Pentax 6x7 for fashion work

[alex_b.]

I was wondering the other day why there are so few threads on using

P67 for fashion work. A couple of days ago

I was looking at the diaries of a well-known fashion photographer

Sante D'Orazio and noticed he did fashion with

P67. Then I remembered Lindbergh and several others and said Hey,

why is this topic so ignored (or did I miss it

on all those numerous forums???) I fell in love with 6x7 format

during my Mamiya RZ days. However, doing

fashion on location with a 4kg RZ, Prism and Motor "Leibowitz

style" wasn't real easy. So I switched to Blad

(553ELX). Love the small cube's portability, *HATE* the format.

My other camera is an EOS. Now I am loking

for something in between - a P67 with the heavenly format and

-almost- SLR handling. I would like to hear from

anybody who does fashion (not commercial portraiture, you know,

but outdoor fashion) with P67. My choice

would be the 55, 105 and 165 lenses (max.aperture 2.8 on 165

really sounds neat). You guys from all these

forums have really frightened me with this mirror-induced shake.

I guess for fashion it is not as critical as for

landscapes. So, happy and disappointed users, ahoy!

[jack_congson4]

I shoot with an RB Pro-S with 140 mm Macro for Glamour shots. I tried a Pentax 67 at a camera shop and I must say, it has a louder mirror slap than the RB as well it is not much lighter. The Pentax 645 has better dampening and can use the same excellent lenses for the 67 with an adapter. The smaller rectangular format shouldn't be a problem with today's films I would think.

[michael_heal]

<P>Most P67 users claim that although it is an excellent camera on a sturdy tripod, it is not easy to hand-hold because it is big and both mirror <em>and shutter</em> cause significant shake. If you want to use flash, then you will be using the slower leaf-shutter lenses instead of those you mention. If not, you'll still probably want the camera on a sturdy tripod. If you work only with natural light and a tripod, the P67 would be fine, but I imagine many fashion photographers are not willing to live with these restrictions. If you really want the 6x7 format, the RZ might be a better choice. The RZ is probably actually easier to hand-hold, despite appearances.</P>

[rapfoto]

Alex,

 

Been there, done that. You mentioned D'Orazio and Lindberg, both of whom are excellent shooters, and both who have mastered the use of constant light sources. D'Orazio uses HMI lighting, while Lindberg likes hot lights [the big studio 10K�s]. They are into these BIG lights for a simple reason [technically speaking, let's put their relative aesthetic merits aside for a moment] the slow sync speed of the P67. While I doubt that either one is in-capable of using whatever camera system they wanted to, it is fact that the P67 limits your ability to do outside syncro-sun work effectively. I guess they feel that the handling of the P67 out ways the added expense [past on to the client] that these special lights cost in rental.

 

From a small guy perspective, the logistics do not merit using a camera system that utilizes such a slow sync speed, and requires such a money intensive work-around. I have sunk an enormouse amount of money into flash equipment, but it represents 1/10 the amount I would have had to spend to get the same capabilities with comperable HMI or the movie lights. I have used the P67 in the past, and have moved on to the RZ ProII.

 

Check out my web site [http://www.rapfoto.com] and tell me which ones were shot with which camera, you can't at first glance, but a closer inspection of the individual images will reveal what type of freedom I had in exposure compared to other images shot with different cameras. There were times with the P67 that I couldn�t shoot how I wanted to, because of the 1/30 sync speed. When a session is rockin�, it REALLY sucks to have equipment slow you down, and sometimes you just can�t plan around them.

 

My point is, it is not a question of the quality of image produced [all modern cameras do a great job of that] but of the restrictions imposed upon the user of a particular system. Options are your friend!! Look before you leap into the Pentax.

 

My P67 outfit consisted of 2-bodies [one with a Polaroid back permanently attached], 45, 55, 75, 90, 165, 200, 300 lenses. I now use a RZ ProII, 50, 65, 75SB, 90, 110, 140, 180 lenses, with all of the attendant crap needed to do this professionally. The Mamiya cost me a lot more than the Pentax, but it is twice the camera for this kind of work.

 

All of this is IMHO, and a result of this reviewer�s experience, your mileage may vary.

[alex_b.]

Robert,

I was literally MOVED by the design of your site. *WOW* But we must not get too far away from the topic. My Idea was of course keeping the Blad with all the lenses and my EOS as well, 'coz I need it for moving subjects, and ADITIONALLY purchasing an older 6x7 (without MLU) and above mentioned lenses for a really neat price. Let us not limit ourselves with the indoor studio shooting and P67's slow sync. For that the Blad will do. Besides, I also have a device called Flash Feeder, which powers studio flashes outside. Again, enter Blad for fill in. BUT: for my 50'' reflectors and BOUNCED naturall light with no flash outdoors I still think P67 *could* do. I know exactly what the RZII is capable - but it just couldn't become second nature having to constantly check for exp. compensation when the bellows were out or getting a Zone 0 Polaroid because I forgot the darkslide inside. The 6x7 is the way I think and I only hope the Pentax will help there. But I'll check it beforehand, of course. Keep'em coming!

