Max Black with NO color

[keith_baker1]

Hi Folks,

I print B&W at home and want to obtain the blackest blacks with no color tints/tones in the image. I have tried selenium but the image took on a 'color', the images without selenium also have a 'color'. I want BLACK and white - no tone whatsoever. I use Ilford MG IV RC and Oriental Seagal RC. I develop with ethol 1:4 for 1- 2 minutes. I would appreciate any advice which I can use.

Thanks in advance. Keith

[ellis_vener_photography]

Have you tried a different paper? if Photographer's Formulary is still in business you should correspond with them, or with Bostick & Sullivan. I think what

you are looking for is a cold toned paper, my impression is that both of the papers you are using have a warm tone built in to them. Maybe Kodak or Agfa has

what you are looking for.

[david richhart]

I think that Agfa Brovira produced some of the coldest blacks and

purest whites.

[john_hicks]

Ilford MGIV fiber developed in LPD 1:3 and toned in selenium toner 1:4 for three minutes looks mighty black to me. No color that I can see.

[robert_a._zeichner]

Trying to achieve the blackest black a given paper will yield will most

likely crush any detail there may be in dark tones that are any lighter

than black (Zone II, for example). Toning will darken the darkest

areas of a print and it's safe to assume that there will be some dry

down that will account for an additional deepening of the darkest

tones. If you frame you finished print behind glass (ordinary window

glass), you will darken the overall image even further. Depending on

where the image will hang, the local lighting will impact how black the

blacks look as well. Black only needs to look black when the print is

in its final viewing form. Taking all the above factors into

consideration, the black you need to achieve in the darkroom may not

need to be as black as you think! If by any chance you are printing an

image to be viewed on one of those high intensity light box things that

camera clubs use, the above info may not be of any help.

[doug_paramore2]

Keith, I agree with Robert that the final viewing area will have an

effect on the final look of the blacks in a print. For my own work, I

have found that Kodak Polycontrast III developed in Dektol for 1 1/2

minutes with a final slight toning in selenium gives me great blacks.

Most papers have a slight green cast that selenium helps correct. The

color of the light source used for viewing also has an effect. Good

luck in your quest.

[sal_santamaura]

Were it still available, I'd suggest Kodak Elite as the paper with the

most neutral color right after fixation. Since Elite has been

discontinued, give Polymax Fine Art a try. It's almost as neutral as

Elite was. When I next print on it, I'll be trying Sistan instead of

selenium toning at all, since the untoned color is so pleasing to my

eye.

[pat_krentz]

At the risk of being flamed by all the RC users out there, get

rid of RC and use a FB paper like Brilliant which has one of the

best DMax ratings on the market, the other one is Arista Classic.

The only way you will know for sure is to TRY them. Pat

Now if I can just dodge those flamming arrows!

[triblett_lungre_thurd]

I'm with you Pat... how 'bout graded? (duck Pat)

[jacque_staskon]

Ok, Ok I know I am going to get into trouble for this one, but if you

like printing on RC paper and you are happy with the Ilford and

Oriental thats fine. Your vision. My first step would be to try a

different developer. I think both these RC papers are considered

developer incorporated as well. Either the Multigrade developer put

out by Ilford or Ultra -Black put out by Edwal. Both will give you

great blacks. You might want to consider boosting your contrast a bit

during printing. Lots of folks are taught to print with out filters

IMHO big mistake. I also understand that lots of folks don't use

filters when they are making the exposure, IMHO another big mistake

for B+W. Also your developer may be too warm, this will give a

somewhat muddy appearance to the little zones. (1-3) Also are you

giving the paper constant agitation? The guys are right though when

they talk about detail, (although you did not mention it)and how the

print is going to be viewed. Only you know what you are looking

for. Hopes this helps.

[john_hicks]

We need to clarify; I assume what Keith wants is a neutral-colored print as in not warmtone or cooltone, just as neutral as possible, rather than looking for the highest D-Max possible.

 

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Correct?

[keith_baker1]

Hi, It Keith again... Thanks for the input so far - I have considered

all of it. John asked for clarification: I do want a deep DMax, but

I don't want the blue-black or green-black or brown-blacks etc. I

want only black - no hint/tint/color/hue and so on. I don't know if

that is 'neutral' or 'cold'. I will try the different dilutions of

ethol. I presently use 'neutral', I will conpare to both a more

dilute (warm) and a more concentrated developer (cold). I saw a

print when I was out in Calif by an old guy named 'Adams' - The thing

had jet black shadows and they were CLEAN - not a hint of any color.

As alway, thanks for your thoughful input. Keith

[john_hicks]

OK, I assumed right. Ilford MGIV fiber in LPD 1:3, toned in Kodak selenium toner 1:4 two to three minutes.

 

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You're working with a two-part problem; you need a paper and developer that give you neutral color plus doesn't take on a color when selenium-toned. MGIV fiber is that paper. Lots of people grouse that MGIV fiber _doesn't_ change color in selenium.

 

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Now...you've noted that LPD will vary color according to dilution; it does a bit but not tremendously. Also, if the paper color is a little warm (brownish) you can cool it with the addition of a little benzotriazone or Edwal Liquid Orthazite to the developer.

 

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Display illumination is also a factor; tungsten lights make a print look warm while fluorescents make it look cool. RC really goofs up color; the titanium dioxide brightener fluoresces.

[andreas_carl]

I bet Mr. Adams never printed on RC paper. If you want to imitate

his "Look" you need fiber paper. My all time favourite is Ilford

Gallery. It's very neutral right after fixation and I normally give

it just a touch of selenium toning (diluted 1:20 or so) - this will

intensify the blacks, but not shift the color.