They hired a second photographer...now what?

[beth_dill]

I just recieved an email from one of my upcoming brides stating ...

 

"We just wanted to let you know that although we had initially planned to only

have one photographer, we will now be having a second photographer present for

the wedding day. I do recall you saying that you didn't want to have to fight

another photographer for space and I did relay that message to him. He desires

to practice his photography and sharpen his skills. He is very willing to give

you the space you need and to work around you. Thank you for your efforts so

far."

 

My contract cleary states that I am the exclusive photographer. I don't have a

problem having other people take pictures during the wedding, because it

happens at every wedding no matter how much you fight it. However, I do want

to make it absolutely clear to the bride that I will be the one directing the

formals and getting in priority positions during main events. Have any of you

dealt with this before? Any suggestions would be great! Thanks in advance!

[susan_flewelling]

Humm I never dealt with this before. She probably found him on Craigs List or he is a friend. If it were me I don't think I would allow this. He can take a photo over your shoulder that you set up and claim it as his own.

 

I would go to the bride and say that if she wanted a second photographer you would be happy to charge her (whatever $$$) and provide her with a second photographer through your own company. If she didn't want to do that then do reiterate to her the contract stating that you are the only photographer to be hired at this wedding.

 

Good luck!

[buckry]

Pretty cut and dry, your contract states they can't do this. If the other guy just wants practice, he probably doesn't have a contract, so tell them to give him his $100 or whatever they paid him back.

[picturesque]

Similar thread.

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00KIy5

 

I've done this before and it can work OK or be a disaster. I would definitely contact this person beforehand and work everything out with him/her before agreeing to the situation. In fact, try to get this person to act as second photographer following your lead. You do this by clearly stating that you are the primary and then making suggestions at each venue and at each point in the planned schedule, as to what that person can shoot while you're doing other stuff, to help you. Look at their previous work, and if you feel confident that you don't need to cover whatever you "assign" them, you'll actually have some pressure off you. On the other hand, if the person's objective is to build his/her portfolio, he or she will not want to shoot second, and that would be trouble.

[ryan_jensen1]

I would definitely tell her no...gently. You don't want to shove a contract in her face.

 

It's definitely a friend of hers. The downsides?

1. You are GOING to lose print sales. This guy is going to give them a CD with hundreds of images, some of which, if only by sheer luck, are going to be better than yours. This guy will end up shooting the formals/portraits alongside you and you will lose that $$$.

 

2. He will get in your way and he's going to want to be your pal. Again, not a huge problem necessarily, but you don't want to spend the ceremony telling this guy "Get out of the way!" This guy isn't going to know what "priority positions" are and will end up in your lap.

 

I would direct her attention to the contract, let her know that you have had disasters in the past (whether or not this is true) and you would very much prefer if this was NOT the case. If she had mentioned it during the initial meeting, you would have told her it wasn't possible. The reasons I listed in #2 are definitely things you can tell her.

 

If she persists, I would ask her if you can find a compromise. Perhaps you could have him shoot the reception only with you. You could offer to hang out with him a bit then and give him some pointers? There has to be a way to keep him from the ceremony and the formals without getting into a fight with the bride.

 

Ryan

[steve george]

The horror! I recently shot a wedding where one of the guests had got married a couple of weeks before and hired a high-end big budget photographer with 2 assistants and a full lighting rig...she didn't attempt to hide her disdain when I turned up on my own with 2 cameras (one as backup), no lighting beyond flash and my unobtrusive approach (as requested by the bride and groom). Her constant "my photographer did this...my photographer did that...shouldn't you be doing it this way like my photographer did?" were almost like having an unrequested 2nd photographer there and it definitely gave me a headache!

 

I should clarify here that the massive difference between the two weddings was largely because her photographer was of the traditional, very formal, set-up shots variety, (absolutely nothing wrong with that at all obviously) and the couple I was shooting requested the polar opposite of that (no formals, no setup shots).

 

On a more serious note the closest I've had to this was a couple telling me the night before that one of their guests wanted to be a wedding photographer so would be taking shots over my shoulder throughout "for reference purposes only". It only became a problem when he tried to get a different angle to me and got in my shots. Maybe try telling him you'll let him get the shots, but he has to wait until you've got yours - ie. you'll take a couple, step back and let him get some before you move on.

[ellis_vener_photography]

you need it to make absolutely clear to the "Second photogrpaher" that youare i ncharge and he will not shoot the formal portraits with your lighting or hold you up in any way.

 

But you definitely need to talk to the other photographer and work things out before hand. Make friends, but make sure they understand that they get one warning and after that you'll have to go talk with the wedding co-ordinator or the bride if necessary.