[tommy_z.]

The post about constant light sources was interesting. I would think that if you are using strobes as the primary light source, the 1/30 flash sync wouldn't really be a limitation . I know for a fact that some Gucci campaigns were shot with a P67 (photographer M(something) Testino). In any case, I'm planning on getting a P67II for fashion work as well, to complement a M645.

[rapfoto]

Alex - Thanks for the kind comments. Your 'Blad + P67 combo will be a good match. I ass-u-me-d you were trading the 'Blad in on the Pentax.

 

Tommy - you need a faster sync speed [than 1/30] to balance, or most likely under expose, the ambiant [day]light while on location. Shutter speed controlls the ambiant light in a scene, while the apeture setting controlls the stobes contribution.

[moses_sparks]

Hi Alex,

 

I recently posted a response to Jason Arbogast under the Mamiya RB/RZ thread on this forum, where I named off a virtual laundry list of advantages the Mamiya holds over the Pentax.

 

I used to own the P67 system, and I used to shoot fashion professionally. I gave up both of these because they were giant pains in my hardworking ass!

 

Now I shoot celebrities with the RZ. The subjects are still a pain, but the camera has simplified my life considerably.

 

The Pentax is probably the most rugged camera around, but it is also utterly primitive when it comes to film loading, unloading, and flash. I would go so far as to say this camera is unusable with flash.

 

The one lonely leaf-shutter lens still available for it doesn't begin to solve the problem.

 

If you will never use it for anything but available light work, and you keep it permanently mounted to a tripod, it's fine.

 

Despite all the talk to the contrary, this is NOT a hand-holdable camera for anyone looking to produce sharp pictures. It has become a trendy camera for fashion shooters, but as you suggested, all the guys I know who use it also carry a modular system (i.e. Hasselblad, Mamiya) for flash work or fast paced shooting. You will not be ripping through film with a P67, reloading is slow and awkward. Guys like Sante D'Orazio and Lindberg make it work because they have 3 or 4 bodies loaded and ready to be handed to them while another assistant reloads.

 

If you are put off by the weight of the RZ, I also use the Mamiya 645 Pro system, and it is awesome in it's sheer versatility. It is easy to handhold with a prism and motordrive grip, has about the same aspect ratio as 6x7, and I really can't see much difference in image quality until I get bigger than 16x2o enlargements.

 

Food for thought...

 

I have a website containing images shot with both RZ and 645 Pro gear at www.mosessparks.com if you're interested.

 

Cheers!

[jack_malipan]

Alex,

I shoot Fashion Professionally,only daylight or/and four 250w fluorescent(Flash with P67 for masochists only), and the only time I handhold my 67II is at the 2 highest speeds-500 and 1000. Unless you are arnold schwarzenegger you will notice blur at 250 and disaster at 125. On a good tripod(The mirror is a Monster - LOCK IT!) with a bag of 2 bricks weighing down I can use it as low as 60th but at 30th, and lower, some slight but annoying shutter shake comes in. Basically I Love it and Hate it. It's cheap with fast and good lenses, but being handholdable only at such high speeds I have to bring out the dreaded Tripod(hate the slowness) or use higher speed rolls. Now I wonder...the 645N(magic mirror brake and amazing spot meter that is making a sekonic L508 redundant) for our type of work is PERFECT. Ok it's half the size neg but you get effectively 2-3 stops more speed. 50 and 64 ASA rolls in 645 format? Who needs more for editorial etc.!?

Check it out and think seriously about it, I wish I had...I won't sell

the 67 but see myself buying the 645N and using that very very very often.

Good luck

Jack Malipan

[gene_crumpler6]

In defense of the p67, I've been able to produce crisp 24x28 blowups hand held at 1/250 with the 55mm. At 1/125 the mirror shake becomes a factor. All of this depends on the focal length of the lens. My rule of thumb is to use twice the focal length to get acceptable 16x20's.

I'm a big guy, 6'4", 240lb and I find the p67 system is very workable for me. Incidently, I've also checked my mamiya TLR's for shake and I detect significant unsharpness at 1/125 hand held. A. Adams said he could not hand hold his blads at less than 1/250, so my experience is that good MF work really needs a tripod. Any good work in any format needs a tripod. I own four. A fact of life.

[Robin Smith]

I agree with Gene. I get noticeable image deterioration at speeds less than 1/250 with a 500CM and an 80mm (1/500 and a 150mm). Sharpness is not so vital with fashion and portrait work, so slower speeds can work very nicely, but you will not be getting the full performance from the camera. I would definitely prefer the RZII to the P67 because of its modularity. 1/125 handheld is workable with an RZ for fashion, possibly, but definitely not with a P67 in my opinion.

