying a Yashica tlr and does great service work on every camera on your list. His email is deanw@bmi.net The Yashinon is a sharp lens but I would agree with others that the film winding is not the best.

 

4. The Minolta Autocord is a dream. Great ergonomics, super sharp lens with great color rendition, and readily available. On my son?s first trip to Brazil he had all his Nikon gear stolen at gun point. On his next trip he took an Autocord and came back with some of his best work ever.

 

5. I do not have the Omegaflex but I do have a Rapid 200. I had a Rapid M but sold it only because I like the all black look of the 200. This camera with the 58mm lens is stunning. As sharp as a Rolleiflex but a lot more versatile and a 6x7 to boot. This is one of my favorite night photography cameras using ektachrome 160T or 64T. I rarely finish half a roll in one night and can change film magazines while waiting for the next new moon. Also love black and white in this camera.

 

6. If you do not need a winding lever, the Diacord is a steal. Great lens and shutter, trouble free film winding (better than the Yashica D), and will produce better images than the most expensive vintage folder I own. Another dirt cheap camera not on you list with a top notch lens and shutter is the Ciro-flex with the 4 element Wollensak 83mm Raptar lens and Rapax shutter. You do have to use the ruby window though for film winding but I have never had a problem shooting Fuji Provia 100F through it. This lens is as sharp as every fixed lens camera on your list.

 

7. I am not exactly sure which model Ikoflex I have but it does have the Zeiss Opton Tessar with the red T. As mentioned elsewhere you have to use the ruby window to start a roll of film. Best to have the owners manual to get started. Left hand focusing, no flash shoe mount for the spirit level, and only stops down to f16. Capable of nice chromes but my least favorite camera on you list.

 

 

I think once you shoot some Velvia and or Rollei IR (a B&W negative film) developed in DR5 chrome you will see why loads of people are still in love with 6x6 medium format landscape photography. Regards, TD

[joe_rizzo1]

I am still checking the posts, I have looked at so darn many tlrs I am dizzy, one minuet I am thinking mamiya then I see the other brands and think hmm that is a possibility also, but cannot have them all.

<p>

 

Has anyone ever seen the shutter blades auctions on the c330 bodies, I have looked at those thinking that I could just build my own system but the final cost may be just as equal to or more than buying the entire outfit, plus what ever else that might be missing or need repair on a body only, stupid question but I have to ask, in reference to the shutter blade auctions there is no chimney on the body which seems strange.

<p>

 

I have also come across a few older models but passed them up, such as the old graflex 22, seen some nice baby tlrs but 127 film, nice ricoh 66, even came across an elmoflex on a web site, a guy needs blinders looking at them all.

<p>

 

Another thing that puzzles me is you never see just the lenses for the yashicas, minoltas, ricohs, iko, etc, nor any other various parts, if a guy got ahold of a camera and the taking or both lenses were bad you would have to just buy another camera just for the parts.

<p>

 

Another thing I have seen popping up in threads is the left handed deal of which I am left handed, so there is another issue that could possibly sway a person in a certain direction.

<p>

 

I just went from using AF lenses on my digital to using nothing but the old manual lenses and it sure does make a difference, it opens the door for more creative shots, but this is about TLRs so back to those, nite shots using a tlr now that I never thought of, you mention the ciro flex which I think is part of graflex, here is a shot with an old ciro.

<p>

 

http://www.cosmonet.org/camera/ciroflex_e.htm

<p>

 

Now on the other hand I come across this posting on the ciro,

<p>

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00LxGt

<p>

so whats a guy gonna do, they are cheap enough if so if a part would break and if certain parts are interchangeable I see no big deal.

<p>

 

I know I am all over the map on which brand to get and some are probably thinking enough already just get one, so the ciros are good in price that may the one to go for as a starter to get, you all think that would be a wise move.

[ben_long]

I've had my eye out for a Ciroflex, and if you do get one, try to buy the model F, which has

the best lens of the series, the brightest viewfinder, and the Rapax shutter. The Graflex 22 is

supposed to be the same model, re-badged.

[joe_rizzo1]

I put the wrong link in the thread,

<br>

Now on the other hand I come across this posting on the ciro, <p>

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00LxGt

<p>

 

so whats a guy gonna do, they are cheap enough if so if a part would break and if certain parts are interchangeable I see no big deal.

<p>

 

Here is the correct one in reference to this:

<p>

 

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003sbV