SLR with leaf shutter?

[patrick j dempsey]

I was wondering if there had been any SLRs made with leaf shutters? The focal

plane shutter presents so many problems and challenges to the camera designer

and there seem to be so many great benefits to a leaf shutter design. Does

anyone know of cameras like this and have information on how they might have

functioned? Would there have been a dark-slide or light baffle behind the

mirror to block light during focusing? I could see a very slow version being a

manually actuated mirror and light-baffle... where you would focus on T, and

then close the shutter... flip up the mirror/light-baffle and then make your

exposure... flipping the mirror/light baffle back down to compose the next shot.

Any thoughts?

[neal_shields]

Lots, unfortunately many of my cameras are packed up right now so I can't get to them to check. It strikes me that the Retina Reflex is a good example as were most of the Zeiss 35 mm reflex cameras (Contaflex). I assume that the mirror blocks the light, the shutter closes, the mirror flips up and the shutter fires. I can't remember if these cameras have an auto return mirror or the mirror stays down till the film is wound.

 

The main advantage of this design is the flash sinc at all speeds. The disadvantage seems to be reliability. Most of my examples don't work or the slow speeds are way off where as much older cameras with focal plane shutters work fine.

[eric friedemann]

"I was wondering if there had been any SLRs made with leaf shutters?"

 

 

The Kodak Retina Reflex III had a leaf shutter and a focal plane shutter:

 

 

http://licm.org.uk/livingImage/RetinaR3.html

[frank.schifano]

Don't forget the Hasselblad 6x6 SLR cameras. There is a focal plane shutter at the back that remains closed while viewing through the lens. It is not adjustable for speed.

[eric friedemann]

Well, if we're going to get into medium format, there are the Mamiya RBs and RZs with mirrors that also block light from the film until the exposure is made.

[mark_erickson]

Voigtlander built Bessamatic and Ultramatic SLRs with leaf shutters built into the camera body. As I understand it, the main disadvantage with this design is that it is almost impossible to design wide angle lenses that work.

[patrick j dempsey]

Ahhh.... I didnt realize the Hassy style body used leaf shutter... for some reason I always thought it was a focal plane shutter. Very interesting stuff!

[pico]

In 35mm - Contaflex introduced as an SLR in 1955 or so. It had a capping plate behind

the mirror. It used wide-open aperture focusing. Quite a good camera. Here is the

sequence when the shutter release is hit.

<p>

1. The lens closes.<br>

2. The diaphram closes to the preset aperture.<br>

3. Next, the mirror goes up<br>

4. and the capping plate follows the mirror<br>

5. Finally, the lens opens and closes for the exposure.<p>

Steps 1 to 4 take place in 1/50th of a second. (Our first experience with shutter lag. :))<p>

My Contaflex has two-part lenses. The shutter and rear element are permantly attached to

the body. Then you use lenses that bayonete into that for wide, normal and long lenses.

Contaflex called them "attachments".

[pico]

<i>Don't forget the Hasselblad 6x6 SLR cameras. There is a focal plane shutter at the back

that remains closed while viewing through the lens. It is not adjustable for speed.</i><p>

The first Hasselblad used a focal plane shutter behind the lens, and no shutter in the

lenses.<p>

Later Blads had leaf shutter lenses, and there were two flap-like curtains behind the lens

to

eliminate film fogging. (And later models had focal plane shutters again.) <p>

On the 500c there was even a flash synch terminal for the rear curtains so that one could

use

shutterless lenses with flash. You could, of course, use shutterless lenses with just the rear

curtains, but it was one-speed, about 1/40th of a second (I think, not sure. Never used it.)

<p>

[pico]

Last notes - The Hasselblad had a "pre-fire" option. It's a button on the right side by the

winder. It closes the lens, raises the mirror and opens the rear curtains so that when the

release is pressed there is zero vibration. It's great for tripod work. <p>

And some Contaflexes had magazine backs so you could change 35mm film mid-roll without

rewinding the cassette. They also had cassette-to-cassette setups so that rewinding was not

necessary at all.

[ken_jeanette1]

I think most manufacturers made a leaf shutter camera at one time or another in the 60's. Nikon had the Auto 35, I had one of them, and it was a good camera. I believe Canon had a leaf shutter model also. I'm not sure about Konica or Minolta. I don't think I remember Pentax having one, but then we sometimes don't get every model made in the states.

[grain]

As you're gathering, except some noteworthy exceptions, leaf shutter slr's just stink. They're

fickle, jam, are a nightmare to fix, and other than the fact that they synch at all speeds

(usually), they offer no advantages.

[ben_hutcherson]

I once had a fixed lens Mamiya with a leaf shutter. Unfortunately, the shutter had jammed, and some how or another the blades had gotten torn up to the point where there was no fixing it.