[conraderb]

if you don' tlike it just b/c it violates your contract, you can gently tell your client that.

 

if you think that this is going to be a problem with the 2nd interfering, I would tell the client that you can't do your job as well....

 

good luck. tough issue.

 

conrad

[beth_dill]

Thanks everyone! I think I will email the bride letting her know my concerns and asking her if she could put me in contact with the other photographer. I will then explain to him that I will allow him to take photos during the ceremony (as long as he stays in the places I tell him and out of my way) and at the reception. As far as formals go I will explain that he is more than welcome to consult the bride and groom about having is own formal session of them, but I will not allow him to use my posing and lighting. I've had problems with guests in the past during formals, especially when we're in a time crunch, so I'm thinking about instilling a no photos during formals policy anyway.

[rogerjporter]

i had a uncommon experience a couple of summers ago, i went to a friends wedding in

England (i am in the states) and the day of the wedding there was no photographer for the

before-ceremony shots. i have a few dozen weddings under my belt, so i jumped in and

started doing some candids around the dressing rooms just for fun. they were all good

friends, and no one seemed to mind and was very appreciative, even the bride and groom.

about 10 minutes before the ceremony is supposed to start, here comes the

photographer, and he parks illegally in a spot he isn't supposed to. as the ceremony is

starting, he is out moving his car. i continue my casual coverage of the wedding, and he

finally shows up so i sit down to enjoy myself. the ceremony finishes up and he does the

formals outside the cute little rural church in the yard. i look over, and the guy has a

D100 and a 24-85 lens (the 2.8-4.5), and that is it... no flashes, no other lenses, no

nothing. i think, this guy must be the bomb, he must be the most awesome photographer

in the world to only need the one camera and lens... i must be doing something wrong

and i better give up photography forever. he finishes up the formals, does a couple of

quick snaps around the reception area, the cake, the tables, and then packs it up and

leaves. wow, i think, that is pretty small coverage, so i grab my camera again and go to

town on the reception. i finished up with about 400 shots for the day, mostly fun shots of

friends and family.

when i got back home to the states, i find out that the guy who was there wasn't actually

the photographer, he was the assistant. the primary photographer's car broke down so far

away (it was a rural country wedding) that he wasn't able to get there. bummer. the bride

said her album actually did turn out well, he got a lot of good shots, and the inclusion of

my shots made the day complete. you just never really know what might go on at a

wedding, and i have learned a valuable lesson about back-up plans. sorry not exactly on

topic for this thread, but some of the above comments made me think of it.

[richsimmons]

Tough one. The fact that they said, "He desires to practice his photography and sharpen his skills. He is very willing to give you the space you need and to work around you," means he's an amateur. The best way to work it to your advantage if you HAVE to do this would be to talk to the guy first, explain your situation/contract and make him perfectly aware of what's going to happen. If he gives you grief, then I would approach the B&G.

[kenny_c]

I think your reaction might be a bit heavy handed with this approach, why not just get in touch with the other photographer prior and make the necessary agreements with him in regards to what to do / not do? Perhaps the bride isnt even hiring him out, and just giving you a heads up.

[annealmasy]

<i>"Dear Bride,

<p>

Thank you for letting me know of your plans to have a second photographer at your

wedding.

<p>

You may have forgotten that our contract with one another does not permit the presense

or participation of another hired photographer. Additional photographers not under my

studio's control may impact my ability to fulfill my contract with you and provide you with

the highest-quality photographs.

<p>

If you feel a second photographer is necessary on your wedding day, I will be glad to

provide a second shooter for $xxx. My associates are all well-trained and fully-equipped

to do an outstanding job for you.

<p>

Please get in touch as soon as possible and let me know how you would like to proceed.

<p>

Thank you again for communicating with me!

<p>

-Photographer"</i>

<p>

That is pretty much what I would write in response, with some personal, friendly

commentary thrown in (assuming you have a personal, friendly relationship with the

bride).

<p>

If you communicate further and find out the second photographer is an unpaid friend, you

can just clarify (in writing) that this person should make every effort not to get in your

way.

<p>

If the bride won't cooperate, there is only so much you can do about this without causing a

scene. Be prepared in your mind as to how you will respond if you arrive on the wedding

day and another photographer is there. Knowing in advance how you will react will ensure

you don't make any mistakes that could come back to bite you. :)

[DickArnold]

There is nothing like personal contact. I would call the bride to be and discuss it with her. E-mails can have implications that generate misunderstandings. I would find out where she got him or her and try to establish some protocol for relationships. Then talk to the other photographer backed by an understanding with the person who hired you.