[mike_carmichael]

This thread has taken a fork in the road slightly. I was just scanning the responces until you'll started talking about hand holding certain cameras at different shutter speeds. I am amazed at the high speeds being recomended for hand held. I have been doing wedding photography for 13 years with a 500CM and NEVER gave a thought to puting it a tripod below 1/125. I get constant quality down to 1/60. Under 1/60 I mount it and park the mirror.

[alex_b.]

Well, just today I bought the used 6x7 body and put my first roll through it. Mmmmmmmmm yummy. The format is great, the handling is great, the pics are LIKE THEY SHOULD BE FOR 6x7!!! and I am glad to be on the absolutely best format again.

I took it down to our repair store, which is also authorized for Pentax and they tested the transport and shutter. The man said he had newer seen such an old camera perform so perfectly. It is a pre-MLU, that means it is more than 23 years old! All shutter speeds were spot-on, except 1/1000 which was actually 1/2000. Well, you can't have it all. The transport mechanism is so well preserwed!

I did a couple of tests with 55/3.5 (ye olde) and was, well, happy, although I know it could be sharper If only I dragged my studio tripod (Manfrotto 058 Triaut) with me.

Why am I writing this? I just wanted to bring out in each one of you that feeling of pure joy when you first got your hands on your new (or old) cameras for the first time. It was exactly like with with my first MF camera, the RZ67II. It wasn't anything like that when I got my Blad (dunno why, though).

I learned it is no use discussing the performance of various lenses, because they differ even within the same models. I also learned nobody can give you equipment advices, because you have to see it yourself. Thank you for your answers! Hope I wasn't too pathetic with this last posting, but hey, I AM a new P67 owner and proud of it!

 

Oh, yes, one more thing! Pentax 67 absolutely IS suitable for fashion work! But have another motorised, leaf-shutter polaroid-equipped second camera (RZ, Blad, Bronica or whatever) nearby. You know, just in case!

[douglas_fisher1]

Sam haskins shot Cowboy Kate(the book) with 6x7 Pentax.

The guy who shot Elle MacPhersons calander used 6x7 with the 40F4IF ED

lens and made that combo a big hit.

The 6x7 Pentax is a great system if you use tungsten, like if you

really want to see. Duffy, the british guy was into all of that.

Forget flash-it- looks phoney.

Use open shade, scrims, foamcores and lots of cine style reflectors

and you will get great images.

I shoot catalogue fashion with 3 bodies.1 for Polaroid one for the

test frame and usuakky 1 roll/garment anf things look great.

I usually shoot 400asa Fuji Provia outside and its a great combo.

cheers

douglas fish

[joel_collins]

I use the P67 and 135mm lens hand held in the studio with the flash synch speed of 1/30 with great resutls. All of the images in the portrait section of my web page were shot this way ( http://www.mindspring.com/~jwc3 ). The size, weight, and slow synch speed don't bother me. I think the biggest problem with the P67 for fashion is not having interchangable backs to do polariod test shots -- you have to buy another body and devote it to poloroid (more $$, weight, and bulk).

[bill_bowden]

Well, if the Pentax 67 is un-handholdable (not a real word, I

know), then why is it used by all those fashion photographers

and the shooters of Sports Illustrated's famed swimsuit issue? I

rented the SI 1998 swimsuit DVD, and every photographer but

one of them was shooting with a Pentax 67 handheld. And,

frankly, I thought their results were stunning! Only one of them,

Russell James, was using the big Pentax with electronic flash

and that was on the beach at night with Eva Herzigova. That must

be a rough life!

Also, Sante D'Orazio uses HMI lighting when he's shooting for

Victoria's Secret catalogs. His preferred lighting is from the sun.

He shoots almost exclusively with a Pentax 67 and 105mm lens,

and he NEVER uses a tripod, according to American Photo

magazine. (See Sept./Oct. 1995 issue for D'Orazio on HMI

lighting, and Jan./Feb. 1999 issue, page 64, for D'Orazio on

natural light and his preference for Pentax 67.) He's not the only

one. Professional fashion photographers love this camera.

Pentax 67 images grace zillions of magazine covers.

[ludwig haskins]

Re: Sam Haskins and Pentax 6x7

 

With reference to -- Douglas Fisher's comments (-- douglas

fisher, September 22, 2000; 08:25 P.M. Eastern

).

 

Sam Haskins did not shoot Cowboy Kate with P67 - he shot it on

a selection of cameras - Nikon, Linhof, Rolleiflex and

Hasselblad. He gradually migrated to P67 in the early 70's and

despite owning a wide variety of other systems including a P645,

the P67 remains a favourite of his to this day.

 

Cowboy Kate was published in 1965 and The Pentax 6x7 was

introduced in 1969.

 

I saw him shooting handheld with a P67, although he favoured a

rock solid tripod and the controlled environment of the studio.