SLR with leaf shutter?

patrick j dempsey · April 25, 2007

I was wondering if there had been any SLRs made with leaf shutters? The focal

plane shutter presents so many problems and challenges to the camera designer

and there seem to be so many great benefits to a leaf shutter design. Does

anyone know of cameras like this and have information on how they might have

functioned? Would there have been a dark-slide or light baffle behind the

mirror to block light during focusing? I could see a very slow version being a

manually actuated mirror and light-baffle... where you would focus on T, and

then close the shutter... flip up the mirror/light-baffle and then make your

exposure... flipping the mirror/light baffle back down to compose the next shot.

Any thoughts?

neal_shields · April 25, 2007

Lots, unfortunately many of my cameras are packed up right now so I can't get to them to check. It strikes me that the Retina Reflex is a good example as were most of the Zeiss 35 mm reflex cameras (Contaflex). I assume that the mirror blocks the light, the shutter closes, the mirror flips up and the shutter fires. I can't remember if these cameras have an auto return mirror or the mirror stays down till the film is wound.

The main advantage of this design is the flash sinc at all speeds. The disadvantage seems to be reliability. Most of my examples don't work or the slow speeds are way off where as much older cameras with focal plane shutters work fine.

eric friedemann · April 25, 2007

"I was wondering if there had been any SLRs made with leaf shutters?"

The Kodak Retina Reflex III had a leaf shutter and a focal plane shutter:

http://licm.org.uk/livingImage/RetinaR3.html

frank.schifano · April 25, 2007

Don't forget the Hasselblad 6x6 SLR cameras. There is a focal plane shutter at the back that remains closed while viewing through the lens. It is not adjustable for speed.

eric friedemann · April 25, 2007

Well, if we're going to get into medium format, there are the Mamiya RBs and RZs with mirrors that also block light from the film until the exposure is made.

mark_erickson · April 25, 2007

Voigtlander built Bessamatic and Ultramatic SLRs with leaf shutters built into the camera body. As I understand it, the main disadvantage with this design is that it is almost impossible to design wide angle lenses that work.

patrick j dempsey · April 25, 2007

Ahhh.... I didnt realize the Hassy style body used leaf shutter... for some reason I always thought it was a focal plane shutter. Very interesting stuff!

pico · April 25, 2007

In 35mm - Contaflex introduced as an SLR in 1955 or so. It had a capping plate behind

the mirror. It used wide-open aperture focusing. Quite a good camera. Here is the

sequence when the shutter release is hit.

1. The lens closes.

2. The diaphram closes to the preset aperture.

3. Next, the mirror goes up

4. and the capping plate follows the mirror

5. Finally, the lens opens and closes for the exposure.

Steps 1 to 4 take place in 1/50th of a second. (Our first experience with shutter lag. :))

My Contaflex has two-part lenses. The shutter and rear element are permantly attached to

the body. Then you use lenses that bayonete into that for wide, normal and long lenses.

Contaflex called them "attachments".

pico · April 25, 2007

Don't forget the Hasselblad 6x6 SLR cameras. There is a focal plane shutter at the back

that remains closed while viewing through the lens. It is not adjustable for speed.

The first Hasselblad used a focal plane shutter behind the lens, and no shutter in the

lenses.

Later Blads had leaf shutter lenses, and there were two flap-like curtains behind the lens

to

eliminate film fogging. (And later models had focal plane shutters again.)

On the 500c there was even a flash synch terminal for the rear curtains so that one could

use

shutterless lenses with flash. You could, of course, use shutterless lenses with just the rear

curtains, but it was one-speed, about 1/40th of a second (I think, not sure. Never used it.)

pico · April 25, 2007

Last notes - The Hasselblad had a "pre-fire" option. It's a button on the right side by the

winder. It closes the lens, raises the mirror and opens the rear curtains so that when the

release is pressed there is zero vibration. It's great for tripod work.