 

Kowa also made a series of interchangeable lens 35mm SLRs, as well as their Hasselblad copy leaf-shuttered medium format SLRs. On the Kowa medium format SLRs, the dark slide stayed in place all the time and was hinged at the top of the magazine. It flipped up and out of the way with the mirror, and then flipped back down before the shutter opened back up.

 

Leaf shutters seemed to have caught on pretty well in medium format, but I've never heard too many things about them in 35mm.

 

Also, the Mamiya I mentioned above didn't have an instant return mirror. I don't know enough about other 35mm leaf shuttered SLRs to say whether or not that was true of all of them, but it was huge disadvantage on the Mamiya. Also, the Kowa medium format camera I handled didn't have an instant return mirror either.

[oceanphysics]

Some medium format SLR's (e.g. the Pentax 67) that are focal plane shutter cameras also have a few leaf shutter lenses.

 

But in general leaf shutters have a lot of issues. Fast shutter speeds aren't really possible, and the faster speeds they do offer are inaccurate and inconsistent when used at different aperture.

[User_502260]

Alexander, I have a Canon EX EE. This si not a leaf shutter SLR. It has a cloth horizontally running focal plane shutter. It is sometimes confused with a leaf shutter SLR because it has interchangeable front lens element systems like some leaf shutter SLR models. I have the 50 and 35 lenses for the EX EE now, with a 125 on the way. Now I just have to find the 95 and get the meter adjusted and I'll be in business.

[funkag]

Canon lists a "Canonex" in its Camera Museum. I've never been able to find one at the auction site (or anywhere else).

[connealy]

I feel compelled to speak out in defense of my leaf shutter slr cameras. I have three: the Contaflex I, the Voigtlander Bessamatic, and the first model Retina Reflex. All of them make excellent images. My impression is that problems with these cameras are often over-stated. They represent an interesting era in camera development, and some lines like the Contaflex endured for two decades.<br>

    One of the interesting aspects of the cameras is that they blended older technology with newer developments, and thus represent an historic transitional period. Many features of these cameras are essentially the same as those found on earlier rangefinder models - the shutters being a case in point. So, if you appreciate using some of the classic rangefinders, you will likely have the same feelings about the leaf shutter slr models.<br>

    Functional problems in these cameras are more likely to arise in regard to the timing and smoothness of mirror operation and aperture stop-down. I think it is correct that the complexities of the mecanisms are less accessible to the average enthusiast, but it is possible to get a CLA on any of the cameras which will restore them to near-original operating condition. I recently had my Contaflex I tuned up by Dean Williams, and my expectation is that it is going to be working well quite a bit longer than I am.<br>

    It is worthwhile looking at some of the real pluses of these cameras, rather than getting bogged down in issues which are really not unique to them. For instance, all have extraordinary, lenses: the Color Skopar and Skoparex on the Bessamatic, the Xenon on the Retina Reflex, and the Tessar on the Contaflex. I tend to like the simpler early models, but the later ones have coupled meters and full lens interchangability. My favorite among them is the Contaflex I which has exquisite design and materials, and it is possibly the only slr ever produced which will actually fit comfortably into a jacket pocket.

[bueh]

Leaf-shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex cameras">SLRs</abbr> were a big thing for German 35mm camera manufacturers. Bessamatic/Ultramatic, Paxette Reflex, Retina Reflex and Ambiflex all featured interchangeable lenses with a leaf shutter mount -- and all were <i>deliberatedly</i> designed to be incompatible to each other. The Contaflex series were Zeiss Ikon's "serious amateur" line of SLRs, and though they had not really interchangeable lenses, they did feature a built-in leaf shutter. Agfa had not only the Ambiflex, but also the quirky fixed-lens 35mm <abbr title="twin-lens reflex camera">TLR</abbr> Flexilette, equipped with a leaf shutter, of course.

<p>

As previous posters noted, most Japanese manufacturers tried their hand at a leaf shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex camera">SLR</abbr> design, too. Noteworthy is Mamiya's attempt to do something similar to Voigtländer's Bessamatic/Ultramatic with their short-lived Prismat cameras.

<p>

Medium format systems with leaf shutters (in their lenses) are numerous: Most Hasselblad, Mamiya 6x7 format, Kowa 6, Rollei 6000, Fuji GX680, Bronica SQ, ETR and GS cameras are native leaf shutter <abbr title="single-lens reflex cameras">SLRs</abbr>.

[johnw436]

I have no idea how reliable leaf shutters were in the days or yore, but many medium format cameras use them. I personally love leaf shutters because the camera syncs with flash at all speeds.

 

Leaf shutters may be slow in some instances, but not many I can think of where you'd be using a medium format camera. (Mine all go to 1/500) Certainly not in a studio location. Maybe someone like Pico who has been around much longer than I have can correct me on this.

[MTC Photography]

<center>

<img src="http://www.photo.net/bboard-uploads/00KuEY-36208484.JPG"width=400><P>

Zeiss Ikon Contaflex Super B<p>

Compur Rapid leaf shutter, B,1,2......500; flash sync at all speed

up to 1/500.

