What to do for non-payment?

[jeffc1]

I have a wedding this Saturday. I was given a retainer the first of the year

by this couple. Their balance was due 2 weeks ago per contract. I sent a

letter last week and heard nothing. I called them today and spoke to the

groom. I explained that the balance is past due, and said that I would still

accept a check by Thursday, but if they want to pay on Friday it will need to

be paid in cash. He just repeatedly said ok in sort of a silly voice. Not sure

what to do if they do not pay by Friday? I guess I will show up at the wedding

on Saturday to meet my obligation to them, and expect a cash payment prior to

taking photos, but if they do not want to pay at that time with cash, what do

you feel I should do? Take a chance and accept a check if offered, or leave? I

guess I could accept a check, cover the wedding and not give proofs until

check clears?

[mreul]

it seems some what strange he seemed "silly"...about payment. all my clients have paid me before as requested... i know something could come up at times but i feel your client should "respect" the way you practice busiess and pay as requsted.

[kbbruner]

Well...I'm nice so I would probably show up and shoot anyway, and then not eve touch them (no editing, no blog, nothing) until payment is received (I also have a late payment penalty listed in my contract).

 

However, my contract also says that if I do not receive payment, I won't come.

 

I don't know that I wouldn't show up. But I certainly wouldn't do any further work until payment was received, along with a certain late payment fee.

 

Ksenia

[erich_murphy]

I'd shoot it and hold the photos hostage 'till that final payment.

You've already made money on it. Only thing you can do is make more (no real loss even if they don't pay, depending on the retainer of course)

[stephen dohring]

What did he say ok to - paying by Thurs or paying in cash on Friday? You need a definitive answer to know what to expect.

[john_h.1]

"I guess I could accept a check, cover the wedding and not give proofs until check clears?"

 

This is probably the safest route business wise. You avoid servere and unjustified badmouthing, you avoid claims about non performance and ficticious agreements to alter the terms. You are still are entitled to get more money eventually. You avoid claims that the wording of the contract was really an unenforcable deposit rather tan liquidated damages. The list can go on and on.

 

I wonder if your contract says you can decide whether to shoot rather than some sort of automatic default termination where they can cut their losses and give Uncle Bob a couple hundred bucks. The part that concerns me with this 'safe' route is that, if you agree to alter your terms unilaterally and they have no new obligations in exchange (such as agreeing to forgo any product until full payment is tendered), then there could be exposure to claims that you ratified their deviation and are obligated to deliver. I doubt this would work but a bilateral contract modification may be an even safer route for various reasons.

 

Lame but vital disclaimer: This is not legal advice.

 

One day a client is going to figure out that most photographers will likely show up anyway and they can pay some other time. Risky, but I wouldn't put it past a lot of them to call the bluff.

[nancy s.]

I wonder if he is on drugs..... and I am being serious.

 

Show up to shoot. If he is still "silly" about paying you can smile, giggle, and get in your car and drive away and be just as silly.

[joshranwest]

I have not run into this problem yet. I always get 100% of the funds at least two weeks prior to the wedding date, or I dont do the wedding. They know this up front, and I have yet to run into this. I agree with Nancy though, drive away grinnin!

[ellis_vener_photography]

"but if they do not want to pay at that time with cash, what do you feel I should do?"

 

Wha tare your options?

 

1.) Leave

 

2.) take photos and if not paid in cash o ndelivery of proofs or before the first gallery is posted, eletthem no you will erase the files or cut up the negatives.

 

3.) deliver proofs and hope you'll be paid at some point before hell freezes over.

 

I just had a client who tired this stunt. thye gave me a check the day before the wedding and I went straight to their bank and cashed it. When I got back to the office there was a call asking me to hold the check for a couple of days. I showed up as scheduled made great photos and it was never mentioned -- though the sister whose house the reception was at gave me dirty looks all evening.

[rick_gerbehy1]

It's not unusual to find out late, that no one was sure who exactly was going to pay the photographer. I've been hired and I have been at more than one event where the bride / groom or the future in laws all thought the other was taking care of that bill. Be diplomatic and ask as nice as you can to be put in touch with the person responsible for payment. If you have a reasonably good deposit.....shoot the job and wait for payment.