And some Contaflexes had magazine backs so you could change 35mm film mid-roll without

rewinding the cassette. They also had cassette-to-cassette setups so that rewinding was not

necessary at all.

ken_jeanette1 · April 25, 2007

I think most manufacturers made a leaf shutter camera at one time or another in the 60's. Nikon had the Auto 35, I had one of them, and it was a good camera. I believe Canon had a leaf shutter model also. I'm not sure about Konica or Minolta. I don't think I remember Pentax having one, but then we sometimes don't get every model made in the states.

grain · April 25, 2007

As you're gathering, except some noteworthy exceptions, leaf shutter slr's just stink. They're

fickle, jam, are a nightmare to fix, and other than the fact that they synch at all speeds

(usually), they offer no advantages.

ben_hutcherson · April 25, 2007

I once had a fixed lens Mamiya with a leaf shutter. Unfortunately, the shutter had jammed, and some how or another the blades had gotten torn up to the point where there was no fixing it.

Kowa also made a series of interchangeable lens 35mm SLRs, as well as their Hasselblad copy leaf-shuttered medium format SLRs. On the Kowa medium format SLRs, the dark slide stayed in place all the time and was hinged at the top of the magazine. It flipped up and out of the way with the mirror, and then flipped back down before the shutter opened back up.

Leaf shutters seemed to have caught on pretty well in medium format, but I've never heard too many things about them in 35mm.

Also, the Mamiya I mentioned above didn't have an instant return mirror. I don't know enough about other 35mm leaf shuttered SLRs to say whether or not that was true of all of them, but it was huge disadvantage on the Mamiya. Also, the Kowa medium format camera I handled didn't have an instant return mirror either.

oceanphysics · April 25, 2007

Some medium format SLR's (e.g. the Pentax 67) that are focal plane shutter cameras also have a few leaf shutter lenses.

But in general leaf shutters have a lot of issues. Fast shutter speeds aren't really possible, and the faster speeds they do offer are inaccurate and inconsistent when used at different aperture.

User_502260 · April 25, 2007

Alexander, I have a Canon EX EE. This si not a leaf shutter SLR. It has a cloth horizontally running focal plane shutter. It is sometimes confused with a leaf shutter SLR because it has interchangeable front lens element systems like some leaf shutter SLR models. I have the 50 and 35 lenses for the EX EE now, with a 125 on the way. Now I just have to find the 95 and get the meter adjusted and I'll be in business.

funkag · April 25, 2007

Canon lists a "Canonex" in its Camera Museum. I've never been able to find one at the auction site (or anywhere else).

connealy · April 25, 2007

I feel compelled to speak out in defense of my leaf shutter slr cameras. I have three: the Contaflex I, the Voigtlander Bessamatic, and the first model Retina Reflex. All of them make excellent images. My impression is that problems with these cameras are often over-stated. They represent an interesting era in camera development, and some lines like the Contaflex endured for two decades.

One of the interesting aspects of the cameras is that they blended older technology with newer developments, and thus represent an historic transitional period. Many features of these cameras are essentially the same as those found on earlier rangefinder models - the shutters being a case in point. So, if you appreciate using some of the classic rangefinders, you will likely have the same feelings about the leaf shutter slr models.

Functional problems in these cameras are more likely to arise in regard to the timing and smoothness of mirror operation and aperture stop-down. I think it is correct that the complexities of the mecanisms are less accessible to the average enthusiast, but it is possible to get a CLA on any of the cameras which will restore them to near-original operating condition. I recently had my Contaflex I tuned up by Dean Williams, and my expectation is that it is going to be working well quite a bit longer than I am.