</center>

[ralf_j.]

Thought I'd put my 2 cents in this long thread as well starting with a correction, Canon EX is definitely a unique SLR from the CANON classic line up, however it is not a leaf shutter slr, it has a focal plane shutter. The only simnilarities with something like contaflex is the interchangable front lens group which allowed for different focal lengths. Ivor Matanle does not talk very favorably of them in his "Using the classic SLR's" book, however I have found them a pleasure to use and I have used a very good number of them. These are my favorites that I use on and off, Voigtlander Bessamatic, Agfaflex, and the Contaflex Super. Usually they have issues with slower speeds sticking, but then again so do most of the folders, rangefinders and TLR's that have leaf shutters, when picked up at the auction site, so nothing a good CLA can not take care of. If the problem is more complex involving the mirror, then I can see that becoming a pain and expensive to repair. Another thing considered a draw-back by some, is the non instant returning mirror in the 3 examples I mentioned, however that doesn't bother me one bit. I agree with Mr. Connealy they are a pleasure to use and together with their nice optics are excellent image makers.

[john_shriver]

Topcon made a long line of them. They are mostly unreliable, and hard to repair.

 

The challenges are substantial. To take a picture, the shutter has to close, the mirror goes up, the lens stops down, the shutter opens momentarily to make the exposure, the mirror goes down, the lens opens up, the shutter opens. All on one cock.

 

Also, there has to be some sort of light seal behind the mirror, so that the film doesn't get exposed.

 

All that complexity has a real cost in reliability and serviceability. Not to mention moving mass, and thus camera shake.

 

Also, to get high shutter speeds, the shutter opening is small, which significantly constrains lens design. Also, the shutter is thick, so that the lens can't start for a considerable distance out from the film. Much more severe retrofocus on wide-angle lenses. So you wind up with big lenses, which aren't fast, and in many cases, aren't all that sharp. (All the other Topcor lenses have very good reputation, but the UV series Topcors for the leaf-shutter Topcons have a middling reputation at best. Some tests in Camera 35 were pretty awful!)

 

Leaf shutters are great in fixed-lens rangefinders, but not in 35mm SLRs.

 

There's one wonderful set of focal plane cameras with "any speed" X flash sync -- the Olympus Pen F, FT, and FV half-frame SLRs. Rotary blade titanium shutter!

[pico]

<i>The challenges are substantial. To take a picture, the shutter has to close, the mirror

goes up, the lens stops down, the shutter opens momentarily to make the exposure, the

mirror goes down, the lens opens up, the shutter opens.</i><p>

Close. Add one step: The mirror goes up and the film cap follows.<p>

<i>Also, the shutter is thick, so that the lens can't start for a considerable distance out

from the film. </i><p>

 

Nope! That's not even true in LF leaf shutter lenses. There can be plenty of lens behind the

shutter. Contaflex is an example. No problem.

<p>

<i>Much more severe retrofocus on wide-angle lenses. So you wind up with big lenses

</i><p>

You really must see a Contaflex in person. The lenses are not large.

[patrick j dempsey]

Wow, awesome responses guys... I appreciate Mike coming to the rescue of these cameras... alot of the gripes people seem to have deal with the limitations and crankiness of the leaf shutter itself... Im a big fan of folders so I really didnt buy it. Although cranky, ive rebuilt a few Compurs and I am just really fascinated by their design, just beauitful little machines! It looks as if the main disadvantage is getting the leaf shutter to work in conjunction with a mirror and a dark slide... must have been some REALLY impressive mechanisms for 35mm cameras. It seems like having the rear element fixed to the shutter would be the best design... since this is just the columnating element anyway! Really fascinating stuff. Thanks for the generous responses guys!

[donnie_strickland]

I have and use a Kowa SETR2 35mm leaf-shutter SLR that I assembled, with the help of Rick Oleson's Tech Notes CD, from 3 non-working models. These cameras have a light trap/capping plate as discussed above. I noticed in all 3 cases, when I disassembled the cameras, that dirt or grit had jammed the shutters and then at some point someone had forced the advance and broken something.

 

No doubt leaf-shutter SLRs are more complex; they have more moving parts. But I don't feel the Kowas are difficult to work on. In some ways they are easier than a focal-plane camera: to work on the shutter, you simply remove the whole thing from the front and you can clean, etc.

 

I notice no shutter lag at all. Perhaps the Contaflexes were more pronounced; I haven't used one of those.

 

All speeds, 1 sec. to 1/500, seem to be right at all apertures (based on shooting slide film).

 

I don't notice camera shake being any more pronounced with the Kowa. But this is an individual, subjective opinion. As I say I have only used a Kowa when it comes to leaf shutter SLRs. They sure are fun, though. In lenses, I have the 35, 50, 135 and 200. The 200 is ENORMOUS. The 35 and 50 are about average in size.

 

Oh, and one more thing: the shutter and capping plate are LOUD!

 

Hope this helps.