[barry_davis___st._louis__m]

This has sorta been answered before, but its a good topic. Do you think the tux's go out the door unpaid? Does the cake get delivered without full payment? Does she get the dress hem'd without a service charge? DO they use the reception hall without payment? More than likely, no. It's a tough call on your part, but you know "your" client. I personnally feel that holding images hostage for payment is unethical. I think I'd be more direct and not shoot one image until payment is made...but hey, thats just my opinion...you have to go with what you feel.

[john_h.1]

"take photos and if not paid in cash o ndelivery of proofs or before the first gallery is posted, eletthem no you will erase the files or cut up the negatives."

 

Once you excuse some breach on the client's part, by shooting the wedding anyway, you could be binding yourself to tendering the images at some point. This may be after they pay up and almost certainly will be after if new mutual terms to that effect are agreed upon. Unless you are a glutton for self inflicted punishment, DO NOT destroy or even threaten to destroy the images you have taken. The threat itself can be deemed as a repudiation and breach of your obligations. Save the images and hold em hostage under new terms if you chose Ellis' option 2.

 

While on the issue of self inflicted pain, option 3 begs for it. Be very careful with #1. The contract beter be rock solid and screened professionally for those pesky and difficult to recognize loopholes.

 

Cashing the check like Ellis did, when there is no time to let it clear, was very smart. I will add that you should call ahead to the bank before accepting the check and relying on the dash to the bank. Some banks are begining to impose restrictions on cashing their customers checks on the spot.

[john_h.1]

I don't see how holding the images violates ethical standards at least under a scenerio where both parties agreed to modify the contract to allow for it. Moreover, if one could have walked away but allowed this break for the client, it isn't exactly screwing someone over. Its granting them a huge favor even if its done for CYA purposes.

[surfidaho]

I consider holding the images a lot less dangerous to your reputation than driving away grinning.

 

I have never driven away from a wedding, but I have held images many times. It's perfectly acceptable.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

[edsel_adams]

I would call the night before, and demand cash or certified check as payment. And tell them you want the full amount when you walk through the door in the A.M.

[kari douma]

I would show up, ask for the money. I would still shoot the wedding, but as the others said... not one more thing until you get paid. Maybe even not one more thing until the check clears. This might delay their proofs, but let them know that is why. If thier proofs take 2-3 weeks longer to get started because you were waiting for the check to clear, let them know that. Let them know that is why you require payment upfront.

[annealmasy]

Assuming your contract has provisions for this, I would not shoot without payment. This is

your livelihood; this is not a "pay-if-you-feel-like-it" situation. By ignoring the terms of their

contract and not paying you on time, they are in breach. You should not do anything further

without payment. If they don't pay you by Friday -- your oh-so-courteous second deadline

-- then you don't show up on Saturday. Make this VERY clear to them. This isn't a joke.

[a_sivak]

Jeff, the simple system I use is this, the day they close me, I take 3 checks up front. The balance is split in 3. 1/3 for the day they close with me, the next 1/3 is the day of the event, and last 1/3 is a month after the wedding. I get my money wether they like it or not. I suggest you start doing this and not have to find yourself fighting with the couples which leaves a bitter feeling..get it out of the way. I hate running after the couple for money. I've used this system and it works, plain and simple.

[john_h.1]

"they are in breach... ...If they don't pay you by Friday -- your oh-so-courteous second deadline -- then you don't show up on Saturday."

 

 

Danger Will Robinson , Danger!! I wouldn't bet the farm on this breach assertion when you altered the terms where the breach would lie... the deadline. Contracts are interpreted in different ways in different states. By allowing a deviation from the deadline you could have caused the whole deadline scheme to be unenforcable. If that happens and you didn't shoot, your legal justification is down the tubes. Also, this assumes your contract language is air tight which is not something that anyone here can conclude. Even if one is qualified, it is not available to any of us.