It is worthwhile looking at some of the real pluses of these cameras, rather than getting bogged down in issues which are really not unique to them. For instance, all have extraordinary, lenses: the Color Skopar and Skoparex on the Bessamatic, the Xenon on the Retina Reflex, and the Tessar on the Contaflex. I tend to like the simpler early models, but the later ones have coupled meters and full lens interchangability. My favorite among them is the Contaflex I which has exquisite design and materials, and it is possibly the only slr ever produced which will actually fit comfortably into a jacket pocket.

bueh · April 25, 2007

Leaf-shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex cameras">SLRs</abbr> were a big thing for German 35mm camera manufacturers. Bessamatic/Ultramatic, Paxette Reflex, Retina Reflex and Ambiflex all featured interchangeable lenses with a leaf shutter mount -- and all were deliberatedly designed to be incompatible to each other. The Contaflex series were Zeiss Ikon's "serious amateur" line of SLRs, and though they had not really interchangeable lenses, they did feature a built-in leaf shutter. Agfa had not only the Ambiflex, but also the quirky fixed-lens 35mm <abbr title="twin-lens reflex camera">TLR</abbr> Flexilette, equipped with a leaf shutter, of course.

As previous posters noted, most Japanese manufacturers tried their hand at a leaf shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex camera">SLR</abbr> design, too. Noteworthy is Mamiya's attempt to do something similar to Voigtländer's Bessamatic/Ultramatic with their short-lived Prismat cameras.

Medium format systems with leaf shutters (in their lenses) are numerous: Most Hasselblad, Mamiya 6x7 format, Kowa 6, Rollei 6000, Fuji GX680, Bronica SQ, ETR and GS cameras are native leaf shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex cameras">SLRs</abbr>.

johnw436 · April 25, 2007

I have no idea how reliable leaf shutters were in the days or yore, but many medium format cameras use them. I personally love leaf shutters because the camera syncs with flash at all speeds.

Leaf shutters may be slow in some instances, but not many I can think of where you'd be using a medium format camera. (Mine all go to 1/500) Certainly not in a studio location. Maybe someone like Pico who has been around much longer than I have can correct me on this.

MTC Photography · April 25, 2007

Zeiss Ikon Contaflex Super B

Compur Rapid leaf shutter, B,1,2......500; flash sync at all speed

up to 1/500.

</center>

ralf_j. · April 25, 2007

Thought I'd put my 2 cents in this long thread as well starting with a correction, Canon EX is definitely a unique SLR from the CANON classic line up, however it is not a leaf shutter slr, it has a focal plane shutter. The only simnilarities with something like contaflex is the interchangable front lens group which allowed for different focal lengths. Ivor Matanle does not talk very favorably of them in his "Using the classic SLR's" book, however I have found them a pleasure to use and I have used a very good number of them. These are my favorites that I use on and off, Voigtlander Bessamatic, Agfaflex, and the Contaflex Super. Usually they have issues with slower speeds sticking, but then again so do most of the folders, rangefinders and TLR's that have leaf shutters, when picked up at the auction site, so nothing a good CLA can not take care of. If the problem is more complex involving the mirror, then I can see that becoming a pain and expensive to repair. Another thing considered a draw-back by some, is the non instant returning mirror in the 3 examples I mentioned, however that doesn't bother me one bit. I agree with Mr. Connealy they are a pleasure to use and together with their nice optics are excellent image makers.

john_shriver · April 25, 2007

Topcon made a long line of them. They are mostly unreliable, and hard to repair.

The challenges are substantial. To take a picture, the shutter has to close, the mirror goes up, the lens stops down, the shutter opens momentarily to make the exposure, the mirror goes down, the lens opens up, the shutter opens. All on one cock.

Also, there has to be some sort of light seal behind the mirror, so that the film doesn't get exposed.

All that complexity has a real cost in reliability and serviceability. Not to mention moving mass, and thus camera shake.

Also, to get high shutter speeds, the shutter opening is small, which significantly constrains lens design. Also, the shutter is thick, so that the lens can't start for a considerable distance out from the film. Much more severe retrofocus on wide-angle lenses. So you wind up with big lenses, which aren't fast, and in many cases, aren't all that sharp. (All the other Topcor lenses have very good reputation, but the UV series Topcors for the leaf-shutter Topcons have a middling reputation at best. Some tests in Camera 35 were pretty awful!)