[m_tt_donuts]

When my brother got married, I brought my photography gear. I have a Nikon F5 setup, with a flash bracket and 80-400VR lens which is one monstrous setup, I brought it just incase. The real photographer noticed I'd brought "my gear" and was obviously disturbed. He approached me and said I don't mind you taking your own photos, but please do not take any groups. It takes a lot of work, concentration, and effort to get people into poses and ready and you taking the shot you're in essence stealing my work and creativity. He was absolutely right, I knew EXACTLY what he was saying and wished I'd done better at "hiding" my outfit. I didn't even use it the whole night but that's how I was approached.

 

There was a wedding who booked me and another photographer. It was awful. None of the people knew who to look at. Every group photo half the people were looking at the other photographer and vice versa. We had to set the rule when doing group photo's the other photographer can't be in the area, even so it seemed people were looking for the "other" one. The mother/son dance and Father/bride dance was just as confusing one or the other was looking at either me or him and very difficult to get focus. Everyone looked like they were confused like a deer in the headlights. That was by far my worst wedding shoot ever.

 

I also recommend you say something, the results are going to be bad if they bring their own camera. No one's going to know who to look at, as mentioned some of their pictures are sure to be better than yours, and you will only sell the pictures the other didn't get to "fill" in the gap. If I were you, I think the best option would be to ask the bride to take that person in as a student, they can't bring their camera rather take direction from you to hold up gold reflectors, or secondary flashes. You can't stop them from learning as they're going to be following you around, asking you questions, watching and learning anyway, and if they bring their camera taking money away from you. At least having them work with you, you might as well get better results, and potentially prevent them from taking pictures.

[don_hill]

I remember years ago that budget brides would hire inexpensive or inexperinced

photographers, get a little scared with their decision, and then have an uncle with a

camera show up just to make sure everything was solid. This happened to every one of

my low cost colleagues who were entering the field almost every weekend.

 

It sounds like this is happening to you as your pricing is minimal for 8 hours of coverage

including the CD. Do your best to reassure your client. If she insists that there needs to

be another photographer in attendance you have two options:

 

1. Work with the photographer in the best of your abilities and professionalism. There

are great ideas listed above.

 

2. Refund their deposit and walk away. Your contract states that you are the exclusive

photographer, and she agreed to that stipulation and wants to ignore it.

 

I'd do the second option, as there is nothing good that can come from this working

arrangement. It is similiar to the videographer who tracks you down before the wedding

to tell you "I promise I won't get in the way." The ones that say that always do in the worst

of ways.

 

Remember that as the paid professional, anything that can and will go wrong will be

attibuted to you. This novice is going to make mistakes, and that is going to reflect on

you.

[don_hill]

I should have waited a few minutes to post, Matt gave a much more compelling reason why

two competing photographers will always clash.

[brooke_moore]

Nightmare!

 

No matter what you do at this point this other person is going to be there is going to photograph and what ever happens it will be your fautlt.

 

Since you know ahead your options are to forfeit the contract, go anyway and make the best of it, try to end run before hand and know without a doubt that there is NO trust with the client.

 

My inclination would be to get out of it. Since they are not satisfied that you will do a full job let them move on.

 

Over the years I have had amateurs, aspiring pros, those who intended to rip me off and some amiable wanna bes. The worst is when you have no idea what the deal is and are trying to figure out who to offend the person with the camera or the client.

 

A few weeks ago I finally told the grandmother with her point and shoot digital that she needed to give me and the bride and groom a few minutes of private photo time. So she stood there with her camera at her side and said" I'm just watching!" Finally the groom told her enough and she left us alone for a few moments.

 

The only hired photog clause in most contracts seems to be hard to enforce and to a non-pro doesn't mean much. I guess my suggestion would be to really try and find out what the concern is on the part of the bride. Is she trying to "help out" someone else or does she really not have conficdence in you. THe answer from her will point you in a direction.

 

I do feel you need to have a game plan. I have always felt I was willing to walk away and defend my "the limit of liability is the amount paid" part of my contract. Not a great situation to walk into.

 

Good luck

 

Brooke

[stephen dohring]

Matt made the key point - the eyes go everywhere. The other point is that this person is going to be a distraction the entire time totally sufficating your creativity. Your mind will fluctuate on what you are doing and what he is doing and it will affect the photos, and THAT is what I would discuss with the bride. Funny on how people don't want them shooting formals over the shoulder, I would say "you do all the formals" while I get the fun moments going on. The fashion set up and natural set up poses are what I would be more pissed about but again 1. the eyes and 2. distraction then 3. your contract. Cover those with you Bride.