 

Its easy for someone to tell you to walk but no one that does will be sitting in your shoes if you are held accoutable. What would you do then? Tell the judge that the folks on photo.net said it was OK? Even if you previal in a claim against you, the hassle of getting to that point will be huge. The only safe route is to do the shoot. Other reasons to do so are discussed above already.

[jeffc1]

All of the feedback here was very good. One thing that I did not mention before was I spoke to the bride a couple of weeks ago regarding the details of her wedding day so that I could make out a schedule as I normally do. She stated that she "has always put things off until the last minute" in a way that this was normal for her and she sort of sounded proud of this behavior. I made up the schedule and mailed it to her with a note that her balance was past due.

 

My contract clearly states that "photography services will not be rendered until balance is paid in full". I have had balances paid a few days late in the past, but I did not have to "chase" them, and I have had them call saying that due to the business of the wedding it was over looked, which I understand and can accept, but I have never had an unpaid balance come this close.

 

I have decided that if I am not paid by Friday, cash, that I will show up at the wedding with my assistants, but I will not take one piece of photo equipment into the church until I receive cash payment. I will NOT accept a check and be the one to rush to the bank. They will have to send someone for the cash. This will also waste time, which will mean less photographs for them. I feel that by doing this I have met my obligation to them by offering my photography services even though the balance was not paid on the due date. Therefore, I would have gone above and beyond what I had to do. If they refuse to pay at that time, I refuse to take one image and I will leave. If they want to bad mouth me, well I cannot control what certain people will do, but I feel that those that they will bad mouth me to will know how they are base on the bride "always putting things off" attitude. If they want to go to court over this, so be it. I am sure that if I get there, and if I am refused to be paid in cash, that I can have the bride ask me to leave, which I will gladly do. What stinks about this whole thing, if I do not end up shooting this wedding, is that I have had numerous calls from potential clients that wanted this date (07-07-07).

 

I am optimistic that this will work out just fine. I will keep you all posted.

[john_h.1]

Under pressure they will likely arrive with Mr. Green at the last moment. If they don't have the cash, maybe they will borrow money and pay it off later with wedding gift cash.

 

Good luck.

[fstop11664880086]

I've only had one incident that relates to this. And it was before I had a contract. Now I have a simple system. Two payments. The first one is when they book the date, and it's for half the amount of package. The second is a week before the wedding. If I don't get the second I still shoot, but do no other work. The one incident that I had was that they paid half. I shot the wedding. No second payment. I ended up getting the rest of payment 60 days later. I handed them a DVD of their shots after payment was received. They never asked for prints. I think they were embarrassed over the whole thing. Getting half down is key. That covers my time. :) Hope this helps.

[annealmasy]

<i>John Henneberger, Jul 04, 2007; 10:55 p.m.

<br>Also, this assumes your contract language is air tight which is not something that

anyone here can conclude.</i>

<p>

Which is why I said, "Assuming your contract has provisions for this..." Obviously, if the

contract isn't solid, there are bigger problems to address.

<p>

Sounds like you've made a good decision, Jeffrey.

[jeffc1]

Well, I received the payment (check) in the mail today. Not only did I receive the balance amount, but she over paid by $200, which I will apply towards her order. I trust that the check will clear, but if not I have a $100 fee for any returned checks and will hold the proofs of course. This is the record for me for receiving the final payment (balance) prior to a wedding. In the future, balances will be due 3-weeks prior to wedding date and I will accept cash or money order only if it comes down to the last week. Funny how everyone else plays by the rules, which is great, but only takes one to cause the rules to become more strict. Live & learn.

 

Thanks for all of the input!

Jeff

[jeffc1]

Payment good and wedding was a success! Had a lot of fun. I sensed a little bit of the cold shoulder from the bride right off, ticked at me, or embarrassed, I don't know, but it got better fast and we had a blast. So all turned out great, but I still want to work on ways to make sure payments are made on time. Thanks for the advice here. I know what I will and/or will not do should payment not be received prior to wedding day.

 

Thanks again for all the help! Jeff