Leaf shutters are great in fixed-lens rangefinders, but not in 35mm SLRs.

There's one wonderful set of focal plane cameras with "any speed" X flash sync -- the Olympus Pen F, FT, and FV half-frame SLRs. Rotary blade titanium shutter!

pico · April 25, 2007

The challenges are substantial. To take a picture, the shutter has to close, the mirror

goes up, the lens stops down, the shutter opens momentarily to make the exposure, the

mirror goes down, the lens opens up, the shutter opens.

Close. Add one step: The mirror goes up and the film cap follows.

Also, the shutter is thick, so that the lens can't start for a considerable distance out

from the film.

Nope! That's not even true in LF leaf shutter lenses. There can be plenty of lens behind the

shutter. Contaflex is an example. No problem.

Much more severe retrofocus on wide-angle lenses. So you wind up with big lenses

You really must see a Contaflex in person. The lenses are not large.

patrick j dempsey · April 25, 2007

Wow, awesome responses guys... I appreciate Mike coming to the rescue of these cameras... alot of the gripes people seem to have deal with the limitations and crankiness of the leaf shutter itself... Im a big fan of folders so I really didnt buy it. Although cranky, ive rebuilt a few Compurs and I am just really fascinated by their design, just beauitful little machines! It looks as if the main disadvantage is getting the leaf shutter to work in conjunction with a mirror and a dark slide... must have been some REALLY impressive mechanisms for 35mm cameras. It seems like having the rear element fixed to the shutter would be the best design... since this is just the columnating element anyway! Really fascinating stuff. Thanks for the generous responses guys!

donnie_strickland · April 25, 2007

I have and use a Kowa SETR2 35mm leaf-shutter SLR that I assembled, with the help of Rick Oleson's Tech Notes CD, from 3 non-working models. These cameras have a light trap/capping plate as discussed above. I noticed in all 3 cases, when I disassembled the cameras, that dirt or grit had jammed the shutters and then at some point someone had forced the advance and broken something.

No doubt leaf-shutter SLRs are more complex; they have more moving parts. But I don't feel the Kowas are difficult to work on. In some ways they are easier than a focal-plane camera: to work on the shutter, you simply remove the whole thing from the front and you can clean, etc.

I notice no shutter lag at all. Perhaps the Contaflexes were more pronounced; I haven't used one of those.

All speeds, 1 sec. to 1/500, seem to be right at all apertures (based on shooting slide film).

I don't notice camera shake being any more pronounced with the Kowa. But this is an individual, subjective opinion. As I say I have only used a Kowa when it comes to leaf shutter SLRs. They sure are fun, though. In lenses, I have the 35, 50, 135 and 200. The 200 is ENORMOUS. The 35 and 50 are about average in size.

Oh, and one more thing: the shutter and capping plate are LOUD!

Hope this helps.

connealy · April 25, 2007

Just to keep things in perspective, here a few shots from my Contaflex I before the CLA:

</center>

winfried_buechsenschuetz1 · April 26, 2007

"Bessamatic/Ultramatic, Paxette Reflex, Retina Reflex and Ambiflex all featured interchangeable lenses with a leaf shutter mount -- and all were deliberatedly designed to be incompatible to each other."

As far as these cameras have Compur shutters, the bayonets of their lens can be made more or less compatible. The basic design of the bayonet is always the same (designed by the shutter manufacturer), but some notches and tabs were added by some manufacturers just to sell their own lenses to the camera owners.

I think Rick Oleson has some instructions on his fabulous website how to convert Compur mount lenses.

