processing C-41 color negatives in E-6

[virginia_kesta]

hello there,

 

For a long time I have been doing indeed some "usual" cross-processing (slides

in C-41), and after having seen really stunning results the opposite way

(negatives in E-6), I definitely want to give it a try.

 

After some hard research on the web + photo.net forums, I have found pretty

different points of view.

 

Some say the film would systematically come out with a blue/red cast veil, or a

typical yellow-orange mask. But, fortunately, some others decided to work the

process out and discovered that when associating a good overexposing/pushing

with appropriate film and appropriate filter(s), the results are great.

 

By great I mean there is NO OVERALL COLOR MASK of any kind so the full range of

initial colors remains. In addition, contrast becomes very high AS WELL AS

saturation (which usually lacks in this kind of x-pro). You get a very clear,

stunning, bright slide that respects color repartition.

 

Now, I am a young amateur photographer and I have no much money to spend in

doing blind tests in a darkroom I don't even have, but I konw some of you guys

successed in achieving more than satisfying results with this "unusual" process.

I spend a lot of time in photography and have no will but enjoying it in its

full diversity of aesthetics. Thanks a lot

[doug_axford1]

I don't know of a pro lab owner who would run a c-41 film through E6 chemistry. Not worth it for $2. profit. I've never seen a C-41 without the mask, no matter how it was processed.

 

If you don't have a darkroom, why not simply experiment with strange effects in Photoshop. You can play all day without paying for trial & error.

[virginia_kesta]

Well, photoshop is another story. I don't want to talk about what photography really is but anyway you cannot get quality results in digital if you don't invest in rather expensive equipments. I've already got my trustable gear, virtually able of producing everything.

 

You are probably right about pro labs, they won't provide those processing. But in the case they would I would like to be able to tell what I want them to do.

 

Anyway, as well as for B&W (which I mostly do), best results (meaning personally satisying) can rather be achieved in your own darkroom.

So having mine is not excluded as long as I've got a starting point to avoid spending in tests, which I think would be a waste of money for people may already know how to do what I also want to do. I think I could deal with B&W, but for color processing...

 

Of course if I cannot find someone to share I'll try myself from the beginning but I just hope someone would help me starting on this issue.

[rowland_mowrey]

Virginia;

 

Cross processing a masked color negative film in E6 will yield a low contrast desaturated image with an orange mask unless it is fogged somehow in which case the fog might yield a neutral dmin.

 

I have done this many times and have such 'slides' here. I'm surprised you claim that there is no orange dmin, as this is built into the film itself and cannot be removed easily. E6 is not designed to remove this Dmin.

 

Ron Mowrey

[virginia_kesta]

Hi Ron

 

I am sorry I did not provide samples of what I am asking for. I konw a lot of people tried the processing without any satisfying results. Like you, I would neither believe such thing possible but by seeing the slides.

 

Here they are :

 

-copyright hold by Mona Chrome, photo.net member:

http://www.photo.net/bboard-uploads/00Hb2x-31663784.jpg

 

-copyright hold by Dyson, lomography.com member :

http://pictures.lomography.com/pix/p120505/3c4dbee78eeeab03/UL_798919_11192891392_x.jpg

[rowland_mowrey]

Virginia;

 

Those are more typical of E6 film cross processed in C41 than the reverse. Are you sure that is not the case?

 

C41 films are what are called 'coupler limited' films which are designed to give very low contrast and long tone scale with very good grain and sharpness. In E6 they are still limited by the amount of coupler and give very low contrast images.

 

So, you may have negatives FROM E6 film.

 

Ron Mowrey

[virginia_kesta]

Hi Ron,

 

You already have participated in a thread explaining great results of C-41 in E-6 was possible. Mona Chrome posted these pictures in the same thread, among others.

 

Either you don't pay attention to people's expectations or you are just enjoying being pessimistic. Besides, do you seriously think it looks like some E-6 in C-41 cross-processing here?

 

I didn't ask for people saying it's not possible. Rather for people interested in how it can be achieved and therefore helping me.

Please read the 'Community Standards' posting section

 

Thanks for all your contributions.

