Bessamatic ? Retina Reflex?

[kevin h. y. lui.]

After trying my retina iiic, I found that the lens quality is perfect, even some

minor scratches on the lens surface.

This time I want to try SLR. But I don't know which one I should choose :

Voigtlander's Bessamatic/Ultramatic, ? Or Kodak's Retina reflex?

I want to get a cheaper one with high quality Lens. Also, which mechanism is

better?

 

Please give me some advice. Thank you.

[summitar]

Check out Ivor Matanle's book on classic SLRs. I am pretty sure he favors the Bessamatics. One big reason is that the Kodak SLRs are notoriously difficult and expensive to repair. I think that every member of this forum should own copies of Matanle's two wonderful books on classic cameras. I have never seen him post here. We are both members of the Voigtlander Verein. If he does indeed lurk here, I strongly urge him to publish a compilation of his more recent articles on classic cameras that appear in British photo magazines. There is only one newstand I know of in the Seattle area that carries the magazines. I would subscribe but they are weekly magazines and fairly expensive in the US.

[Ian Rance]

I have the first Reflex - with the f2 Xenon lens. It is much easier to repair than the later Reflex models as it does not have a lightmeter coupling cord.

 

If you enjoy the lens on your IIIc, give a Retina Reflex a try. If purchacing from the auction site, questions are: Does lightmeter work, is the prism clear (don't worry about dots in the finder - they are able to be cleaned out, it is two vertical bands visible in the finder that means the prism needs to be re-silvered) and also is the lens damaged and do the serial numbers match.

 

Bottom of the importance list is the shutter speeds being accurate - if you intend to use the camera, a CLA is essential before putting this model to hard use.

 

My Reflex cost me 40 Euros and a service was $100 - worked like new afterwards. For not all that much money you will have a classic, quality camera that sounds and operates sweetly - and gives wonderful results.

 

Hope I have helped,

 

Ian, UK

[kevin h. y. lui.]

I want to try a newer system, although I like the original retina reflex. What I like most it is winder of the camera. It is located at the bottom which allows me to wind faster.

 

I have not yet tried Bessamatic. Can anyone tell me the differences of their opteration?

[tony_lockerbie]

Hi Kevin. Forget the Retina Reflexes, they are prone to failure, especially the shutter and diaphragm. I have a Retina Reflex S and a Relex 1V, both have problems and no one wants to repair them. It's a great shame as they are beautiful looking cameras with excellent lenses.

The reliability thing really applies to all leaf shuttered cameras of that era, but the early Contaflexes and the Bessamatic are much better in this respect. Voigtlander's lenses are easily as good as the Retina offerings, particularly the F2 Septon.

The Ultramatic is very unreliable and you would be doing well to find one that works satisfactorily.

I would definately go with the Bessamatic, or an early Contaflex if you want one of these cameras. I have a little about the Bessamatic on my blog, just go to tonylockerbie.com and click on classic cameras, it's in 2006.

Cheers, Tony

[kerkko_kehravuo]

What about Contaflex SLR?

 

Kerkko K.

[bonsignore_ezio]

As an ownwer and user of both a Bessamatic and a Retina Reflex III I would like to offer the following comments:

 

- the Bessamatic has a better overall feeling (although that's personal) and is more reliable in use. Try to bet one of the latter models but as already said avoid the Ultramatic.

 

- lenses are a non-issue. The Retina Reflex lenses can be adapted to also work on a Bessamatic, and viceversa with a very simple modification (couple minutes work).

 

- be aware that the lenses (actually front element) for your Retina III will only work of the very early Retina Reflex, which however are not up to the late models.

[bueh]

I think the Contaflex is a great classic <abbr title="single-lens reflex camera">SLR</abbr>. While it does not really have interchangeable lenses (only a couple of Pro-Tessar front element lenses), it has a very classic feel and is typical Zeiss Ikon quality. Unfortunately, like any leaf-shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex camera">SLR</abbr>, a lot of them today have issues with their shutter or aperture mechanism and it might take a while to find a flawlessly working one. Still I would recommend them, as their standard Tessar lens produces very nice images, they are easy to find and usually less expensive than the leaf shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex camera">SLR</abbr> with "true" interchangeable lenses.