BTW, I once owned a (fixed-lens) Kowa and I have a Topcon Uni with a complete set of lenses (including a third-party tele converter and close-up lenses for the 200mm lens which focusses down to 5m/15ft. only). I found the Topcon easier to fix than the Kowa. The Kowa have a coupling system between the lens settings and the meter readings which gets out of sync as soon as you lift the front plate to get access to the shutter, and it is not easy to get the coupling system back together again. The Topcon Uni was running right from the start (bought it on a flea market) and the Kowa worked flawless after cleaning the shutter gears (slow speeds were gummed).

john carter · April 26, 2007

Here is a photo of a Topcon Unirex. I still use and have a 28mm and a 135mm to go with it. $14.50 each on Ebay (for the lenses). I ran a roll thru it last weekend. As been posted the only advantage is syn to 500th.

http://www.photo.net/photo/4301569

chuck_foreman1 · April 26, 2007

Hi All,

I'm enjoying the discussion. For any german readers a releted article I read recently from Frank Mechelhoff titled "West German Camera makers: How they lost to Japan" shows how these were cutting edge designs that were widely respected but gave way to the easier

to build and develop/exploit SLR. He had these cutaways views

FYR<div></div>

chuck_foreman1 · April 26, 2007

Hi All,

Another cutaway view from Frank Mechelhoff's article titled "West German Camera makers: How they lost to Japan"

FYR<div></div>

richard_oleson · April 26, 2007

Wow.

"The focal plane shutter presents so many problems and challenges to the camera designer and there seem to be so many great benefits to a leaf shutter design"

I'm not sure, but I think that might be the most inverse-logic sentence that I've read relating to cameras since Pop Photo's 1946 prediction of masses of Japanese rushing to buy American cameras.

In a focal plane SLR release sequence, the mirror goes up and the shutter travels... the mirror may or may not come back down. In a leaf shutter SLR, the shutter closes, the lens stops down, the mirror goes up, the light baffle goes up, the shutter opens and then the shutter closes again... if you have an instant return mirror, the light baffle has to close again and the shutter and diaphragm both reopen. Based on word count alone the leaf shutter approach is much more of a challenge. Add interchangeable lenses and you add the challenge of passing the light bundle of every lens in your kit through a 20mm diameter hole in the shutter (ever wonder why a Bessamatic's 135 lens won't focus closer than 13 feet, or why a Kowa's 135mm f/4 lens has a 67mm filter size?)

Add to all this a West German coupled light meter system and you've got a mechanical system that's like a self-guiding our of Byzantium.

The net benefit for all this: flash synch to 1/500 second.

All leaf shutter SLRs are interesting machines, and some (notably the Kowas) are very well designed and quite reliable. But relieving the designer of 'problems and challenges' was NEVER one of their virtues.

ben_hutcherson · April 26, 2007

Are there any 35mm leaf shutter SLRs which have the shutter as part of the interchangeable lens design like Hasselblad and everyone else does with their medium format SLRs?

It seems as though this would alleviate the problem of having all lenses have the same size rear element, at the expense of more connections between the camera and the lens.

Is that just one of those things which works in larger formats but doesn't scale down very well to smaller formats?

david_m · April 26, 2007

Topcon Unirex, Uni and Auto 100 has a sector shutter, not a leaf shutter.

richard_oleson · April 27, 2007

I can't think of any, Ben. I think the added cost of having to buy a shutter every time you want to add a lens was probably prohibitive in the price class where 35mm leaf shutter SLRs were able to compete. Bulk would probably have been an issue too, you can't easily scale a shutter down to make it fit within, say, a 50/1.8 lens barrel without leaving a noticeable bulge. In medium format there was more real estate and more money to work with .... as well as a professional user who was more willing and able to learn the correct operating sequence for the various linkages (shutter cocked/mirror cocked etc) to make it all work right without breaking something. Your average 35mm snapshooter can't usually handle much of that, and the 35mm press shooters don't have time.

winfried_buechsenschuetz1 · April 27, 2007

"Topcon Unirex, Uni and Auto 100 has a sector shutter, not a leaf shutter."

I think I read this before - maybe from the same author, and it is as false as it used to be. At least the sample of Topcon Uni I have clearly shows 5 shutter blades. The shutter is made by Copal, they never made sector shutters.

I just looked it up - yes, it was David M. who wrote this years ago. Did he never have a look at his camera with the lens off????

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