 

I was shooting last weekend and a guy had a 5d and high end flash. He started off direct on flash then watched me and was bouncing later on, then had the card up like me furthen on. I didn't care much but I noticed it and it was a distraction when I am looking at him and thinking about stuff. 95% of the time I was focused but what did I miss or not nail because of the natural thought process of a guy getting "good enough" shots to take your print sales.

[annealmasy]

Unlike some have suggested, don't immediately assume that this second photographer has

been hired because the couple doesn't trust you. Also don't assume that the second

photographer has been "hired" - this could be a freebie offered by an accquaintance

wanting to learn. Basically, don't assume anything.

 

Remind the bride of the terms of your contract, then wait and see what she says.

 

It's completely possible that the second photographer is, in fact, Cousin Harry, in which

case you can just make sure to communicate your expectations of any guests who decide

to bring their own cameras.

 

Your contract should say something like, "Wedding guests are welcome to photograph the

wedding events so long as they do not interfere with the photographer's duties."

[dj_soroka]

The bride says that the second photographer "desires to practice his photography and sharpen his skills."

 

Sounds like he could be wanting to shoot your setups, and flash the event's critical moments.

 

You need to decide if you want to allow this, what you do want to allow, and then do your best to ensure that he honors your requirements (easier said than done).

[dj_soroka]

And as has already been mentioned, who will your subjects eyes be focused on ??

[picturesque]

If you approach this whole scenario as a nightmare waiting to happen, it will. Before calling upon your contract and exercising your photographer's muscle, find out this person's intentions. As I mentioned, you could turn this to your advantage, in which case, this photographer will not be shooting your formals because you will have instructed him/her to get the other stuff going on during the time you are running down the list of formals. If it works this way, everyone wins. If you don't take control from the beginning, you WILL have a disaster. And if the other photographer does not cooperate, you can always decline or bring out your contract, or even threaten to walk off the job if he or she misbehaves badly enough at the event. Any and all of this should be done with a smile on your face. Point is, you don't want to be the bad guy if you don't have to.

 

Incidentally, if faced with eyes wandering during the formals, I simply stop and either let the other take his/her picture, and/or re-direct everyone's attention to me before taking the shot. This is not difficult to do. Trying to shoo someone out of your way during the ceremony or out of the backgrounds of candids, is.

[gina_marie1]

Interesting, this very morning I had a related situation with a client. However she was very respectful and asked beforehand, explaining that her wedding was starting to get out of control and she was nervous about getting all the family photos she needed so she wondered how we felt about working with a THIRD photographer. She only wanted extra coverage for getting ready and the family photos and I can see a bride wanting 2 shooters, but we already included that.

 

I advised her that we couldn't work with a 3rd and gave her very specific examples why. In the last month in particular we have had some very enthusiastic family members bring their gear and it definitely caused interference and a loss in some image quality. They took shots of every family grouping and no matter how much you advise all subjects to look at the hired shooter, there are always at least one pair of eyes looking at the wrong camera.

 

It also causes you loss of time because subjects are not just posing for one camera, but 2 or even 3. This always ends up with our newlyweds left with less time than needed to get their posed and candid portraits.

 

We are currently processing a wedding where the Aunt of the groom was a professional photographer. They told her they wanted her to enjoy the wedding and NOT BRING her camera. Well, needless to say she brought it anyway and was very polite with us letting us know she wouldn't get in the way. We are now left with a bunch of ceremony images where she can be seen seated in the first or 2nd row, visibly leaning towards the center of the aisle...quite a distraction conflicting with our unobtrusive style of photographs. We worked different angles and zoomed in, but those wonderful wide angle shots from the back of the aisle with the couple facing each other during the ceremony are not as wonderful as they could have been. And you can't exactly walk up in the middle of a quiet ceremony and tell her to put her camera down and clear the aisle.

 

Anyway..I basically used examples like this to let the client know why hiring a 3rd, independent shooter wasn't a good idea.

[DickArnold]

I worked very hard at establishing pre-wedding communication with the principles like Bride, groom and mothers and fathers. I was mostly able to talk issues like this through before the fact of the wedding. What happens if you don't immediately work directly with a problem in a friendly way it turns into all sorts of imagined dire scenarios on both sides. Going to writing before trying to work it out verbally oft times exacerbates hostility. My point is made by all the imagined scenarios on this thread over what may turn out to be a tempest in a teapot if actually talked through. And again it may not but it is certainly worth a try.