[mark_wilson4]

Bessamatic is, I find, difficult to focus in a hurry (but love the orange DOF indices!). Still, the "Color Skopar" has some inexplicable unique quality about it. The camera is a delight to carry...I feel like Matt Helm or Napolean Solo when toting it. Loud mechanism not so great for street candids. Annoying system to set the film counter (But I like the "Counting down" rather than up feature) Really cool apparatus.

 

Kerry, did you ever consider joining Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain? Matanle contributes entertainingly to every "Tailboard" newsletter. The club's journal is of even higher quality. There is an "overseas member" class. They are a delightfully eccentric bunch.

[kevin h. y. lui.]

I have thought about Contaflex, tried it and also ultramatic. I borrowed them from my friend. The ultramatic looks have very high technology but too heavy. The Contaflex is small, but when a tele-lens attached, I can feel the camera's total weight falls towards to the lens.Also, I want to try others camera bands.

 

Bonsignore, what do you mean by:

'be aware that the lenses (actually front element) for your Retina III will only work of the very early Retina Reflex, which however are not up to the late models' ?

Is that mean Retina Reflex III can only allow to change front element of the lens?

[bueh]

Why not go for an inexpensive focal-plane shutter camera with the old Exakta or M42 mount and have tons of vintage <abbr title="single-lens reflex cameras">SLRs</abbr> and lenses available? The leaf-shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex camera">SLR</abbr> field is pretty limited (Contaflex, Bessa-/Ultramatic, Retina Reflex, Paxette Reflex, Agfa Ambiflex, Mamiya Prismat...). See the dicussion <b><a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00KuJx">here</a></b>

[summitar]

I reviewed Matanle's comments and he recommends avoiding the ultramatics as being prone to failure and expensive to repair. His comments on the Retina Reflex are as reflected in the comments of other posters to this thread. I have the first version of the reflex, haven't used it yet, but Matanle claims that the xenoj lens is inferior to the tessars found on the zeiss products. Matanle definitely promotes the Bessamtic. He like s some versions of the Zeiss products but that is out of my area so I won't risk quoting him here. I will definitely look into the collectors club of GB. At my age and arthritis, I get nearly as much enjoyment reading about cameras as using them. I have two copies each of the two Matanle's classics and have just worn them out. Matanle must have another book in him. He has cost me a lot of a money (and brought me a lot of enjoyment). Thanks to him, I pursued and obtained such arcane cameras as the VITO III and the Vitessa's and the f2.0 color-skopar lens on the Vitomatic IIa.

[dan flanders]

At one time or another I have acquired several leaf shutter SLR's and have never found one that was completely satisfactory. The leaf shutter introduces several complications that are not common in focal plane SLR's. Good accessory lenses for the FP cameras are common and cheap. The supplementary front element genre which is characteristic of leaf shutter cameras are hard to acquire, limited in scope, and a PITA to maintain in operative condition.

[connealy]

It seems there is a tendency to over-generalize about problems with leaf shutter slr cameras. It is actually quite a large class with a development history spanning two decades, and there are useful distinctions to be made. Later models are more complicated and more difficult to work on. Early models are not significantly harder to get serviced than rangefinders.<br><br>

I put a high value myself on compactness, which is why the Contaflex I is probably my all-time favorite slr.<br>

<a href="http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/connealy/contaflex/0012.jpg" target="_blank">

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I'm not as likely to head out the door carrying my Bessamatic because of its weight, but the Color Skopar and Skoparex lenses are excellent.<br>

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My Retina Reflex I has the most quiet shutter of any slr I have used; the Xenon lens is identical to those on the earlier II and III rangefinder models, and probably among the finest ever made.<br>

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Let's face it; if you need to do serious professional work, you probably ought to be putting your money into a new dslr. If you enjoy shooting old cameras, there really isn't any good reason to forego owning a leaf shutter model.