[James G. Dainis]

Virginia,<BR>

Ron was a researcher for 32 years at Eastman Kodak with 15 years in

emulsion work and 15 years product development and has over a dozen patents. When he says that the orange mask can't be removed from negative film in cross processing, I would tend to believe him. Can you provide a link to the thread in which you say it has been done?

[virginia_kesta]

James,

 

Wherever someone comes from, I don't think it is of any help to deny picture evidences just because something is not supposed to happen, all the more as we are talking about chemicals here.

 

I appreciate to be warned if being mistaken, though it is not helping to keep repeating it.

 

Let's just stop to say this x-pro is not possible and let's focus on HOW it can/could be done (at least assume it is possible so we can work it out).

 

Here are the links of the threads I was talking about :

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Haaf

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000OVY

 

Thanks

[rowland_mowrey]

Virginia;

 

Note please that Scott Eaton's post in the second reference you give agrees with my comments above. Scott and I often don't see eye to eye, but on this we agree. Also note that in the first reference, one person posts a high contrast C41 in E6 and a high contrast E6 in C41 that look pretty similar to my eye. These two posts are contradictory to what I (and others) have experienced, and I chose not to comment because the post between them shows the normal low contrast result that is to be expected. Please also note the comment by Bueh B to the effect that the dmin was yellowish.

 

You can doctor cross processed C41 film in E6 in Photo shop to look like what has been shown, but I seriously doubt if you can get a transparency with a clean white dmin. The C41 film itself contains an orange azo dye which cannot be removed except with a strong organic solvent. It also contains only enough coupler to achieve a dmax of about 3.0 over dmin, whereas E6 films contain enough coupler to attain a dmax of over 4.0. This difference alone precludes the saturation you might expect to see. I would also like to add that the E6 developer contains dmax reducing chemistry to match E6 films but which can overwhelm C41 films, as they themselves contain chemistry to reduce contrast. The resulting combination results in what I describe.

 

I encourage you to try and try again until you get what you want, but I really doubt if you will get that unless you Shop it heavily. OTOH, E6 in C41 can give truly stunning results, and I agree with all who have posted that same conclusion.

 

I also don't deny that you can alter results either by Shopping or by push processing to change tone scale and speed as well as color. You may want to look again at the picture of the top and the bike picture and observe that the dmin is yellowish, giving you a hint that all is not right there whatever may have taken place.

 

I urge you to take a picture of a step chart in one of your frames to see if you can reproduce a truly neutral scale with white or black.

 

And, BTW, Kodak did a lot of research using a C41 type color film design in E6 processing to get low contrast, masked color positive intermediates for duplication. So I'm quite familiar with this type of manipulation.

 

I wish you the best.

 

Ron Mowrey

[virginia_kesta]

Thank you for your detailed response Ron.

 

I am more convinced than before that it is very difficult to get clear negatives in E-6. If it is possible it seems like I'll have to make my own experiences...

 

Anyway, my point in trying this specific process was to perform a new form of film 'colorisation' that appeared very different from 'classic' slide in C-41, which was less and less attractive to me. Negatives in E-6 seemed to enjoy a more complete range of colors and to avoid an overall, heavy veil of either green, red, or even blue.

 

It seems that those 'imperfections' can be controlled or adjusted so that color fidelity is improved while still having this special style of cross-process. I will write a new thread in order to get answers about that.

 

Thank you

[khatri]

Hello, I just tried this with old kodak vps film in patterson E-6 kit. Here is the result from negative scan with some contrast increase in photoshop.

<br>

<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/5880529">http://www.photo.net/photo/5880529</a>

<br>

I also tried newer porta 160vc. Results are almost same with same blue overall tone but a little less contrast. I think a 2-3 stops push should be somewhat better, after seeing other posts, but I don't know if the blue tone can be taken care of with some filters. Other colors are present but are masked by the very strong blue tone.

[ed_ralph]

Do you not perhaps mean that the orange-brown mask can be removed from prints rather than the film itself? As other no doubt much more experienced posters in this field have said, removing the orange mask from the actual film is for practical purposes impossible.

 

If I processed a C41 film in E6 chemistry I would scan it as a colour negative (to remove the orange mask) and then invert it to turn it back into a positive image. I believe that this the usual way of doing C41 in E6.