[roger_randle]

For those of you in the UK, Ivor Matanle has a great regular column (about once a month, sometimes twice) in the weekly magazine Amateur Photographer on classic cameras - should be required reading for all classic camera buffs, as should his two books. I have a regular trawl through my back numbers to refresh my (failing) memory - back numbers are regularly available and indexed here in the UK.

 

Roger

[kevin h. y. lui.]

I had a classic focal-plan shutter camera before. IT is Exakta. I don't really like this camera because the shutter always failed and it is ugly.Then I sent it as a part for repair to my friend.

 

After viewing Mike Connealy 's photo. I like retina reflex's result more. The Bessamatic and Contaflex are also perfect too, but I would prefer the cocking mechanism that is at the base of the camera.

 

Which one should I choose? Retina Reflex III or IV?

[richard_oleson]

I have a Bessamatic and a Retina Reflex III. Both are in working order (at the moment) but neither is what I would consider a reliable camera. Both use the same identical shutter, both are prone to hanging up due not to the shutter itself but friction in the cocking gear trains (which is basically a shutter design flaw, but I won't bore you with details). The Retina seems to me to be a bit easier to get at the problem areas when it goes south.

 

My father bought a brand new Bessamatic, identical to mine, in the early 1960s. It failed within a year and was repaired by Voigtlander. It again failed within a year and was replaced by the then brand-new Nikkormat.

 

I guess Voigtlander's great contribution was in introducing my Dad to Nikon.... the Nikkormat lasted him the rest of his life and it's still going strong without ever being serviced.

 

Back to the question though: if you get either, try to get one that's been recently serviced. I would go with the Retina due to easier access for repair.

[kevin h. y. lui.]

I understand that.

SO I don't want to the one that is expensive. I wan to begin from a cheaper one.

[kerkko_kehravuo]

It is strange that Contaflex is often mentioned to be a trouble with it's SLR Compur structure, but never Hasselblad is blamed of the same. I have never had trouble, not with Contaflex nor with Hasselblad.

 

Kerkko K.

[kevin h. y. lui.]

Oh no, I always have troubles with Hass, but not the other same 120 SLRs. Therefore I sold it and I begin to use Mamiya RB67 .

[richard_oleson]

Admitting you had trouble with your Hasselblad is like telling friends your Prius gets lousy gas mileage or your Apple computer breaks down every 2 weeks. Some crimes go unreported......

[kevin h. y. lui.]

you mean...?

[r.c._booth]

I have a Retina IIIS (rangefinder) and had a Retina Reflex. I picked up a Bessamatic and sold the RR. I like the overall feel of the Besamatic better and could never stand the oddball shutter release of the RR. Most of my lenses (28mm to 200mm) are Retina Schneiders although I have Septon. Rather than modify each lens I modified the Bessamatic mount to use the Retina lenses. The Voigtlander lenses seem quite difficult to find other than the Color Skopar. I use the Bessamatic for occasional shooting and haven't had it overhauled but haven't had any problems with it either. rcb

[gib]

I have a Contaflex Super B and a Bessamatic, three lenses for each. They are quite similar in size weight and feel, the Bessamatic as Mr. Matanle points out has an operating feel a little closer to modern slr cameras. the Contaflex I bought from a local dealer with the 50mm lens and paid a little high, got the other lenses and the Bessamatic and its three lenses through ebay....all of this about four or five years ago now. Hard to pick between them. I like both a great deal. they goth possess a degree of high quality in manufacturing finish that feels very plush.

[Andy Collins]

I have the Retina Reflexes, 2 IV's and a III. I also acquired an Agfaflex IV which is a beautiful camera, but slower, heavier, and a bit more cumbersome to me. A question about the Retinas, though. One of the IV's has a very dirty viewfinder, so dirty that it's difficult to see through in anything other than good lighting. Is there a way to clean this without paying a fortune, or am I doomed to shooting only on sunny days with this particular camera?